Bando

BadenP, that's all well and nice, but in my experience with these "nondenominational" services, that isn't what happens. It's treated as a replacement for regular worship in a Scout's home tradition, regardless of what the blanket intent is supposed to be. And, no, I'm not asking for "a mini Christian scriptures service." Rather, I'm pointing out that Scout's Own and the like are a pretty poor attempt at pleasing everyone, and really end up serving no one by cherrypicking a little of this and a little of that in a pretty narrow way.

I'm Orthodox Christian. I barely (if ever) run into other Orthodox Scouts and Scouters, aside from the National Jamboree, so I'm one of those people for whom a "Scout's Own" service does little to satisfy my own usual worship tradition because it NEVER reflects who I am as a Christian. Ever. The Christian portions of these services are more often than not Protestant in look and feel. The Christian point of view put forth in the usual "Scout's Own" is very narrow and specific in comparison to the wider spectrum of Christianity. And, after all, what is a Christian portion of a service if they can't even mention Christ?

I'll be honest and say I get little to nothing out of a "Scout's Own" or other "non-denominational" Scouting service. I respect the role they hold in maintaining that "A Scout is Reverent," and they do a fairly good job of reminding us we are in nature and an environment where there are people of many different traditions and understandings of God(s). But that doesn't necessarily mean they do a good job of making the individual partaking of them feel like they're actively worshipping.

Another reason I don't particularly like the catch-all services is because I'm not overly comfortable with some of the elements brought into them. I'm not comfortable reading from the Book of Mormon, I'm not completely comfortable reading prayers outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and I don't feel much of anything reading Native American prayers sourced from God knows where. That's not to say that I don't respect someone's right to adhere to that tradition, or that I look down on them for believing things different than me, but that doesn't mean I feel comfortable being roped into a worship services that incorporates their theological ideas. I'm sure some of them feel the same way about that, too.

Part of me thinks the time might better be spent allowing each person to spend time worshipping in their own way, a "meditation hour" or "prayer hour" or something, instead of putting us all in a generic worship setting where we get a little of everything and almost nothing that is actively useful to a good portion of the congregants. There's a point at which we try too hard to incorporate everyone and offend no one, and it ends up just being so watered down there's nothing left but empty platitudes. Make everyone get into their Class A, go to the chapel or even the middle of the woods or something, tell everyone to grab a stump, and do that which is comfortable to them. Tell everyone to bring a prayer book or materials or whatever they might want for their own worship ahead of time so that they're all prepared, and there you go. I'd much rather spend an hour on a stump reading the Bible or my personal daily devotions than sitting through a Scout's Own.

As for the idea that a Scout's Own isn't supposed to be a religious service, or not a replacement for religious worship, I don't know how you could come to that conclusion. The point is that we're at camp and we can't attend our normal places of worship, so in order to fulfill our reverence, we worship together non-denominationally. That's why Scout's Own and other things of that ilk exist...(This message has been edited by Bando)

My parents got me a lifetime membership when I earned my Eagle a decade ago. Since then, the only benefit I see is the magazine showing up at my house from time to time, no more, no less. It occasionally has some nice articles, but other than that, I don't see a real need to have a glorified quarterly yearbook of the rather demographically homogeneous group of Eagles they give scholarships to each and every year.

NESA can and should do more, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't.

I recently returned from camp with my troop and attended my first "Scout's Own" service. First time I had experienced a "Scout's Own," in my day it was just "interdemoninational" or "non-denominational" worship. I don't personally get a lot out of these as they are pretty foreign to my own faith practice, and I don't feel particularly comfortable reading prayers from certain other faith traditions, but I realize they have their place and it's important to keeping reverent while at camp.

I bring this up because it was the first time I'd ever seen the hat passed at a camp worship service, and while I gave because the appeal was for camperships, I still found it a bit odd. The scouts were not notified about this beforehand, and I know a lot of them (especially the younger guys) didn't have much pocket money left, if they had anything at all. It just struck me as a bit out of place. I can't really tell you why, but it seemed strange to me.

The situation initially cited here seems completely inappropriate, as I believe in the spirit of a "let's not offend anyone" Scout's Own service, it's more appropriate to use the funds for a scouting purpose, or a charitable purpose, not to produce religious prayer cards, which for a good portion of campers would not be useful or acceptable.

"You just proved my point. it took you 3 plus hours to answer this email when I replied and by that time I was somewhere else. My point is everybody is not waiting and staring at their computers waiting on an email but we all have phones. Office, cell, and home phones. "

Did you read my post? I was not given the phone number, only several email addresses, and even if I called now, as I and others have posted, they're not going to be in the home office. There's no point. As far as I know there is no publicly accessible directory for personal phone numbers of Irving staffers. And as for how long it took me to respond, I check my email several times per hour, most times more often than that. I visit the Scouter Network maybe once a day. That's not indicative of anything.

The point of the matter is that the medical forms have proven to be a complete and total fiasco, and there are many more of us than necessary who are going to AP Hill with issues hanging over our heads and no one to give us the answer until we show up with medical form in hand to await their judgment. I'm not worried about getting through, I'm just frustrated by how difficult this situation has been to navigate.

I find the chest pockets to be nice for stashing counselor stubs of blue cards, the occasional trinket, a patch or two received along the way... Now that silly pocket on the left sleeve? No idea. Absolutely no clue.

Well, I wasn't given a phone number, only several email addresses for people at Nationals. Not really my choice to go that route...

And wouldn't it be fairly pointless to call Irving now anyway? Aren't all personnel at AP Hill? And if they were, being that this is the "most connected Jamboree ever," wouldn't they be theoretically checking their email?

What gets me about uniforming, and this is only somewhat applicable to this thread, is how Nationals have gone about promoting full uniforming in their publications and promotional materials.

Look closely at most anything that comes out of Irving. See all those people in uniforms? What don't they have about 99% of the time?

I stand up for the neckerchief because, to me, it's an integral part of the uniform. You think Boy Scout, you think neckerchief. I can deal (sort of) with the obliteration of the knee socks, but I really wonder why Nationals has decided to so obviously de-emphasize the neckerchief. I know, I know, it's "optional," but why not at least present it instead of the open-collar shirt nearly every time? And we wonder why the neckerchief seems to be falling by the wayside...

(Isn't it obvious I grew up in a troop where head-to-toe complete uniform was required at every troop meeting? )

Two of the best scouts I ever knew, they were brothers, never made it past Star and Life, respectively. So many leaders openly questioned why neither of them got to Eagle, and why there was nothing that would cause them to budge when it came to advancement. It would have been so easy for them, two kids who were obviously brilliant, hard-working, high achievers at every single thing they did, leaders in school, sports, and the community...

Yet neither of them really cared about Eagle. Why? Because they wanted to camp and hike and canoe and have fun with their friends and not get bogged down in the advancement game. Would it have been hard for them to do? Nope. But that wasn't the point.

Not a lot of people really respected that, but seeing them in action, they needed Scouting as a vehicle for the adventures they wanted to do and the friends they wanted to be with. They didn't need Eagle or any rank to build their resume, or feel like they needed validation for being good people or good leaders, because they were the personification of both of those values. It just wasn't a priority. And it was refreshing to see two young men stand up for what THEY wanted out of Scouting, instead of what their leaders wanted for them, which in our troop was a common motivation for anything getting done.

I think those guys are the way I've molded my thinking about advancement. If a kid wants it, he'll get it. It's our job as adults to facilitate opportunities and provide mentorship to make it happen. Yet it's not our job to want it more than the kid wants it, or make him value or want it because we obviously want it in a disproportionate amount to his level of interest. There has to be a two-way street- what he as a youngster wants to get out of the program, and our recognition of those goals in what we do as leaders.

My Medicals were red-flagged for something relatively minor and completely unrelated to what I would be doing at Jamboree, and I was notified about it over a month ago. That afternoon, I faxed in the required information that would have put an end to it. Since then, I've heard absolutely nothing aside from emails from several people in the administration of my program area saying I was still red-flagged and to email someone at Nationals about it. I emailed said person, and have again heard nothing back.

Am I going to get all the way to Virginia and get rejected? Am I going to have to go sit down with a doctor and hash this thing out for hours before I can get settled in? I mean, it was pretty amazing to get held up in the first place, I just put the issue on my form in the interest of full disclosure and completeness. What gives? Has this happened to anyone else?

Yep. Can't think of any reason why a troop meeting shouldn't include the full uniform, unless there were skills or activities being taught that required something else.

moosetracker, Bugling hasn't counted for a POR for Life for a very, very long time. It's always been a bit ambiguous, and a lesser-rank position only. I remember a typo in the Requirements book caused me to have to delay a Board of Review for (I think) Star because no one was sure whether or not Bugling actually counted past First Class. It did, apparently, just not for anything past Star.

Frankly, I can't believe Bugling is being phased out as a POR. Although you can certainly see the writing on the wall. You can't even buy a bugle from Supply anymore. Was 2001 the last time a National Jamboree had an official commemorative bugle available?

One has to look to the requirements to know why Bugling is a few-and-far-between merit badge. Is there likely to be more than one bugler in a troop at any given time? In a 12-month period, if you keep it to exactly 3 months, there's 4 candidates for the MB right there. You can have 40 kids in a troop in a given year earn any of the other non-Eagle-required badges. I know that's not the only reason Scouts aren't earning the MB, but it has to be part of it. Are there any other MB's that require a specific Position of Leadership for completion?

Not that I'm advocating that the 3-month requirement be dropped from the requirements, but considering the high-profile nature of Bugling in the tradition of Scouting in the United States, I just think this is a bit short-sighted. Was Bugling taking up some amount of valuable resources or stopping another important life skill from being a MB of its own? Isn't Bugling more important and appropriate to Scouting than Geocaching?

I'd love to see Nationals preserve the Bugling MB and couple it with a promotional campaign to encourage troops to utilize buglers and fit bugle calls into their programming, encourage Scouts to give it a shot, and revitalize an important part of Scouting instead of systematically putting it to bed by making it an elective portion of Music MB.

Now, this may be a sign of me getting old... But does anyone else feel as if patch sets are getting out of hand? When I went as a youth, you had your 6 or 7-patch sets, one for each contingent troop in a council plus a staff or adult patch or two, maybe a jacket patch, an OA flap, maybe a t-shirt to go with it. I know I traded my sets and troop t-shirts and stuff for other council sets, and came home with some cool stuff. But there wasn't anything that was out of reach or too many patches to collect.

This year, it seems there's many councils out there with 20 or 25-patch sets! Unique JSP's for each patrol in a troop, etc. Not only does this make trading a rather difficult proposition, but it's expensive. I got the order form for my council's patches and just decided I simply can't afford trading this time around. I picked up a few extras to trade with people at my staffing location, but that's it.

Is it time for Nationals to rein in JSP parameters for 2013? When is creativity and originality going too far?

I don't think there's any proble or issue with a scout taking time to earn a couple merit badges at Jamboree. I earned 4 or 5 MB's when I went in 2001, although admittedly for a few of those we shopped around to find the ones you could knock out in an hour or two. (I never owned a pet growing up, yet I have Veterinary Medicine MB thanks to NJ!) I will say, though, that earning Atomic Energy MB at Jamboree was one of the coolest things I did in Scouting. That's the one MB I always wanted to get, my dad was one of the first to get it when it was introduced in the 60's, and with 3 or 4 afternoon sessions in a tent with a few people who ran a nuclear facility in Texas, I got it. There wasn't a counselor at home to do it. Learned a lot, and certainly remember it more fondly than 5 more hours of patch trading.

Jamboree offers the opportunity to take, if I'm not mistaken, every single merit badge the BSA offers. If there's one out there for which a scout has no hope of finding a counselor at home, and they've got a little time, why not do it? Jamboree is more than patch trading and looking at tanks and humvees parked in a field. Why not get some advancement work done? Every time you look at your sash you're going to remember where you earned that badge.

Apologies if this has already been addressed...

It's been announced by Nationals that the Bugling MB will be merged with Music MB beginning in January 2011. As a former bugler, someone who earned the MB, and now as a MB counselor for both Music and Bugling, this is a pretty disappointing development.

Bugler has always been treated as a sort of second-rate leadership position, but an important part of why it was still relevant and attractive was the merit badge. Bugling MB provides a great framework to adequately train a bugler to be successful in a troop setting, as it's an important part of the scouting experience.

I know it's a dying art, and I've been fighting an uphill battle in my own troop to get the buglers to do more than just Taps at the troop meetings and Courts of Honor, but I can't help but think killing the merit badge will make bugling a true thing of the past. I really believe it's an entirely separate entity from the Music MB, and a skill that's more than an elective portion of Music. I also feel badly for the scouts I'm currently working with on the MB, as they've been waiting their turn to get in their 3 months as Troop Bugler to earn the badge, and I doubt they'll get it in before the MB goes *poof* in January.

Just my 2 cents. Saw it come across the BSA twitter and it's been digging at me ever since.

"I heard it on the "Penn and Tellers "B.S" " episode on the boy scouts."

And it's not true. Sorry.(This message has been edited by Bando)

"Also people have been stripped of there eagle rank, most notably the founder of the "Scouting for all" movement. "

Steven Cozza has not been stripped of his Eagle award. If I'm not mistaken, both he and his father had their membership revoked, but Steven is still an Eagle Scout. Likely an urban legend you picked up along the trail.

Nick, you stated:

"1-Hes an Eagle making him a role model, do you want a gay person to be the boys role model?

2-I doubt many boys will want to tent with him( I wouldnt)it wouldnt be safe.

3-Its dangerous."

1- The BSA agrees with you, but the question is why?

2- Why wouldn't it be safe? Are all homosexuals inclined to automatically attempt to have sex with anything they're attracted to? Do heterosexual boys feel unsafe being in a classroom with heterosexual girls? If the boy was good enough to be friends with and have the trust of his peers in all of his years of Scouting before he earned his Eagle award, what makes it different if he decides to make public something he has likely known about himself the entire time?

3- Dangerous? Again, why? That's the fundamental problem I have with the homophobia here and elsewhere when it comes to this issue: There's an underlying sense that there's something inherently menacing about gay people. I had a gay dorm roommate in college. I had a gay housemate in college, too. Was it dangerous? Did I feel endangered? Absolutely not.

If you don't believe a gay person isn't a correct role model for children as an adult leader, fine. But let's not sit here and pretend that it's a menacing danger. Especially for a youth member, who is, by BSA rules, asexual to begin with. That's just ignorance at work.(This message has been edited by Bando)

BDPT100, when you say "It seems clear to me that he wants to play political football with my organization," there are many of us who disagree with BSA policy who would say the exact same thing to you.

Lisabob is 100% correct here. He is, as far as the BSA is concerned, asexual.

2 for 2 Deep Leadership

Sorry, just had to

John, what about the members of the BCA for which the Epistles have no bearing? Jews immediately come to mind. That's certainly not "canon" for them. Which God are you talking about?

I was recently at a council dinner, a crowd of adult scouters and Scouting supporters from all over the area. And the person giving the invocation decided to end it with a very evangelical Christian prayer, finishing with "In Jesus' name we pray, Amen."

I wonder what that says to the Jewish scouter. or the Buddhist. or the Muslim. And we're in an area of the country where it isn't out of the ordinary to expect that there would be at least one person in the room of any of those three faith communities.

The BSA is NOT a Christian organization. It's time to stop acting like it is. It's an organization that recognizes and encourages the belief in a higher power, but that doesn't mean Christian theology is the basis of all policy decisions.

Our committee meetings are open to whoever wants to come, we usually get about 30ish people who show up (there's ~80 registered scouters in our troop, our membership is around 125 youth). We have a few former scoutmasters who show up and generally don't say much, our SPL comes, and we have very good meetings with a lot of great discussion. No real problems, no real griping, no clashes, and everybody goes home happy. It hasn't always been that way, but that's how it is now. We don't have random parents who come and complain their kid isn't getting enough of this or that or the other thing, either.

If I'm not mistaken, National policy indicates that a parent is welcome to observe any Scout activity. Nothing is secret or off-limits. Now, that doesn't mean they're participating if they're not a registered leader, or that they're supposed to (or encouraged to) "hover," but it is not correct to say that "mothers are not allowed."

I'd like to see the context of that sentence in the welcome email, but as presented, it comes off as odd.

Great idea for a merit badge, I was looking forward to helping some scouts earn this one, but the requirements are incredibly poor for what it could be.