NE-IV-88-Beaver

sheldonsmom,

The current curriculum is designed for Boy Scouts and Venturing both. One of the main problems is making the lectures and examples relevant to both groups.

The new procedure is that even if you do an "in-person" YPT course, the trainees must go on-line and take the test to complete the training.

As a facilitator myself, I think the "in-person" is much better because the presentation information can be tailored to your state, county, etc. laws as well as the BSA requirements and provide a question and answer period. But I have to ask myself, who is going to sit through an hour and a half presentation when they still have to go on-line to finish the course and be certified. Not many! Just do the 25 - 30 minutes on-line and be done with it! I think that we may have become obsolete.

It's a National thing!!

"What if you went to a troop and they didn't allow a 20 year old, highly qualified in child psychology, camping skills, physical fitness, knot tying, citizenship, etc. skills be a Scoutmaster? Would you walk?"

Wouldn't they be following BSA rules that a Scoutmaster needs to be 21 years of age/ How could the CO be faulted for that?

Controversies such as this can make a Scout drop out as well! But perhaps nwasness handled it better the whole situation better than some of the posters here seem to be able to.

Yeese! Such drama! It's simple - the CO has a policy, which they are allowed to under BSA rules, which restricts the inclusion of women in Scouting activities; accept it or find a new troop. This is not the only such troop and doesn't deserve the labels that are being applied to it. Why must some posters always stoop to that level?

Great post on how boy-lead can work if given the chance!

Could you post periodic updates on how your troop is doing? I think that it might be an interesting lesson for all of us to see how well a boy-lead group functions even though this group was established with a short term focus. They don't have a lot of time to get themselves up to speed before they're going live, putting their plan into action.

Stosh, you should be commended for the way that you brought this about. Three big howls!!

OGE,

Wear 'em with pride and don't worry about it!

I wear my doodads and on occasion, it can start some interesting conversations. I was honored to receive the Silver Beaver over twelve years ago. Certainly didn't campaign for it; in my district and council, that's a pretty sure way not to get recognized. I didn't say, "Well, I'm done, there's nothing else to get!" Being in it for the boys, it hasn't slowed down my involvement either. I can only think of a few individuals over the last thirty years that I thought were in it for what they could get out of it and not for the boys. They soon disappeared after they got what they wanted.

The simple answer for all is - Wear 'em if you want, don't wear 'em if you don't!!

But don't try to figure out the motive behind what someone else does! Don't judge them, get to know them first and see whether they're just old and still act like boys or "good old boys"! You might be surprised at how many are just old and act like boys because that's who they're there for!!

People were being turned down for using CPAP machines. You had the opportunity to resubmit your medicals stating that your machines were battery-operated. This seems a little strange to me since battery-operated means that they will need to be recharged on a regular basis which, in effect, is the same as directly operating on electric.

In my small circle, I know of three people that this happened to.

The simplest thing to do is to toss the the problem in your council's lap. Do they have a problem with the publicity? Has there been any guidance from them?

If you feel that he has been deceitful and had giving BSA a problem as a goal all along, don't recognize him as an Eagle Scout within your troop. If you maintain an eagle Honor Roll plaque, don't include him. There is little else that you can do!

Scoutnet should not let the younger son be registered or record any advancement if his age is accurately input.

What others rules will this Den Leader decide don't apply to his family as he goes along? How will he enforce rules for other members of his den when they confront him with, "Well, your sons don't have to follow the rules!"

Seems like a bad situation from the start and one that will only continue to get worse, if not nipped in the bud!

Make them the Roadkill Squirrels and forget about it!!

A flattened squirrel on the patch solves all of your problems................(This message has been edited by NE-IV-88-Beaver)

"All it means is that the boy has fulfilled a set of requirements by which he is measured both objectively and subjectively and had attained a rank in the scouting program."

Why has Eagle lost some of it's prestige?

It has to be awarded to anyone who completes a check list of "do" items - the "objectively" side. The "be" side is where the "subjectively" used to be and where the biggest changes have been made in today's Scouting program. National advancement policy changes are taking away the ability to "measure subjectively". Look at the current definition of active - just being registered totally takes out the issue of being subjective in a Scout contributing to the overall program. Demonstrating Scout Spirit in their daily life was totally subjective on the part of the unit leader - no more, just matters what letters of recommendation say! What Scout would be dumb enough to ask someone for a letter of recommendation that wouldn't supply a favorable one?

With changes like these, more will get the award, but it will have lost it's value. If this trend continues, the award will have lost a certain amount of prestige and will not be recognized as a great achievement! Is this in the best interest of Scouting, I don't think so! Respect for those who have earned Eagle is on the decline. Is that something that we really want to see?

OGE,

Is there a subliminal message in your post? Your message isn't quite as clear as the other posts!

I'm using a Sullivan Series V CPAP machine having logged over 16,000 hours on it. While camping, I am currently plugging my machine into a Diehard Portable Power 1150A system but that only gets me two nights at best.

This became a real issue with Jamboree staff registration this year. Anyone who had a CPAP listed on their medical got rejected unless they resubmitted their form with a notation that their CPAP was battery-powered. I'm supposed to be there from July 21st to August 5th, a total of fifteen nights. I couldn't find any system that could give me any where near that length of battery life. So everyone that I know with a CPAP said that they had a battery-powered machine knowing full well that they were going to be continuously recharging their batteries. I don't know what Jamboree gained by this except for making staff aware that they couldn't depend on and wouldn't be responsible for providing a continuous power source for those needing CPAP machines. Yet everyone can plan on bringing and operating a small, personal fan, go figure!!

Basementdweller,

I'm curious about your power system for your CPAP machine. This became a real issue with Jamboree staff registration this year. While camping, I am currently plugging my machine into a Diehard Portable Power 1150A but that only gets me two nights.

Double post(This message has been edited by NE-IV-88-Beaver)

"The Advancement method is one of the carrots the BSA uses to get boys involved and retain them. I know this is a purely hypothetical discussion, but I think that it would be a mistake to deprecate Eagle as it would result in negative publicity and have a long-term impact on both recruiting both youth and adults."

That being the case, why does BSA (meaning National) find some logic,often misguided, to award the Eagle rank to all who appeal being turned down for same by their troop, district and council. This, in my mind, belittles (deprecates) the award and does result in negative publicity throughout the affected council, district and troop, thus having a long-term impact on recruiting or retaining adult leaders. Those who know a particular youth best are totally discounted in this process and leaders are left to ponder, "Why bother?"

Does anyone know of a Scout appealing to National who was actually turned for the Eagle award? I would find this interesting because I have never personally heard of one. I have heard of several that I was amazed that National awarded thus making it easier for me to understand how the award is possibly losing some significance in the business world.

markrvp,

Does this Scout happen to be your son?

Good question! What is your position in this? You are getting suggestions based on you being the Wolf den leader but your user name translates out to you possibly being the Cub Pack Committee Chairperson. That difference in position lays out different responsibilities. If you are the Committee Chair, you definitely need to be looking towards removing this father/den leader at the end of this program year. Aside from the problems being generated by what he has been doing with his younger son, how can he be an effective leader when he doesn't attend leader meetings, barely attends pack nights, and is considered, well, in your words, very bullyish?

Your pack doesn't need this type of den leader. Bully or not, do not let him become the Webelos Leader. If you allow this to continue, the discontent in your unit will magnify and your program growth will be stifled. I agree that you probably can not avoid giving the boy his Wolf advancement at this time but it does have it's consequences. Giving out unearned advancement, particularly when a large group feels that it is unearned, cheapens the whole process. As others have stated, the new program changes should help that concern in the future. If you are the committee chair, don't hesitate to discuss this in a committee meeting. That discussion will show others that you are aware of the problem and are taking steps, not asking this leader to become the Webelos Leader, to prevent the continuation of the problem. You may lose the father and the two sons but you can't afford the discontent that they are causing.

Good luck!

OGE,

Please take note that the Red Beret has again been besmirched!

Even dorkier than the collarless shirt???

Some people just don't understand fashionable! I'm with you, OGE.

Eagle92,

In your scenario, I don't have a problem at all with that being considered for the award. It sounds like all of the personnel and procedures were in place to qualify.

I think that it is incumbent on the unit to get a ruling from their district or council as to whether or not an event would meet the requirements for the Outdoor Activity Award,rather than have each pack decide on their own or to ask for a ruling from the posters on Scouting.com Forums.

Referring back to one of your earlier posts, there is nothing wrong with the OP's Tigers in question here waiting until they meet the requirements as Wolves.

Basementdweller, I'm with you all the way. Why not short cut all of the requirements and go ahead and give the Tigers their Arrow of Light? We know that they'll eventually complete all of the requirements, possibly, and that would give them more time to enjoy the "bling".

This topic was broached to me by my daughter as some in their den were complaining that only two boys (who actually attended camp) had received the award. After researching the topic, I sent her the following reply:

Daughter -

In my opinion, awarding the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award for attending the XXXXX XXX Klondike Derby is not justified. It would represent a watering down of the intended purpose of the award. Having attended this event for many years as a Boy Scout leader, I fail to see how it could meet the requirements as a day camp. Anyone who feels that it does is just reaching for an excuse to get around the requirements and hand out an award just for the sake of doing so.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CSOutdoorActivityAward.aspx

Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award

Tiger Cubs, Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts have the opportunity to earn the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award. Boys may earn the award in each of the program years as long as the requirements are completed each year. The first time the award is earned, the boy will receive the pocket flap award, which is to be worn on the right pocket flap of the uniform shirt. Each successive time the award is earned, a wolf track pin may be added to the flap. Leaders should encourage boys t o build on skills and experiences from previous years when working on the award for a successive year.

Requirements

All Ranks

Attend Cub Scout day camp or Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CubScoutingHighlights/05.aspx

Outdoor Program Highlights

Camping Opportunities for...

Tiger Cubs Cub Scouts Webelos Scouts

Parents Families

Cub Scoutings' camping and outdoor activities fulfill Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts dreams of fun, excitement, and adventure. They provide a natural setting for quality time with family and friends. Modern council camps, with qualified leadership, provide an ideal setting for these activities.

Check with your local council service center for information on the type of Cub Scouting outdoor opportunities offered in your area.

Cub Scout Day Camp

"The camp that comes to the boy," day camp is an accredited, organized, one- to five-day program for Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts under trained leadership at an approved site, and is usually held during daylight or early evening hours, but not overnight. Den members are supervised by den and pack leaders.

Resident Camping

Resident camping is an organized, accredited overnight camping program covering at least two nights and conducted under trained leadership in an established Scout camp operated by the council. Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, and parents participate with den and pack leaders in a theme-related outdoor program.

Resident Camping Normally Includes These Outdoor Program Areas

* Showmanship

* Craftsmanship

* Fitness

* Nature

* Sportsmanship

* Waterfront

* Campcraft

If you will notice, in both the day camp and resident camping definitions, it calls for an accredited, organized program. The accreditation for both of these activities means that the leaders have attended National Camp School and have been certified to run this type of activity and that the venues have been inspected and meet National standards. This by itself tends to elevate the type of activity that this award was intended for.

If these guidelines are not going to be followed, then it could be argued that any district sponsored event could qualify and be counted as "day camp". I don't really believe that this was the intent by the originator of the award.

We both know that many of the responders on the Scouter.com Forums tend to be overly liberal in their interpretation of the rules so I would tend to take their including a Klondike Derby as a "day camp" with a grain of salt.

If there is a great deal of push from the parents seeking this award for their sons, I would not have it decided on a pack basis. Before deciding in that case, I would check with either the district advancement or camping chair for an interpretation as to it qualifying or not. If you don't, you'll be establishing a precedent for the future awarding of the Outdoor Activity Award for any type of like activities.

Of course, the above just represents my opinion but it is based on over thirty years in the program, both as a unit leader and a district leader.

Dad

Well they did increase the rechartering fee by 50% this year!

Scoutfish,

"At that point, all the adult leaders and scouts are on their own. The CO dumped them and gave up ownership of the unit.Once you abandon something..it's no longer yours nor does it have any obligation to you!

At the very least...when the CO told the scouts that they were no longer useful to the CO.... the scouts do not have to take the CO's feelings, wants or cares into consideration."

That would be all well and good,....... except the CO owns the unit. They own the unit and all it's assets - equipment and finances. Unit leaders adopting your attitude could quickly face the CO dissolving the unit and confiscating the treasury and all equipment. According to the charter agreement, that's the way it works!

The proper way to handle this situation is to work closely with the CO, asking their help in finding a new sponsor. And for the good of the Scouts, to then allow a smooth transfer to a new CO, keeping their unit number and to keep their treasury and equipment intact.

Keep in mind the old saying, "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar!'

Scouterclaude,

What they apparently are doing is let the local councils decide what constitutes "home base". And if you think getting an answer out of your council is difficult, you don't even want to tackle the nightmare that it is trying to get one out of National. Not making a decision is one of the biggest decisions that they seem to be able to make.

What does your District Executive say is the policy on local tour permits in your council? That's the guidance I would follow until his successor tells you something different!