mtm25653

We don't have pack meetings (hold on). Last summer, when we were planning for our new pack, I came across an article called something like "Stop having pack meetings". The premise of the article was that meetings are boring, so have a celebration or something else, not a meeting.

We have our Pack Powwow the last Monday of the month. Our dens meet on different schedules based on the den leaders'convenience, mostly at the church (CO). Our first powwow was outside, with a campfire in the gravel parking lot and a birthday cake to celebrate our new pack. We try to have something different/special at every meeting and we use face-paints for new boys joining the pack and for rank advancements. Next month, we are having a Friends of Scouting presentation for the parents inside while the boys play a game outside, but the rest of the pack meeting will probably be outside. We always have skits and cheers, songs and a game most months. Don't forget den displays for things they've made/field trips.

Rechartered 30 boys, then had 12 move up from cubs, plus 2 friends join, so current is 44 - 4 patrols (2 mixed age, 1 new scout which may split into 2, 1 leadership - SPL, ASPL, Troop Guide and other older boys).

Rechartered about 35 leaders, and had several parents of new boys sign up. Probably 10 ASMs are Eagles now in college - not very active, but come to meetings when they are home on break. About 10 leaders frequently attend campouts, but not the same 10. Going to 2 camps this summer, plus a crew at Philmont - plenty of adult leadership without anyone having to miss too much work. 1 ASM works specifically with new boys. Of committee members, most are active - we have 1 person to do tour permits, another to coordinate the popcorn sale, another to make sure the health forms are current, another to track advancement. Nobody gets burned out in this troop - many hands make light work.

I've had at least one son in the troop I mentioned for the past 15 years.

Over that time, I estimate 15-20% of the scouts have earned Eagle (17 in the past 12 years). The troop has ranged in size between 20 and 40 boys - we just got 14 new boys (12 Webelos, plus 2 friends) which brings us to a new high of 44. This year's only senior earned his Eagle, last year 6 of 7 did. A lot of the boys get their Eagle senior year, and probably completed their POR a couple of years before. Right now the SPL is 17, the ASPL is 15, patrol leaders 13-15, troop guide 16 - all attend almost every meeting and trip. There are another 2 boys who are 16 - they both miss time for sports, but are on track to earn their Eagle in the next year, plus one who may stay or may drop out (brother is the latest Eagle, which may encourage him to stay.)

Historically, some of the older boys attend almost every meeting and trip through their 18th birthday. Some miss several months a year for school commitments, a few miss a lot of time because they have jobs (but most have stayed as active as they could and earned Eagle), some miss occasionally based on school commitments.

We have a high adventure program (Philmont this summer, hiking the AT and Philmont last summer, Northern Tier the summer before, 3 crews at Philmont the summer before that, plus sailing, rock climbing, canoeing on a regular basis). Some trips have more boys of all ages than others, some have fewer older boys (mainly camporees - they've been there, done that).

We haven't had a problem. I've said it before, offer a good program that the boys are excited about (and that they plan), keep contact with the cub scouts so you maintain the age range in the troop, and the boys will stay active, learn a lot and advance.

We do have an semi-annual patrol competition. Points are awarded for attendance, wearing your uniform, rank advancements, merit badges, quality of cooking and cleanup at campouts, and maybe a few other categories. Usually the new scout patrol wins the competition in September (there are a lot of advancements in those first 6 months). They are split into the regular patrols in September, and one of those patrols (a different one every year since we started) wins in February. Sometimes the point total has come down to attendance at that February Court of Honor. The prizes are either individual (sleeping bag liners, compasses) or for the patrol (new patrol cook kit).(This message has been edited by mtm25653)

We don't have attendance requirements.

If we did, what would we say to:

* the state level wrestler, whose wrestling meets are on the troop meeting night for several months each year?

* the marching band members, who have competitions almost every weekend in the fall, attendance at which is mandatory or their grade is dropped (hard to go to a campout when you have a football game Fri night and a competition from 8 am to 6 pm on Sat)

* the other athletes with practice and games on the troop meeting night? (Do you really expect the football player who practiced for 3 hours after school and has homework to make it to every meeting?)

* the high school students taking extremely heavy course schedules? Should they go to the scout meeting if it means they fail a test? (Several of our scouts from last year started college this year with an entire year's worth of credit from AP classes.)

We have an unofficial policy that both the SPL and ASPL (or PL and APL) can't both be in band, so there is leadership on fall campouts.

What schism?

My son's troop got an entire Webelos den (I think 10 boys) last Saturday. They are all already signed up to go to summer camp. They are going camping with the troop in 2 weeks. They were very active in their Webelos den and pack, and are ready to be boy scouts.

My pack crossed an entire Webelos den (9 boys) into another troop last Sat as well. (Pack started this year - Webelos had been active in pack above before this year.) They are going on a trip with the troop to Gettysburg (from NC) this weekend. Boys were active in the Webelos den and pack, and are ready to be boy scouts. I believe they are also all signed up for boy scout camp.

4th grade Webelos in both packs are active, and ready to take leadership in the pack. The Web I den in my pack are going to Webelos resident camp this summer - their den leader is an ASM in the troop.

Do the leaders in your pack and troop communicate? Do the Webelos visit the troop multiple times during 4th and 5th grade? Do the Webelos get your troop newsletter, so the boys and parents know what what to look forward to? Is the boy scout troop doing exciting things? If so, there's no schism. There's just a great program for the boys. (Each of the 2 troops has about 30 boys - between them there were 8 Eagles in 2006. One is going to Northern Tier this summer, the other to Philmont.)

Our troop may be a little unusual for the rural South, but we have Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Moslem scouts (and a Buddhist leader). At the request of the PLC, some of the adults of different faiths are working on a program to present at several meetings about different faiths. I think my boys have been fortunate to be exposed to people with many different beliefs and traditions. Both our local troops (and both packs) have a large number of boys earning their religious award.

I have had to speak to people at a couple camporees, when the ministers who came to speak at the Sunday service had what amounted to an altar call. The ministers (usually a youth minister not involved in scouting) didn't get why there was a problem, but I think the message has gotten through to the district people who plan the camporee.

I am a CC for the second time. Our monthly meeting includes all leaders - committee members and den leaders. Here is our standard agenda:

Opening (pledge and prayer)

Cubmaster's report

Registrar's report (we try to keep up-to-date to make rechartering easy)

Advancement report/logistics

Recap of prior special events (Feb mtg we reviewed good and bad points of Jan PWD)

Planning for next Pack meeting (who does what)

Update/discussion on next special events (Feb mtg we discussed details of B&G)

Treasurer's report/Fundraising

Training update (when classes are scheduled, who's completed training)

Communications (email lists)

Den reports

Troop report (from troop with same chartered org or other nearby troop)

Open adult positions

Other business

The first few meetings this year, for a brand new pack, ran long, but we can usually get through this in an hour.

We have had some luck getting the boys to walk single file on the center yellow line. (You do need someone to direct them which line to use when there is a turn lane.)

I agree that throwing candy is a bad idea - trying to get them to toss it underhand (instead of using their best pitching form) was not successful (and I don't like kids watching the parade darting into the street to pick up candy.)

Give the boy his rank when he earns it, always.

Earning Wolf in Feb is not out of line (if this was Sept and he was already done, that would make me think the parent was pushing it.) Tiger/Wolf/Bear rank advancements are done primarily with the family, not with the den, so if anyone complains the other boys aren't done, point out that their families could have worked on the advancements just like this boy's family did. In Webelos, most requirements are worked on in the den, so it is less likely one boy would be done early (though some boys may finish later, because they missed meetings/activities).

I don't mind the new mother's pin - I have one of each, and I'm kind of hoping they change it again in the next year, so I can get a third kind.

I'm confused.

Kudu, it seems to me that you are saying that Patrol Cooking is one of the fundamentals and a necessary requirement for the Patrol Method and Real Scouting:

"real Scouting which is based on the Patrol Method. At a bare minimum this would include ... 2) Patrol Cooking: ALL meals cooked in the Scouts' permanent Patrols; ...."

"If its not done in Patrols, its not Scouting: ... The bottom line is Patrol Cooking. "

And, it seems, that Patrol Method started in 1923 and was replaced in 1972 by changes in the program which created Factory Scouting:

"The BSA did not adopt the Patrol Method as a "radical change in the management of troops" until September 21, 1923, "

" the BSA promoted William Hillcourt's BSA Patrol Method as it did before the 1972 Scouting massacre, then ALL "units" would see the Patrol Method as its most basic Scouting "need."

I don't know all the ins and outs of boy scout history, but I do have a copy of the 5th edition "Scouting for Boys" handbook printed in 1950. For second class, the requirements include having to cook several meals for yourself. For first class, the requirements include having to cook several meals for yourself and one other person. The handbook does not include any description or instructions for patrol cooking. The menu ideas, recipes, and equipment lists are all for a single person. So, it seems in 1950, patrol cooking wasn't a focus or a requirement, yet that was during the period of the Patrol Method, 22 years before Factory Scouting.

Can you help me understand the discrepancy?

"The kind of 'scouts' being spoken of are those who have pretty much stopped any scouting activities, then come back 'at the last minute' to get their Eagle. "

But why were they gone? Do you know? Were they on a sports team that had games and practices on meeting night? (I know several scouts in our troop like that.) Were they working to save money for college? (Ditto) Were they taking an incredibly hard school schedule (like the 5 AP courses my son and several of his agemates in the troop did last year-they all started college with enough credit to be sophomores)

Were they applying what they had learned in scouts in "real life" - their sports teams, work or school?

I have had 2 of what you would call "deathbed eagles" and I too find the term offensive. My last son plans to get his eagle in the next year, when he's 16, but he has also decided to try to graduate high school a year early, so he has to complete 2 extra classes (English and Math). And he plays basketball and soccer. And he's working at camp and going to Philmont. He thinks he can do all of those things in the next year. But if not, he will finish school, then do his Eagle project, and get his Eagle shortly before his 18th birthday. Which of his goals in the next 12 months should he put off, so they he can avoid being a what you call "deathbed eagle"?

NeilLup said:

"Not to be too confusing, but there is no requirement at all that a boy be 10.5 to earn the AOL "

That is true, but as of May 15, 2004, a boy under 10 cannot join a boy scout troop, though he could stay on in the cub pack as a Webelos.

Boy Scout Joining Requirements (Scout Badge) from usscouts.org

"Meet age requirements: Be a boy who has completed the fifth grade and be at least 10 years old, or be 11 years old, or have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old, and be under 18 years old. "

The summer camps our troop goes to have "high adventure" programs for older boys, to keep them interested and challenged. My son has done "Mountain Man" for 2 years (and has applied to be on staff this summer) - black powder rifle, tomahawk throwing, blacksmithing, cooking all their own meals in cast iron on an open fire. Other boys in the troop have gone on a 5-6 day canoeing trek, fish camp (all fishing, all-day). I'm pretty sure both of these involve cooking on their own. Other local camps offer a mixed week - mountain biking, canoeing, rock climbing, etc. (a different activity each day) - in this case, I think the boys eat centrally for breakfast and dinner, and take a trail lunch. All of these give the older boys a challenge beyond the typical weekend campout (which for our troop frequently involves backpacking, rock climbing, canoe trips, historic trails, etc.)

I agree that some of the merit badges at a typical camp would be better done away from camp - first aid, for example, or the citizenship badges. But what about swimming - there is no indoor swimming pool in our entire county (70 miles across), and the only public pool is on the opposite side of the county. Or rifle or shotgun - we have experienced leaders to teach tehm, but the place to do the shooting (on a range) is more problematic.

We also like the first year scout program - by summer camp, the new boys have been in a new scout patrol in our troop for 3 1/2 months and have been on 3-4 campouts, one focusing on basic scout skills. The new scout program puts them in patrols for the week, and they get more focus on the basics (which our older boys have taught them, but they get bored/tired of focusing just on basic scout skills for 1/3 of the year.

Membership to REI (if they aren't already members) and a gift card, to use for the equipment as a boy scout leader.

I got a nice hiking staff when I finished 2 years as committee chair.

The building where we meet (which was built with our input) has a large brick chimney, maybe eight feet wide, on the exterior of the building. The things that hold in climbing rocks are embedded in the wall and there is a mechanism for attaching ropes for belaying at the top (can't be more specific, I've never been up there.) A few times a year, a meeting will feature or include climbing the wall, and the rocks are attached for those meetings. Usually we have at least 1 climbing trip a year in the NC mountains. (Our leaders have extensive climbing experience and all the needed equipment.)

We did a pirate theme campout - the boys loved dressing up. We had strips and triangle of fabric for sashes and headbands, eyebrow pencils for mustaches, beards, stubble or scars (adults drew them), temporary tattoos and the gem rings from Oriental trading co.

My 15 yo son has taken Heinlein's list as his goal - we were talking about it just yesterday - he is well on his way, though I don't think he's actually changed a diaper, and he's never had the opportunity to comfort the dying. He can build a wall, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, and cook a tasty meal,

My oldest son's ECoH was held outdoors at his project, an outdoor worship space at our church. The hardest part was getting the older people (my mom was 75) up the path through the woods. The older relatives and guests sat on the benches, some people brought camp chairs and the other scouts stood in the back. It was at 4 pm in Oct, and the sun started to set in the west, directly behind the wooden cross. Afterwards, we had a reception inside the church.

It is helpful if there is one point of contact in the troop for the cub packs/Webelos dens. For the first couple years after my youngest (of 3) moved to Boy Scouts, I served as the Webelos liaison for my troop, since I knew the troop program, but I also knew the pack leaders since I had been one for the previous (8) years. This is a good job for a parent who has experience in the troop but also has ties to the pack.

We have an "intro to boy scouting" for parents, either at a cub campout in the fall, or when a Webelos den comes to visit the troop. I put together a chart of differences between the cub and boy scout programs (e.g., cubs camp 2-3 times a year, with families/boy scouts camp every month, adults camp separately from boys) as well as definitions of boy scout terms (e.g., patrol, board of review, merit badge, patrol leaders council).

We have a new scout campout a few weeks after the Webelos cross over - the older boys teach how to set up a campsite, Fireman's Chip, Tottin' Chip, etc. It's ok for parents to come, but the adults camp away from the patrols, and some troop leaders have the assignment to keep the parents away from the new boys (like if a parent tries to help the boy start a fire, the leader will ask the parent for help somewhere else). We usually leave a space or two for parents of new boys (usually former den leader) to come to summer camp and again, we try to keep them busy.

It seems to work - many of our parents register as ASM or Committee members, so no one is overburdened with responsibilities, and few boys drop out.

Your son's charter school is a good option for recruiting. In my sons' charter school, there are a large number of boy scouts, so no one is considered "odd" if they talk about scouts - one summer 20% of my older son's class (5 boys) went to Philmont together. The teachers know who the scouts are, and give them responsibilities that the boys love (e.g., checking the drinking fountains and changing out the water bottles). Ask if your scouts can do a flag ceremony at the school (for several years, my sons and other scouts raised and lowered the flag every day). As the school grows, your troop can grow with it - and the school may benefit from future Eagle projects. (Our school is about to build it's own building, and we are looking at 8-10 boys doing Eagle projects in the next 3 years.)

"Ireland didn't participate in the war."

Yes, I know. The man said that - but I don't remember exactly the years he was a scout, and he mentioned food rationing during the war, so it was easier for me to say "during WWII" as opposed to the more correct "during years that much of the rest of the world was fighting WWII".

The boys were fascinated by what he had to say - I would think anyone who was a scout in a different country or long ago would be of interest to the boys.

In my experience (12 years as a cub leader), at cub campouts, everyone (adults and scouts) wears their uniform at flag-raising and lowering, campfire and Sunday service. During the day for activities, people mostly take off their uniform shirts and wear t-shirts (if it's warm enough), though some leaders and boys will wear their uniforms all day. Fewer boys have their uniform on later in the day (for flag-lowering and campfire) usually because they ran out of time to change or they forgot.

I don't see a problem with not wearing the uniform for running around, doing water bucket relays and obstacle courses and crafts; the uniform is a dress uniform, for meetings. A campout is not a meeting. If the camp staff were all wearing staff t-shirts, they were easy to identify if someone needed help.

I'm sorry there are troops that don't teach/let the boys learn outdoor skills. I completely agree that you need some leaders skilled in camping and the outdoors. All the troops I know have that, I guess because I'm fortunate to live in a rural area of the south near a large military base. Every troop has leaders who grew up on farms and leaders who are ex (or current) military.

I agree that mentoring is important, but in the troop you described, where the EAgle Scout with no outdoor experience, did the leaders want to learn more and want to be able to teach the boys to be confident in the outdoors?

Our current Committee Chair (and former SM) had never been camping when his oldest boy joined scouts. He learned along with his son. He wanted to learn, so he found opportunities. My son recently commented that this leader's strength was in leading and administration, not the outdoor skills. But under his leadership, this troop (and his previous troop) have gone to a wilderness camp in Canada, rock-climbed every year, made regular backpacking trips (including several to Philmont). He knows a lot, but he also knows what he doesn't know, and turns to other leaders. But most importantly, he thought it was important to learn and to teach those outdoor skills. That's what I think is missing in the kind of troop you mention.