PACK15NISSAN

At this point in time we have no intentions on splitting the pack, we will thin out some, but no matter what we have worked hard to have a strong pack and don't plan on handing half of it over.

What I meant by the statement they don't "show well" is that there presenation of themselves comes across a little brash. The husband is unshaven most of the time, they don't iron their uniforms and only wear part of it (that is all they can afford), and they smell like cigerette smoke (they don't smoke around any of the boys though).

Is it fair for us to tell these leaders who have worked hard to become trained and stepped when no one else would that they need to step down because other parents don't care for their appearance?

We have already spoke with each set of parents individually and the consensus is the leaders don't appear to know what they are doing. One parent even said the leaders come across "creepy" and make them "uneasy". I explained they are trained, the not only know what they are doing but do a great job ensuring the boys advance and enjoy scouting but it doesn't seem to matter. These parents simply don't want their boys in that den.

If we let the parents/boys choose we have one den with about 20 boys, one den with 2-3, and another with 2-3. The boys in the den that everyone wants to be in where in the same den last year, so we want to keep those 8-10 boys together. I don't see a way around talking to the leaders and putting our foot down with the parents.

Perhaps I was not clear.

The boys father told his old pack did not use internet advancement and therefore his advancement would not be on ScoutNet.

I don't know how the old council worked but the dad told me that he already tried to get the paperwork from the previous council and they don't have it.

He should have a card for each activity pin and his rank right? I think I am going to ask if he has those and get copies of them. Of course this will mean that any partial badges will be lost but I guess that is the penalty for losing his book.

You can always tell when scouts start back up again because the problems just roll in with the boys.

Our pack has grown significantly this year to 110-120 boys compared to around 60-70 last year. With that growth we are having to make multiple dens at each rank. Currently we have 2 (working on a third) Tiger dens, 2 Wolfs (possibly needing a third), 3 Bears, 2 Webelos 1's (need a third but probably won't happen), and are at the breaking point for 2 Webelos 2 dens.

I am the WDL, also the ACM, and will end up being the CM when my Webelos 2's cross over in February. I say that so you know that I have a stake in this converstation and a role with solving the problem.

Our problem begins in the Bears, where we had 2 dens for the first 3 meetings, which was through last night. We identified a leader and where working on splitting the boys up when our current CM makes a comment that several parents in "Den 2" (second Bear den) called him on his cell phone throughout the week past and said they wanted to be switched to "Den 1" because they didn't like the leaders in "Den 2". The leaders of "Den 2" are trained and actually have more training than a lot of our other leaders and there is no issue with them doing something wrong or with the program, these parents simply stated they didn't like the leaders and they got a bad vibe from them.

These leaders where the only parents to step up when the boys where Tigers (about 10 boys at the time), so they experience with Cub Scouts under their belts. Our CM bought us a week to work on the problem by telling the parents we where in the process of splitting from 2 dens to 3.

My inital reaction is since there is no safety or program problems that the parents should not be allowed to switch. I would prefer to tell them nicely that if they wish to talk to leaders of Den 2 with the CM, ACM (myself), the CC, and/or the COR we can arrange that. Second option if they don't want to that is they can sign up as DL's and help out. Third is move down the road because these people stepped up when no one else would and have a heart for scouting they just don't "show well".

Has anyone ever had this problem? What should we do?

I have a transfer that just joined my Webelos 2 den, he moved here from out of state. His dad said they searched high and low but somehow in the move their book got lost. He asked me what kind of proof that his son achieved certain badges and achievements he needed to provide me with.

His son has activity badge pins on his Webelos colors and his Webelos Badge on his uniform but other than that they have no way really prove what he has done. Of course he said the pack he came from was small and did not use internet advancement which would provide digital proof.

My response to him was to tell him that a scout is honest and trustworthy, and expect that a parent should be too, especially one that wants his son to learn those type of morals. Then I told him to have the old WDL to email with what he earned and that would work for me. He then informed me that having the former WDL email might be a problem but he would see what he could do.

I know of people want to cheat then they will and if where any other badge besides AOL it probably wouldn't bother me as much (it would still bother me though). I just don't want to think that I gave Cub Scouts highest honor to someone who doesn't deserve it. I have no reason to think he would lie but we have only had 2 meetings so I really don't know the dad well enough to assume either way.

Is there a better way to handle this?

Obviously the ideal situation is to coordinate schedules to parents/boys don't have to choose. If you do have a den campout and a pack campout on the same date then parents with boys in other ages group will probably end up taking their boys to the pack, if that is even an issue.

Realisticly and practically speaking, to me a den campout for Webelos is far better than a pack campout. They are more focused around the Webelos, what they want and are able to do and toward their advancement. It also allows the boys to bound more as a patrol and get them ready for Boy Scouts which is a WDL's goal.

This is why all leaders attend the calendar planning sessions in our Pack and perhaps you can do this in the future. However, for now I would just go on as planned.

John,

Our COR is a paper figure only, we only see maybe once or twice a year. The only time he steps in is when there is a problem with the scouts and the facility.

It is not our packs job to help another pack start up. I agree that if there are enough parents and boys to start a new pack that is closer for them then to do it. But for us to use our resources to help them do this, especially after they just flopped a few months ago is crazy.

As far as the recruiting booth, we are not allowed on school property at this particular elementary. We have scouts and scouters in uniform stand on the sidewalk and hand out fliers as people come in. It has all our recruiting information as well as telephone numbers if they have questions.

Our UC was present, he helped some but like I said we pretty much have everything under control. The only reason the DE was there was because she asked to be. She is relatively new and wanted to help (she is also a scout parent in our Pack). My main problem is that she didn't really want to help, she wanted to do something that she never talked with anyone about and then we she didn't get to do it she left. Plus, she made rude comments about how we recruit which given the results is quite effective.

Short,

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against starting a new pack and a know that we really don't have any control over it. What irks me is tha she wanted us to do the work so she can get the credit. It is wrong for us to recruit new scouts do all the leg work and then he whisper in their ear that she wants to start a new pack closer to home for them. If that was the intention she should have stated that upfront and we wouldn't have recruited from that school.

John,

Our COR is a paper figure only, we only see maybe once or twice a year. The only time he steps in is when there is a problem with the scouts and the facility.

It is not our packs job to help another pack start up. I agree that if there are enough parents and boys to start a new pack that is closer for them then to do it. But for us to use our resources to help them do this, especially after they just flopped a few months ago is crazy.

As far as the recruiting booth, we are not allowed on school property at this particular elementary. We have scouts and scouters in uniform stand on the sidewalk and hand out fliers as people come in. It has all our recruiting information as well as telephone numbers if they have questions.

Our UC was present, he helped some but like I said we pretty much have everything under control. The only reason the DE was there was because she asked to be. She is relatively new and wanted to help (she is also a scout parent in our Pack). My main problem is that she didn't really want to help, she wanted to do something that she never talked with anyone about and then we she didn't get to do it she left. Plus, she made rude comments about how we recruit which given the results is quite effective.

We just recently had our Fall recruiting at our local elementary school. We are in a relatively small but growing town and have 2 elementaries (one that won't even let us in the doors, only pass out fliers to drivers during meet the teacher) and another elementary that we inherited in a town about 10-15 away because their pack folded last year.

We are good sized pack (the biggest in our district and probably close to the biggest in our council) and had about 50-60 parent/child combos show up. I did the timeline of a boy and gave the speech that with a pack this size we need leaders not just boys. We ended up with 45 signing up that night and a few more at our den meeting the next week. We recruited 2 leaders and are in the works of a few more. In total our pack is now around 110-120 boys, but the year is young and we will probably thin out a little.

My problem is with the DE, during this whole ordeal she seemed supportive on the outside but her actions show otherwise. She wanted to take the kids from the school in the next town who signed up and form a new pack even though they just folded last year. That area is very poor and even though they might have the boys they won't have the money to do what we do. I know that she needs to open a certain number of new units but IMHO that is just wrong to take them after they have joined our unit. It was kind of like, you do the work and I will take the credit which needless to say isn't building a good relationship with our pack.

Secondly, she made comments to other leaders about how she felt my timeline of a boy was inappropriate and not an effective way to recruit leaders. Shortly after she left, not even helping us with sign ups. Our pack is pretty much self-sufficient. We can handle sign ups just fine but we don't understand why she would come saying she was there to help and then just leave.

She said she had never seen anything like it before, referring to the numbers and how we did things. Perhaps it caught her off guard and she wasn't prepared and didn't know how to help or felt she wasn't needed. The other issue is her son is in our pack so she attends den meetings almost every week (sometimes she sends her husband).

How should this be handled?

Do we ignore it, mention it to her, let her boss know, we don't want to cause problems but as the DE she shouldn't be treating our pack so disrespectfully.

ScoutNut,

IMHO counting Webelos only camping toward summertime pack is cheating the system. Just because the pack promotes it, the entire pack is not able to attend. Since only Webelos can go it is a den or patrol activity despite who promotes it.

Our pack promotes our Webelos Resisent camp but too but we would never try to count it as a pack activity.

If the Bears are going to a climbing center to climb and it is mentioned a pack meeting to increase attendance is that a pack activity. No! It is den activity. If you are counting things the way you are then I am sure everyone in your pack has the summertime pack award and it really means nothing but in our pack few have it and kids work hard to stay active so they can get it.

A Pack event does not have be something that everyone attends, nor does it have be something that at least so many people from each rank attend, it should be something that at least all ranks have the oppurtunity to attend though.

This was my original post. As I stated, I don't think everyone in the pack has to attend an event for it to count, nor should at least so many people from each rank have to attend for it to count. What really matters is that the event was open to everyone.

Such as in our case, Webelos could attend the Resident Camp and no one else could. That is not right to count that because the Pack could not attend only certain boys.

I think many of you misunderstand what I was saying as far as counting Resident Camp as a summer Pack activity (except for SctDad). It is really not right to count something as a Pack event if not all the Pack is eligiable to attend. In our case resident camp is for Webelos only so to count that as Pack event even though multiple boys from our Pack went isn't right because Tigers, Wolves, and Bears could not attend.

A Pack event does not have be something that everyone attends, nor does it have be something that at least so many people from each rank attend, it should be something that at least all ranks have the oppurtunity to attend though. Counting Cub Day Camp, no problem there, all ranks can go so it becomes a Pack activity.

Although we haven't finished completely we have used

Leather bracklets

Baskets (acutally ended up being the hardest for the boys)

Bamboo Windchimes

Hot dog/marshmellow roasters (bent coat hangers with handle)

for the non-wood projects.

We also used pinewood derby cars for one of the wood projects and we haven't done the last wood project but the wood ones are usually easier.

Our Council told me the main reason why Webelos weren't allowed at Camporee was that the Boy Scouts where doing shootgun, rifle, and axe throwing which Cub Scouts are not allowed to do. Which made me feel a lot better about being told we couldn't go.

As far as attending a Boy Scout campout, there have been no problems here. Our Boy Scouts only take the 2nd year Webelos so they don't have as many young boys to worry about and it helps give them more one on one time.

Pack212Scouter,

I believe you have misread the requirements for AOL. It states that a boy must attend at least one Boy Scout-oriented activity. We have used our Webelosree and our Webelos Woods (Webelos resident camp) for those requirements. Both orient the boys into patrols and self-sufficiency including cooking their own meals. Our CM has made this mistake too and in fact scared half my parents because of it, which took a meeting of parents to clear up the actual requirement.

SctDad,

To be fair you shouldn't count Resident Camp as a Pack activity since not all can attend. Since your Tigers are not allowed to participate that really doesn't make it a Pack activity, where I am at it is considered a Council event not a Pack activity. They do this mainly because we don't camp as a Pack nor do we really spend anytime as a Pack.

Struax,

Once your boys cross over from Wolves to Bears then any activity they do (even during the summer) counts toward their Bear achievements.

Our district is the largest in our council. I am not sure exactly how many packs we have but at least 20. Several packs come to RT and are very involved with the training, no problem with support there. Others come when there is a big training they need, and others I have never heard of because they don't attend anything. I am hoping to either go to a Pack meeting for these hard to reach Packs or at least sit down with the CM and talk to them about what training really is and what we offer to help them and their leaders.

Obviously I will push our 2 trainings a year, and the training at U of S, which I will be a part in. I am hoping to attend our Council Scout Show, at least pop in for the UC training and get to as many other Council/district events as I can. I want people to know who I am and for me to know who they are. I don't want to come across as some district guy you can't talk to, I would rather have people running up to ask me questions I know that I am easy to talk to.

Being a somewhat new leader with no real BS history to fall back on, I found that attending training and getting into a network of others leaders was really beneficial. Having a class that helps promote inter-Troop/Pack relations would be great. Especially at the Webelos level with so many activity badges, it gives a chance where one group has expertise and another doesn't.

Another good thing, maybe to add to Local "go see its", is community resources.

Fundraising seems to need some help for a lot of the Pack's around here.

Online Advancement

Recharter (online and paper)

LisaBob,

Not sure what the official rules about OWL are (you are probably right) but I was told during my Webelos specific training and again at OWL that it was required in order to take Webelos camping as a den. I think it makes mention of it in the WDL book too, but again I could be wrong.

I have encouraged the leaders in my pack to take BALOO at the Tiger or Wolf level, then OWL at Bear level, then IOLS at Webelos level so they get the most benefit. Few follow this because they think it is more training then they need and that the they will learn the same stuff 3 times.

When I joined the council training team I was told that I needed to organize and promote 2 trainings a year. I will be helping with BALOO, OWL, and U of S but since they are council events I don't have much of hand in what they do.

I think the biggest problem with training is getting rid of the bad reputation it holds with so many and educating the rest.

Eagle92,

I don't know if you read my mind or if you just fell into the same trap I did. I just took the position of our CS Training Chair (District not Council) and have been wondering what I can do to improve things.

One thing I think would be helpful to getting fully trained leaders is the opportunity for them to do Intro, How We Have Fun, Specific, YPT, and Weather all in one sitting. We run into a lot of cards that we have to hold because they don't have all of their training done or they didn't bring in their paperwork. If they have a chance to sit down and do it all then most of them will walk away "Trained". Of course this would be optional if people do it at home and bring in the paperwork.

Also, in our District I have run into a lot of people who either don't know what it takes to be trained, they don't know what the training really entails, or both. There is so much uneducation when it comes to training, with a lot coming from leaders who took the training years ago and tell the newbies they don't need it.

We have a time to talk about training at each of roundtables which I will definatley use, but I also plan to reach out to CM's and UC's that don't attend.

We already do trainings twice a year and at University all with pretty poor attendance. I really think the best thing to do is reach out to units and individuals and let them know what is available and get them excited about being properly trained. Also, letting them know that manatory training is coming soon (or so I hear).

The pushing of BALOO and OWL is thing we don't do but I think would be great. Far to many Packs operate on the notion that having one BALOO trained person is good enough, it lets them go camping. Many don't know that with OWL they can take their Webelos camping, which is great for to get the boys ready for Boy Scouts.

If we as trainers can get to new leaders and let them know about the benefits and help of being trained before others tell them how useless it is we may have more sucess.

We do 2 outings per month to give the boys the option of what they want to do and to provide alternatives because of family vacation schedules. We usually do a hike each month, we do a baseball game in July, we are planning a swimming party as well. We have done small service projects in the past but the turnout was so small it made a lot of work for a few people and the leaders ended up doing more than the boys.

Pretty much anything you can think of as long as the entire pack is invited. You could do a campout, fishing, or even a belt loop day where you get together at the local park and have stations set up to work on different belt loops. The possibilities are almost endless, you just can't do anything that breaks the G2SS or that excludes a specific group (like having an activity badge day where Tigers, Wolfs, and Bears wouldn't be able to attend).

Pack212Scouter,

I don't know if it differs from council to council, but in our council Day Camp and Resident Camp can't be counted toward the Summertime Pack Award since they are Council and/or District events not Pack events.

I would be careful about counting these events before talking to council because it could nulify the award(s). We had to turn a boy down for the award because of this very reason last year. He attended Resident Camp thinking it would count for July but we couldn't count it so he did not get the award.

As AlFansome pointed out, there are some guidelines for what "Active" is in the Webelos handbook but no clear cut rules. This is most likely because circumstances vary from case to case.

My council in it's monthly newsletter and at roundtables said that you could not use attendance to define "Active". Although I don't agree with it, it is their policy.

Just look at each boy, talk to them and their parents if need be. When we did Webelos Rank, I sat down with a boy and his father and asked them why they missed so much and we determined that we would earn his rank but he had to improve his attendance if he wanted to earn his AOL and so far he has done great.

If your pack has activities during the summer and the boys attend then they are being active. If they are attending CSDC or resident camp then they are being active. If the boys have been working on badges over the summer then they are being active. Take all that into consideration.

I does take at least some participation to earn the AOL but coming to den meetings should be important to the boys. They can't just do everything at home, come to B&G and get their AOL. If you examine each situation, talk to the problem cases, and weigh all the circumstances you will have no problem with coming up with a plan for the boys to earn their AOL, even if each plan is different.

First of all welcome to the forum and congratulations to you and your son for his accomplishments. I have 1 boy in my den with Asperger and another with full blown Autism and I have seen first hand the challenges you 2 have faced.

I know you said you are a small pack, do you have a CC or a COR? What about a UC? These would be the people you need to contact and let them know of the leadership or lack there of issues. They should work to replace you with an interested adult and the UC, CC, DC should help them get trained and ready to run a successful and growing pack. You have to do what is best for your son, it is not selfish to assist him in his excelling in scouts.

I do think it would be ideal to have some one with the experience in running a pack to come along side the CM and assist him, it would make his transition easy. However, with the right support and training they should do fine.

Another suggestion is for you or the current CM to work with him until Christmas break and then he is on his own. That would give him a little more than 3 solid months of help and experience before the before you hand over the wheel. You may even be able to work something out with the current CM so he could work with the CM for a while and then you so that no one is being over extended. No matter what happens with quality, trained leaders who are dedicated to the pack and a good CO the pack will survive.

Have you talked to the troop about your son? In our troop a parent cannot be an ASM over his sons patrol. We have 2 boys in the troop who have either Autism or Aspergers and there parents are on the committee but no direct involvement with the boys and they do great. I know the situations vary with all boys but most boys excel without dad or mom right behind them. The troop may currently have or in the past have dealt with autism. Just something to consider.

AKdenldr,

You wanted advice and posted your question(s) on an online forum to do that. Don't get upset when you receive an answer you don't like. If all you wanted was support for what you where going to do anyway then you have re-worded your post for such feedback.

I understood your post and even re-read it for the benefit of perhaps being wrong but I still don't agree with you. If you are doing to seperate achievements, ranks, belt loops, electives, or awards of any kind then the boy should do the requirement each time. It is double dipping when allow a boy to do one task and receive credit in more than one area, I am pretty sure that would be the definition of double dipping.

AlFansome,

Perhaps to you it is okay, but to me and my program even 1/10 of an arrow point needs to be earned. Would you give a boy an arrow point if he only did 9 out of ten electives? Would you be upset if your child looked on another kids paper for a answer on a 10 question test? Come on it is only 1/10 of a point.

We all want the boys do their best, however the difference is that you believe that going easy on a child is in their best interest and I believe pushing a boy and making him do all the requirements to receive credit is in their best interest.

Scouter760,

There are also many real-world situations in which you have to do something every time to get credit. If you work at Sears selling lawn mowers can you sell one and get credit for 10? No, you actually have to do the work each time. Besides I would hardly compare writing a book to doing a stream cleanup. Let the boys do something because it is good not because they will receive so many prizes or awards.

That is why so many boys do something expecting to get something out of it. What do you mean I don't get a badge for walking that old lady across the street?

I have to agree with Basememntdweller here:

Not only is it lazy do one thing and have it count for 2, 3 or even more requirements it teaches the boy do the minimum. Allow I will agree that it does not directly state anywhere that you can't "double dip", do you really want to run a program that teaches a boy to bend, stretch and push the rules to meet his agenda?

Most of the requirements don't repeat themselves and there is a reason for that. New skills are learned and applied in a variey of ways. When you to get to other awards and electives counting something he has already done does not teach him anything. It should be an opportunity for him to apply skills that he may have already learned or learn some new skills, but instead too many parents and leaders make a chance for the boy to get a freebie.

Don't go down that path, besides once you get to Webelos it is not allowed and the rules spell it out. So why get the boy used to doing one thing only to have it change later.

Beavah, not that you need it but you have my support on this. Even in everyday life we see interpretation and changes in laws, rules, and ordanances depending on the circumstances. Not every situation can be approached with a book, if so the BS handbook would come mail order like the encyclopedia britanica.

I shall remind or enlighten some of you of the problems that McDonalds had not too far back. A company filled with books and rules that one must follow to the letter without question or modification. Some one (posing as a law enforcement officer) called managers and told them to that certain employees had drugs on them and strip search them. These managers not having a section in their books to tell them what to do obliged. Common sense should at least to an extent override the rules. Had these managers not been trained to be mere drones they would have known this was not only wrong but stupid. If we teach our youth that you have to follow the book to the letter and don't teach them to challenge themselves, think on their own, or use common sense will be no better off then corporate drones spouting off rules and ordanances.

The real problem for most doesn't seem to be the modification of requirements rather that we don't see what benefits these modifications have to the youth we serve. If you are going to modify the existing requirements than you should be able to explain your reasoning to some one else, show them why you think this will help the boy, not just because I the SM and I said so.

Power corrupts absolute, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think many of us on the side of Beavah forget that not everyone has or uses common sense. Some are power driven, some are vindictive, some are just plain stupid and that can create problems of arbitrary changes that have no benefit except for the gain of those in charge.