MVScouter

Our past District Commissioner created a segment to go underneath the round district patch. On says--commissioner team--obviously for all the commissioner staff, and another that says--district committee--for all the committee members. I'm not sure why he did it? The commissioner segment is red and the committee segment is blue, to match the position patches.

Well, I suppose change is inevitable in all things, even changing the BSA uniform. I have 2 tan shirts and 1 Venturing shirt. I don't see myself changing if it does happen anytime soon, and I beleive I will be in the majority. It's hard enough to get parents to buy their scout sons any kind of BSA clothing, much less new shirts. Forget about the pants, mostly adults will buy those. I can just imagine going to a District Roundtable six months after this change, if it happens, and seeing a 3/4 of adults scouters still wearing what we have now, and the other 1/4 (I'm being generous) wearing the new shirt, looking out of place, some patches sown on, wherever, because they didn't want to leave any behind.

Acco, you may be right about the National Jamboree Chief Executive patch. I only said I thought it was extremely rare because I had heard or read somewhere that only 200 are made each Jamboree. If that's true, and last Jamboree had 40,000+ participants, I would consider that being very rare, but I could be mistaken. John-in-KC--WOW! You really have a big district. Your district Key 3 must be the Key 6, or the Key 9! Your district must take great pride in showing its identity in you council with you district patch. I have not seen many youth wear it in our's, mostly adults, although any unit could buy them for their youth members at any time. Again, no one would discourages this. I don't see the harm in any district showing its identity on the uniform in some manner, whether it's on the right sleeve or right pocket. Yeh, you old time scouter's remember the red strips that was before the CSP? I still have my old Explorer uniform and mine said, "St. Paul" with "Minn" as a second strip underneath. The name of the district could be shown as a strip underneath the CSP.

Okay. I know right away that wearing a patch that represents the district a scouter is in, is not authorized by national policy and the insignia guide. Districts are not considered a recognized body unto themselves. Yes, it states that in the insignia guide. With that in mind, about 4 years ago, our then District Commissioner, with the blessing of the Council Executive, issued a District patch. It was to be worn on the right sleeve. Other districts in our council created their own district patch as well. The Council adjacent to us across the river made a few negative comments about it, but we ignored them. I'm sure every scouter is proud of their district in some manner, and we are no different. Currently, I would say there are at least 50+ scouts that I see at the Roundtables and other events that still wear our district patch, myself included. We are proud of our district and we choose to display that pride. At our Roundtables, we ask all newcomers to come to the front of the room to introduce themselves. As a token of welcome, our Cub Scout and Boy Scout Commissioners give them our district patch. Now, it's placement on the uniform is certainly open for debate. We were told on the onset that is could be placed on the right sleeve. No one discourages this. Some wear it (probably more correctly) as a temporary patch on the right pocket. Personally, I won't do this because I was lucky enough to get an extremely rare 2005 Chief Scout Executive National Jamboree patch when I was on staff there. It is on my right pocket. So technically, adhereing to the strictest rules and policies, I am out of uniform. But if BSA National places on the front cover of the latest scout magazine a scouter who is grossly out of uniform, what's the diff. So, I'm sure this will generate many opinions, pro and con. Does anyone else wear a District Patch and if so, why?

There is no District Training Award. It's the training award for District Roundtable Commissioners. I would think if a Boy Scout is in a Venturing Patrol, he could wear a Venturing device for a youth religious award.

2 years ago, our council awarded 27 scouters with the Silver Beaver. At the Council Recognition Dinner, it took nearly 90 minutes to announce them all (we are the 5th largest council). Last year, the count was over 20. Each year is different. 3 years ago, our district had no one awareded. The year after that, we had 7. Baden, as I understand it, the way your council nominating committee does their process, ours is the same way. It does seem the most fair. 10 years does seem to be the minimun number of years of service. I don't know of anyone in our district that was awarded with less years of service. If you want to talk about service on a total level, check out some of the National OA committee members. Some have awarded, what is called, the "homerun" (Silver Beaver, Antelope, and Buffalo).

My story is similar to many others. I was a Cub Scout along with my brother starting in the late 50's. Mom was the Den Mother. I still have her den mother patch. Got AOL (Webelos Award back then) and became a Boy Scout. Dad was the ASM and then the SM. When my brother and I slacked off, he would push us hard to get the Eagle Award, which my brother and I did. I went into Exploring for 2 years, got one palm and then the post fell apart. I rejoined into Cub Scouts as a Webelos Den Leader nearly 8 years ago with my son. I still haven't forgiven myself for not joining up when he became a Tiger. Maybe things have just worked out as they were meant to. I've had a blast ever since. Our troop is not as active as many others, but we have gone on some great trips. Scouting is a great way to bond with your son, not only with the adventures you can have, but more importantly, with what Scouting teaches through the Scout Oath and Law. My highlight so far has been the privilage of being on staff at the 2005 National Jamboree. My son with with the Council contingent. I hope to go to Sea Base one day. I enjoy Scouting perhaps too much, to the ire of my wife. At the moment, I am a Unit Commissioner, District Venture Chair and Venture Roundtable Commissioner, Venture Crew CC, District Vice-Chair of Training, and Troop ASM. I love the OA (Vigil Honor) and I go to all the OA events (we are the 4th largest Lodge). I have been also privilaged in meeting and making friends with so many wonderful men and women. Sometimes I feel that in no other organization or circumstance could I have had the opportunity to make acquaintances and friendships with so many marvelous and caring people that genuinely want to make the Scouting program the best it can be for the scouting youth. I do have one disappointment. Every father desires to see his son follow in his footsteps in some aspect of life. I was hoping my son had the willingness and fortitude to become an Eagle scout, but it is not to be. However, knowing what is coming in our immediate future for our country and planet, I am at peace with his decision.

I wear all of the knots I've earned--10. ( Eagle, youth religious, Arrow of Light, BS training, Commissioner Key, James E West, Community Service Award through the American Legion, the Boyce New Unit Organizer Award, Cubscouter, and Webelos Den Leader.I'll be awarded the Commissioners Award of Excellence next month. I should have gotten it in December, but sometimes the wheels in scouting turn slow. No big deal. I've noticed in our district too, most every adult scouter wears the knots they've earned. Our training chair is always encouraging adult scouters to earn them. I've had several scouters come up to me to ask me about the Comm. Serv. Award. I say to them, hey there's at least 10 different community organizations you can earn this through. I rejoined scouting in March of 2000. Yes, I agree that the benchmark for receiving the DAM is around 5 years. That seems to be the norm in my district...5+ years. If I am fortunate enough to be nominated for the DAM and be awarded, that will be my most cherished. As for the moment....hummmm, I'm very proud of my Eagle award even though it was earned 41 years ago. When I receive the Distinquished Commissioner, that I will honor that award above the others. Commissioner service is a position I have always taken seriously and I have strived to help my units to the best of my abilities. It takes 5 years of service to receive this award. As I stated in a different post, earning knot awards can be a very significant benefit to the Scouting program. Taking myself as an example, I have actively sought to earn the awards I have. You could say, I have been motivated. The by-product of my efforts toward my goals has hopefully generated a positive influence on the scouting program and every scouter I have come in contact with. The number of ways are too many to list. What if I didn't care about earning scouting awards, would that have made me a less effective scouting volunteer? Honestly, in my case, I'd have to say yes. I am not ashamed to admit this. So, I conscientiously put forth a greater effort toward helping the youth and the unit knowing that if I achieved certain requirements, I would be rewarded. I can only hope that my motivation toward my goals created an even greater benefit to the scouting youth I helped along the way.

I like Calico Penn's post. It echos my views also. Yes, it is human nature to seek and receive recognition for our efforts. Who wants to supress this aspect of being human, not me. I wear all the knots I've earned. Many times, both adults and youth have come up to me and asked me about what I've earned. Two knots in particlar, the Community Service Award (through the American Legion) and the Boyce New Unit Organizer Award, have caught the attention of many. It gives me the opportunity to explain about them and what they can do to earn it. I look at it this way. If a youth or adult purposely attempts to actively achieve a certain award, Eagle scout, or a scout knot, the labor, time, and service put forth by that scouter, to whatever degree, will be off benefit to someone, or some aspect of scouting. Isn't this the purpose of all scouters: to give service in order to make scouting an enjoyable and adventurous experience for all scouting youth? I am receiving the Commissioners Award of Excellence next month and anyone who is in commissioner service knows that takes 5 years to achieve. Yes, I'm proud to get it, but I'm more proud that the units I serve have been Quality Award Units every year. That translates to healty units that impliment quality programs for their members.

I agree with everyone else with the list of formal occasions. I have 5 medals I could wear, but usually only wear my Eagle, Religious Award and a Historic Trail Medal I am proud of. Most adult scouters I see at "formal events" don't wear the medals they've earned. That is their choice. I would rather wear them at certain formal occasions rather than have them collect dust in a drawer in my bedroom dresser. My take on our Council Recognition Dinner and District Dinner is this: these dinners are very formal affairs with great planning and implimentation gone into creating these events by many dedicated scouters. Our Council Recognition Dinner, where the new Silver Beavers are awared and recognized, is held in a elegant courtyard and the dinner is superb. Every adult scouter comes looking their best, youth also. Other than an Eagle Scout Ceremony, I would rate these events as the next, best opportunity to wear any scout medals. That is my opinion.

Excellent post Eamonn You have really nailed the duties of the Unit Commissioner right on the head. Every new unit commissioner should read your insights. I have always tried to pick the brains of more experienced scouters because you never know what you can use yourself from the knowledge they impart. My view as a UC is one of a resource person and helper. Through my experience, it can be very tempting for a UC to butt-into the affairs of a unit. Many a time, I've caught myself attempting to force my views on the unit's "doing business" as--"this is the way is has to be." That is not the role of a UC--being a butt-in-ski. I express my views when called upon and leave it at that. It is their show, not mine. As to the uniform inspections, there are some units that would not be opposed and others that would not like it. What I did mine, I gave the troop a month's notice. There did not mind the inspection itself. I had the SPL choose the best four uniforms for correctness and neatness and he gave them special patches. If I do this again, I may try your suggestion. MVScouter (Wes)

Opps. I made a error. Our National Commissioner is Don Belcher. Anyone who is a commissioner can get his quarterly podcasts off of the National website. Just go to Commissioners and you will find it. His commentary's can be downloaded to your Ipod.

Eamonn, If you have the Commissioner Fieldbook, go to page 19, "Uniform Inspections." Mine is 5 years old so I don't know if this section has been changed. It states in the 1st paragraph: "You are a uniformed offical of a uniformed organization. It is important that you wear yours correctly to set an example for your units. Pack inspections are held in the fall. Troop inspections are held in spring and fall. Occasionally you will be asked to inspect the unit." You have much more experience than I do so what is your take on this? I have only done one inspection at the troop level in 5 years. I did not do the inspection, but merely guided the SPL to do it. When he missed something, I would ask him about it. I felt it was warranted because many young scouts just didn't know where certain badges should be worn. That was about 3 years ago. Personally, it would not hurt to do it again. Oak Tree: I agree with your post. I just thought of something else. My son went to the 2005 National Jamboree. I went as staff. He was given a few Jamboree patches that were required to be on his uniform. All other isignia had to be correct and in the proper place. If something was not right, the Scoutmaster made the scout correct it. No arguements! There is a double standard in place in very special situations. Our national commissioner, Don Blecher spoke at a gathering of commissioners in Minneapolis 2 summers ago. He was wearing a knot that was red with a silver background. I did not have the opportunity to ask him what is was so I sent an e-mail to George Crowl, the Boy Scout Awards expert to see if he knew. He didn't have a clue and he's seen hundreds. Well, the lastest picture of Don shows him in his uniform and that knot is now been removed. Whatever it was, it was not offical. Yes, this is volunteerism, not the military. But it calls into question the BSA policies, strictly adhered to by professionals and volunteers like Don Belcher, and other scouters who may regard these uniform policies with apathy and indifference.

I've been down this road before, so here I go again. I feel there are certain times when someone like a Unit Commissioner or a Dist. Comm. must interceed when some scouter is grossly violating BSA uniform policies. I will explain......and I am a UC--for 5 years. I see patches misplaced or ones that should not be on the "uniform" all the time. 99% of the time, I say nothing. Usually, the scouter will wear what he wants to wear and that's the end of it, no matter what anyone tells him or her to the contrary. But there are situations that must be addressed. Such as: The district advancement chair in my district is currently wearing 2 of the same knot (it's the district key). He should know better. I have said nothing, and I probably will keep it that way--maybe. I have also seen a 20+ year scouter wear 2 of the Venturing Leaders Award. No one should wear 2 of the same knot on there uniform. That's what devices are for. 2.) More of the same. This was my pitch to "Andy the Commish", the scouter columnist who chastised me from pillar to post a few years back because of this incident. Remember, I am a UC and in the Commissioners handbook, we are obligated to do uniform inspections for the units we oversee. Believe me, I have never gone out my way to be a "policeman" on the uniform, but this instance was just to much. At summer camp 2 years back, we were in the parade field waiting for the retiring of the colors. I spotted a young scout and was instantly drawn to 3 knots above the left pocket. There were all the same--the youth religious award. I wear the same one so I am familiar with it. I could not in good conscious let this slide by, so I approached the SPL and explained why only one knot should be worn and about the devices. He said he would look into it. That was the end of it. I will never know what that young scout did, it anything. Again, some scouters will ignore the "rules and policies" of BSA in regards to correct uniform, and that will never change. But there are a few circumstances where correctness must be adhered to when it is blantanly violated, whether it's by ignorance or desire.

I have 3 shirts, two tan and one for Venturing. I do wear all of my knots on all of the shirts. Again, it's personal preference. I don't know much about Sea Scouts, but imposing a limit of 6 knots on that uniform is interesting. There must some sort of rational behind it. If anyone reading this is in Venturing, I ordered several of the matching background knots from Craig Murray's Sageventure website. The quality of the knots is excellent and the background matches perfectly with the dark green shirt. I have had several positive comments about how they look. Wearing the normal tan backgrounded knots did not look great on the green Venturing uniform.

Yes, this discussion about the UP's refuses to die. So here we are at round 3--or is it 30? Am I the cause? Look back at the thread that started in Feb. Purcelce copied that reply from Andy the Commish (which I still do not agree with)in which I got a little bent out of shape over a young scouter wearing 3 purple youth religious knots. I just thought I would refresh some memories. I hope you got a good laugh Purcelce. If you were a UC, I would have liked to see what you would have done in that circumstance. I will explain further. I did briefly glance at my Unit Commissioners Field Guidebook and there was a discussion about UC's holding uniform inspections of the units they serve. When I get the time, I will quote the passages later. So, why is that there? Why is that a part of the UC's duties, albeit, a small one. The BSA seems to think is proper and warranted. So what is the beef? Everyone learns by example, young and old and if " 3 purple knots", whether he knew better or (k)not, cannot adhere to a few simple uniform policies, is that an example we as consciencious scouters should ignore? And personally, I don't care if a scouter is a UC or not. I will stand by my decision to intervene in that situation. That scout, intentional or not, was not setting a good visual example for his fellow troop members. Kraut-60. I'm in your corner all the way. Great to read your insights into this "HOT" topic. It's hard to stay out of the discussion, isn't it. There doesn't seem to be much of a grey area here. That's what makes a forum such as this quite stimulating when we have so many dedicated scouters that are passionate about being apart of the greatest volunteer organization in the world. But com'on people, let's not be overly sensitive about being "oh so careful" about not hurting someone's feelings or putting someone in an embarrassing situation about their wrong patch placement. Yes, by courteous and respectful, but get the point across. I was once told by a hardcore scouter that I was out of uniform because I wore a council pin on my collar. Was he nice about it? Hardly, but I didn't go running to my lawyer.

Since I am the guy proposing the Vigil knot idea, I will respond further. First off, my proposal was directed toward my Council Lodge. I sent out a few e-mails to various scouters I knew to get some feedback on the viability of a Vigil Knot. Some were for it, some against. As I stated before, the then Council Executive of Indianhead Council liked the idea and was willing to support it. In a future message, I will relate some of his thoughts. Remember, he is a professional scouter and he has the authority to make it a reality. Had he not supported it, I would have dropped the idea right away. Now my council and Viking Council have merged making us the 4th largest BSA council in the United States. So with that in mind, this proposal does take on more significance. However, if implimented, this would be accomplished on a council level, not national, unless our Lodge Chief goes further with it. Vigil Honors for youth only? Does that include the Founders Award also? What about the Disinquished Service Award--for youth only too? I received my Vigil as an adult, and yes, it may sound crazy, but I too value the Vigil honor more than my Eagle award. As a youth, I did not have the maturity or life experience to fully comprehend the significance of my Eagle honor. I do now, and having been the recipient of Vigil as an adult, I feel much more reverance for what the Vigil honor represents. What's wrong with taking pride with one's accomplishments. If the end result of my efforts makes a difference in the life on just one scouting youth, I can certainly take pride in that. My son, who is 15, may not fully comprehend the importance of living and practicing the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life, but someday he will. The Vigil honor is an extension of the Oath and Law, just like the Eagle award. If I want to display this pride on my uniform, would any of you condemn me for that? I will post another comment on the Death to Uniform Police topic as to Uniform Inspections. If their are any UC's out there, check your Unit Commissioners Manuel and tell us what it says on that topic.

FScouter---I side with your opinion on the appropiateness of pointing out uniform errors. My DC has asked our groups of UC's if we have conducted uniform inspections of our assigned units. (I have.) At the very least, a UC should do uniform inspections of his assigned units. There are various ways on pointing out the errors. In my case, I am very familiar with all the boys in the troop so no one got all bent out of shape when an error was seen. I actually had the SPL and ASPL do the inspections and I was more in the background. Purcelce---Thank-you for your kind words and welcome. I think Scouting is the best avenue for youth and adults to learn from each other and have great adventures, more than any other organization I know. I rejoined scouting when I was 48. My son was in a cub pack and one of the leaders quit so I took over. I'll never forgive myself for not rejoining 20 years earlier, but I'm here now. I have more comments on the Vigil knot. CalicoPenn---I would not presume to know the uniform requirements and policy's of Venturing, so if your post votes to wear jeans, so be it. However, there is a time and a place for everything. Please reread the post from kraut60. I'm in total agreement with him on his viewpoint. We all wear uniforms, whether it's Scouts, our jobs, a wedding, a school band, or on a baseball diamond. Would you wear shorts when playing high school of college baseball. Obviously not. It's not the uniform. So, you feel you must stand by your principles at a LEC meeting by wearing your Explorer Post jeans. Okay. What were all the adults wearing? Scout pants I bet. What about all the Lodge officers and Chapter Chiefs? Again, most probably wore the scout pants. Why? Think of the setting. This is an executive scout meeting. Most scouts want to project their professional appearance by honoring the program by their reverance for the complete uniform. Would it kill you to wear the grey Venturing pants or something more appropiate for this type of setting? As to the Vigil knot, it was my thought to have the Vigil knot as a replacement, if some so choose to do, for the small Vigil triangle. An honor that prestigious should be adequently displayed on the uniform. As pointed out by jr56, there are many awards that are bestowed. I can think of one more, the adult religious award. That has very little to so with scouts, but the knot can be worn on the uniform. I have the support of the Council Executive (the Supreme Chief of the Fire) and our Lodge Chief is not against it, so I can't be that far off base. I don't know your age (I'm 54), but the few people I've talked to, it's the long time scouters that are not in favor. It must be too radical. I feel the small triangle does not honor the award as it should be. I like the other ways other Lodges show what OA honr a scout has. There are many. This idea is just mine. One more thing. I was at my Councils Court of Recognition dinner last Saturday, and I saw a few very interesting things on some uniforms. One gentleman, who had received the Silver Beaver displayed the Wood Badge knot you can buy from the Streamwood site. Another long time scouter that's in my district, and is a Silver Beaver, was wearing --2-- Venturing Advisor Award knots. Should they know better? Yes. Do they care? No. Adults will wear what they want, and I'm not about to tell them otherwise, because it would go in one ear and out the other. The end.

Okay. I am the UC that wrote to "Andy the Net Commish". Yes, I was very surprised by his reply, and yes, I was also surprised reading the negative feedback. I can take critism as well as anyone, but I feel Andy was overzealous with his answer. But there are two sides to every coin, right? Let me explain myself further in regards to the incident with the "3 purple youth religious knots." Only one other time before that event did I make a remark about an incorrect patch placement. An Asst. SM in the troop I am in had a temporary patch on his left pocket. I know this guy, so he is not a stranger to me. I explained that nothing is sown on that pocket if you are an adult scouter, and I explained why. Well, can you guess what happened over time? He did nothing about it. Just like so many other adults who will wear what they want where they want it. The worse cases are when adult (and youth) wear temporary patches above the right pocket wear the Jamboree insignia should go. That's where mine is. So, I am at summer camp, waiting with my troop, amoungst all the other troops, for the retiring of the colors. This is July 2004. I see a young scout from another troop next to mine and above is left pocket are 3 youth religious award knots. Quite an achievement to have earned it 3 times over, but no one had pointed to him that you only wear 1 knot with 2 devices. Well, something inside me snapped. I could not keep silent. I didn't see the SM right off so I went to the SPL and explained what must be done. He said he would do something about it. Case closed. Opps! Case reopened and a whole can of worms has emptied out of the can. I don't think that Mr. High and Mighty "Andy" or most other Scouters on this forum would do nothing upon seeing 3 purple knots in a row on a scout uniform. What if you saw a scout with 3 Eagle knots or an adult with 3 BS training knots. Would you let it slide? Would you talk to this individual, or talk to a UC or DC? Yes, there are varying degress of indesgression, but I felt, at the time, that this infraction could not be overlooked. If that's a crime, then I am guilty. I was a UC then (still am)and I felt I was in a position of responsibilty to point out this uniform infraction. Thank-you for your support kraut60. It is important to set a good example for all Scouters on correct uniform wear. What shows on the outside is a relection of what is within. CalicoPenn--you should see some of the jeans the young scouts in my troop wear. Chains, ugly rips and worm spots. Is that what they think of themselves? If someone wants to make a statement about their attire , okay, that's fine. But I would think twice about what kind of image you wish to display to your peers. Responsible people usually project an appearance of responsibility and confidence. How do you want to be perceived? Once I started wearing Scout pants, I felt more intune with Scoutings ideals and precepts. I started to take on more jobs (too many my wife says), and be more responsible. Is that crazy? Why do women wear make-up, to please themselves or the male species? How do they feel about themselves when they've dolled themselves up? Think about it. I just shake my head when I hear the parents not wanting to buy scout pants because of the expense and the kids grow out of them so fast. I see how my son (a Star Scout) throws his money away on all those stupid video games, or how the parents will spend money on their kids, school athletics, school this or that, all kinds of things, both worthy and frivilous. But buying scout pants? OMG! That would be at the very bottom of consideration. Since I still have everyone's attention, I have one more item about patch wear. I am a Vigil member of the OA. It seemed quite strange that there is no knot for the Vigil honor. There are knots for Tiger DL and DL, which would take one year to get, but Vigil? All you Vigil's out there, think of all the volunteerism and service you preformed for the OA. How many years does that equal. No one ever seeks this honor. It is bestowed upon you. That in itself is a tremendous honor and I am very proud of it. Anyway, I wrote an e-mail to our new councils DE. (We are the 4th largest in the US now--Northern Star). He agreed with me that there should be a knot for the Vigil honor, but it isn't that easy to get approved. We have a new Lodge Chief so I am going to petition for it again. I did buy a Vigil knot from the Crew 697 website. Do I wear it? No. The Scouting "purists" would have a heart attack, but I feel I have the right to. I only bring this up to get some feedback on what others on this forum think of a "Vigil knot" coming into reality.