Gone

As a courtesy, and to be ethical, you should also have a full discussion with your chartering organization. Don't leave them out there twisting in the wind.

Already done. We don't make a move without them. It is their status, not ours.

mozartbrau: Tread carefully. Watch the sales pitch. Per BSA guidelines it needs to go a certain way' date=' which may be at odds with the legalese devised by the scout lawyer. review for substance over form.[/quote']

Given this guy knows all three sides of the issue (IRS, Scouting and unit) we are in good shape. It also jives with direct feedback we have gotten from Council. District is clueless. They say to stop fundraising altogether...and yet want us to sell their silly product each year...go figure.

Hmm, can't the CC and SM simply refuse to sign the draft until it is written up to at least minimal expectations? I know my oldest had to do at least two or three drafts of his draft proposal before he could get sign offs from the troop and the project beneficiary.

Yup...and that is what we do now. But that leaves the detailed final plan still undone...or done at the last moment or after the project. And rarely does the final plan match the draft plan. So I was trying to find a way to coach the candidates better without 1) adding a requirement, and 2) adding/subtracting from the process. What I am hearing here is a validation of my thought around compelling the candidates to finish their final plan and present that with their draft proposal for sign off (of the proposal, not the final plan).

Moz' date=' sounds like the problem is with your district advancement chair. Complain loudly at round table that you need a little more backing from higher up when it comes to the planning process.[/quote']

Well, yes. But there is too much politics being played at that level. They have problems keeping volunteers and paid staff, so I figured I could fight the battle within the unit rather than there. To be honest, I won't get much push back from the scouts or parents, only those who want the easy way out.

 

But also, explain to your boys that they should be able to come back to their project 10 years from now, maybe with a wife and kids, and say "Wouldja look at that? The guy who set this up musta been some kind of awesome!" An Eagle candidate must have said "I will do my best ..." sometime during the program. About the only person who knows really what constitutes a boy's best is the boy and his SM. Never let all of this paper pushing get in the way of that.

Exactly. The off things is some of these guys spend hours (we are talking 80+ hours) on school and science projects that would make an engineer blush, so why do they "mail it in" sometimes when it comes to Scouts. We have documented our process, mapped it directly to the requirements and the BSA published Eagle process and are outlining what is expected at each step. I even have a feedback sheet that mirrors the draft proposal for comments to be made. After review of the draft proposal (and the final plan) we will sign the draft proposal. I think this keeps us within all guidelines and the boys get better advice. Consequently the projects are better.

scoutergipper: That's encouraging' date=' but I just spoke to somebody else who said that since a certain individual's name is on the charter paperwork as the Executive Officer that I am out of luck, that he does own the troop number and assets. I guess my next step is to contact the council and get their take on it. Unfortunately our council is sort of in shambles right now with no executive and one brand new DE to cover 4 districts.[/quote']

Or you could contact national. I am sure they would like to talk to the "owner" of the troop and understand why he did not file the paperwork needed to complete the process. I don't see how he can own something that was not done correctly. It is like buying a car, making the minimum down payment but not paying your monthly payment. He does not own anything until he completes the process.

Is this the same as individual testing on the requirements or does it have some other purpose?

Well, an update. Our unit found a tax lawyer who is a Boy Scout leader and spent 20 years as an IRS auditor. He's helping the unit to set up our fund raising program and literature to stay compliant with this new development. According to him, we can still keep out account system, boys can still raise funds for their own purpose....all with only minor modifications to our process, sales pitch and documentation. And he's doing it all pro bono. So if a small unit in the western US can do that, why can't BSA?

We heard of a unit who had a dad attending summer camp and had his son and a friend sleep in his truck with him. Made darn sure the camp director was aware of that one. Had that been my unit that parent would have been on the first train out of camp. We've gone to putting together a one page sheet of the do's, donts, and expectations of the adults at camp. The boys are fine, it's the adults that require the most management.

My take on all of this: The draft is not supposed to help the scout with the final plan. It's just supposed to let everybody know that the scout wants to do "project x" and everybody is in agreement with him developing and implementing a plan to do it. It's between the scout and the "Service Project MBC" (sorry' date=' getting sick of the term Eagle Coach) how much feedback he should get and how solid his plan should be before implementation. Different projects require different levels and types of preparation. Thus, the draft is a blue-card of sorts. That said, our district advancement chair is fairly meticulous about projects, and requests that boys meet with him personally. He likes to see drafts in pretty good condition before giving the go-ahead.[/quote'] We do that now. We require the guys to document their projects well before they get signatures. The problem is two-fold. First, recently scouts have been doing the bare minimum in documenting their proposal. Second, they are almost entirely NOT doing their final project plans prior to doing their project. This has lead to some very, very weak projects which barely meet the requirements. Our District will literally sign anything, so we are trying to see how we can compel the scouts to complete their draft and final plan before doing their project. My answer to Twocubdad is our current approach which I believe still adheres to BSA procedures. I am interested to see how other units handle this. Thanks for the reply.

@Twocubdad, your approach is exactly what our unit follows now. District is not a problem and our EPs exceed what they are looking for. Sadly, that bar is not very high. My concern was getting the Scouts to input as much detail as possible in their draft plan, rather than the one sentence responses we have been getting lately. That's why is was thinking that, since there is nothing I can find in the documentation prohibiting it, I would hold the approval signature n the draft proposal until after we saw the detailed final plan. That process would seem to be in line with BSA's directive around not approving the final plan, but would still allow the units to see the additional thought the scouts need to demonstrate. The other side of that rock is more scouts having to re-do their project for lack of leadership as a result of poor planning. If a scout (or his parents) want to blow the whistle on me to District, they can be my guest. My unit won't be handing out Eagle. We do that too much (collectively) as an organization already. Thanks for the feedback.

Technically, you can switch any time you want...it is just easier in the summer.

Sorry for the tread-jack, but I did not want to start another thread since I think this question might be related.

The Eagle workbook requires the draft proposal to be signed off which indicates approval to begin the project. The detailed project plan, while not requiring approval (which I read as rquiring a review and signature), is alledged to be used as the template for the project's execution...or so it would seem from the excerpt below.

1. [*=1]It provides sufficient opportunity to meet the Eagle Scout service project requirement. You must show that planning, development, and leadership will take place; and how the three factors will benefit a religious institution, a school, or your community.[*=1]It appears to be feasible. You must show the project is realistic for you to complete.[*=1]Safety issues will be addressed. You must show you have an understanding of what must be done to guard against injury, and what will be done if someone does get hurt.[*=1]Action steps for further detailed planning are included. You must make a list of the key steps you will take to make sure your plan has enough details to be carried out successfully.[*=1]You are on the right track with a reasonable chance for a positive experience.
   

Your proposal need only be detailed enough to show a reviewer that you can meet the tests above. If you find in order to do that, the proposal must be lengthy and complicated, your project might be more complex than necessary.

I have found the draft proposals to be too light, despite the fact they meet the requirements outlined above. Because they are light the document does little to help the Scout develop the detail needed for the detailed "final plan". Lastly, when Scouts get those draft plan signatures they are usuall off and running with their projects, perhaps paying only little attention to doing the final plan prior to project execution or even doing it after the fact.

So here's my question. I suspect the answer is that the Eagle "coach" (or whatever) should ask to see the final plan before project start. Assuming that is not done, does anyone see a reason why the SM could not ask to see a copy of the final plan before they sign off on the draft plan? How have others handled this?

We participate in Scouting for Food in the winter with the council and do our own project benefitting the local food pantries and soup kitchens in the summer. Over the past three years we have collected something on the order of 50' date='000 pounds of food. In the fall we do a day of service at a local quasi-public park where we camp regularly. And we average about four Eagle projects per year we require at least two work days each. [/quote'] An excellent example of doing just a few projects with a HIGH impact.

I would be upfront about my past and still volunteer. Let BSA sort it out. From my conversations with scout execs, they are looking for felons and sex offenders, not guys in your position. Heck, remind them there are Scouts who have stolen things and are still in Scouting.

Do you make taking and/or "passing" the quizzes a requirement for merit badge sign off?

Do you think that Scouting will exist in next 50 years? Considering that the scouts of today will be my age in 50 years' date=' that can be a scary thought . [/quote'] ...and our Scoutmasters were thinking the same thing 35 years ago about us...now look at us. We spend what is left of our free time chatting about the topic over a medium that was solely for geeks 35 years ago. Time moves on, geeks don't.

Wow' date=' I guess we can scratch service to others off the list of scouting tools and contributions to the community. Seems pretty thin to me.[/quote'] What I posted was the minimum. Each troop does 4-5 more projects each year, as well as projects their CO does to support them, plus 2-3 projects that just pop up during the year. So all in all we are talking over 10-12 projects a year which is one a month. That's a pretty good ratio I think @eagle00, 17 Eagle projects!! That's a lot of Eagles in three years. Must have a huge troop.

What is the purpose of the quizzes?

To see what they have retained as part of the course.

Most units do Scouting for Food, Eagle projects and usually something to help their charter organization. That's a bare minimum I have seen.

The ratios mozartbrau and Stosh suggest seem right to me. Try a 1:4 ratio of oil to corn and adjust as necessary.

Gosh I hope so...I was reading the label on my cool table-top theater-style popcorn popper. Hell, even made a batch because this thread made me hungry.

Can we start a margarita thread? Am getting thirsty.

 

Our RT commish said he talked to tax people and other lawyers, so I've been trying to relay the thinking that he learned. Nobody said troops with ISA's of the magnitude we're talking would be of any concern.

 

Problem with tax rulings: they allow "wiggle room." But, on this end it sounds like we're playing a big game of "hot potato"!

Oddly enough I have heard the same thing, from a similar source with a very different answer.

Funny how that works.

No, it does not assume. Youth have come to me with plans for weekend campout or hike. They have various qualifications (certified EMT, seasoned hiker, etc ...) and I would advise them on their plan, loan gear (sometimes give keys to the car), and bless them as they went on their way. Who am I to gainsay a solid plan by requiring them to take on two more persons who may add cost and risk to the venture?

So....you send a group of boys out without adults? Didn't think this was allowed by BSA.

So is this training required by your Council? Sounds like someone got bored and wanted to make themselves relevant somehow.

Is there lighter training too?

I got dirty looks at a recent meeting when I said "I'll take a good Life Scout over a on-paper Eagle any day".

LOL...said the same thing at a recent TC meeting. The looks I got could have killed.

^^^^^

This!!! ROFL!!!

I'm kinda with dcsimmons on this. Wood and charcoal work just fine for outdoors and there's no stoves to drag in' date=' no fuel to buy/bring and one can use a Bic lighter (or worse case scenario, a match) to start it without any council hassle.[/quote']

Have a cousin that lives in Texas. Where he lives they have not be able to have open fires (consistently month to month) since 2009. Here's the latest burn ban map.