Bando

How is your poker face? Do you have any tells?

 

Can you lie to anyone and not carry any guilt?

 

Stealing,? Can you lose expense reports, fail to turn in apps and funds associated with them and not feel bad about it?

 

How do you feel about keeping your word? Is it optional or you spin a story to keep your ass out of hot water?

 

you need to identify affluent units and influential people very quickly in your district

 

 

Story telling, keep stringing people along with hope until your transferred out of your district to the new......hopefully the people you burned in the old district don't call the new one.

Yes, we should demand the best out of our Pros. Do we always get it? Absolutely not. But it seems to me a lot of folks come out guns-blazing, ready to shoot down a young DE just because the last one didn't work out, and the poor guy or gal doesn't even stand a chance. That's what I see in BD's post, not the kinds of substantive questions and issues you bring up, qwazse.

How is your poker face? Do you have any tells?

 

Can you lie to anyone and not carry any guilt?

 

Stealing,? Can you lose expense reports, fail to turn in apps and funds associated with them and not feel bad about it?

 

How do you feel about keeping your word? Is it optional or you spin a story to keep your ass out of hot water?

 

you need to identify affluent units and influential people very quickly in your district

 

 

Story telling, keep stringing people along with hope until your transferred out of your district to the new......hopefully the people you burned in the old district don't call the new one.

Are there some bad professionals out there? Sure. But there's a lot more who work this pretty thankless job with long hours and (ridiculously) low pay, helping facilitate programs our scouts use on a daily basis, and love to do it for all the same reasons we love the BSA. Why be so cynical?

"If I take this position, I fully expect to stay with it and remain within my area"

It's my impression, and this was told to me straight-up when I interviewed for a DE position, is that the BSA discourages this. The idea is you spend a few years in one council, and then you'll be sent somewhere else. That may not be the case now, it's been about three or four years, but it was pretty clearly stated if I were to get the job that I would expect to move on somewhere else after a few years.

I was told by my UC it is a big deal when a unit folds under a DE. Sounds like he was trying to resurrect the unit and then dropped the ball.

I guess it's easier to just assume the worst and blame the usually-underpaid and overworked DE, but there are a number of ways this could go down. And the blame isn't solely on the DE. It's unfortunate, but it happens.

Someday, I envision a scout wearing a cape containing 120+ merit badges with a Schiff Reservation patch in center, after all that is what the S means.

Basement, us too at camp last year. We got up 45 minutes before flag, and missed it. Then the SPL did 60 and missed it. We had to go to 90 before we (barely) made it. And we were really close to the parade ground. Teens!

I'll join the choir and say that having been to Philmont in June-early July, I'd say you can always sleep on top of your 20-degree bag. Options are better than being cold for ten nights.

As for the pack, you'll see and hear some pretty crazy stuff about how much space you really need for Philmont, how much gear you really need, weight (that insane guy who saws off the handle of his toothbrush, etc.), but the answer is always how much space you think you need for your personal gear, with plenty of space for crew gear. Use the shakedown hikes to figure this out, and know that when you get to base camp, your guides will be pitching stuff out of your pack left and right. You never realize just how little you really need out there.

also I'm thinking requirements such as:

 

14 years old

First Class or higher

physically able to hike 10 miles per day for 5 days

Orienteering badge

first aid badge

camping badge

wilderness survival badge

only able to miss 1 of the training trips (reasons for missing more than 1 will be considered)

That's a great idea to involve the whole troop, Stosh.

We took a couple of guys along on a trip I went on as a scout. They had met some of our guys on a council-wide Philmont crew, and when we needed a couple extra guys, they were invited to come along. We ended up having a great time, and it couldn't have gone better. One of them ended up coming to our troop for help with his Eagle project because his troop was having some problems, and a lot of our guys went to both of their ECOHs, if memory serves. We all became friends. Ultimately, it was a win for everyone.

Shoe laces???? I was teaching my new scout about knots. I asked him if he was Prepared with a piece of rope/string. Nope, I thought I saw him wearing the thick soled canvas gym shoes that are popular. I offered up, "Why not use a shoe lace?" Much to my surprise, no laces! How do kids today keep 1) their shoes on, or 2) avoid blisters caused by loose rubbing shoes?

 

Stosh

We're a long way from knee socks...

I would take the up on the camporee offer and see how the unit camps.

 

They sound pretty good despite all of the woodbadge trained adults.

 

The fact they are in teh best school district in the state means it is a wealthy area with parents who are engaged with their lads. Money means full uniforms, and a much more interesting program. I bet their gear is top notch too.

 

 

Make your other visits....I am going to bet this is where you land.

But, hey, what do I know? I guess it's a lot easier to see the worst in people.

I seem to remember having cookies at the end of pack meetings when I was a Cub, and maybe there was a box of Oreos or something that went around the table at our den meetings, but it was never a big deal.

Honestly, don't see much harm in it.

I would take the up on the camporee offer and see how the unit camps.

 

They sound pretty good despite all of the woodbadge trained adults.

 

The fact they are in teh best school district in the state means it is a wealthy area with parents who are engaged with their lads. Money means full uniforms, and a much more interesting program. I bet their gear is top notch too.

 

 

Make your other visits....I am going to bet this is where you land.

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

I'm sorry you're having this problem, but from my perspective, you might want to try to use scouting for positive, not punitive ends, and see what happens from there. There are ways of helping this boy within scouting without sending him packing. Either you or another leader (maybe both, to ensure two-deep) could volunteer to meet with him isolated from a troop situation for a while and work on a merit badge or scoutcraft skill. Use that as a teaching moment and opportunity to help him better interact with others. It might be all he needs is to know someone actually cares about him enough to take an interest. You don't know why he's being violent, or what other issues there may be under the surface. It could be all he needs is a little boost and/or attention. Maybe if he has a buddy in the troop, you could partner them up as a kind of accountability-buddy situation while he's working his way back to the full troop setting. The keys here are controlled contact and expressed concern, with reasonable expectations for behavioral modification. Stay positive, but firm, set out your expectations, and be persistent. If he doesn't want to be a part of it, let him make that decision on his own instead of you or the troop committee making that decision for him. Give him incentives to want to be better, and hold him to your expectations.

These are kids. Their habits and personalities are not etched in stone. We can either take the opportunity to be part of the solution in helping a kid who isn't making good choices and decisions, or we can get quick on the trigger to point fingers, make hasty judgments, or bail altogether. I err towards the former. If you err towards the latter, that's your choice, but it strikes me as the easy way out.

I had scouting buddies along the way who had both approaches applied to them by different scout leaders. Fifteen years down the road, having kept tabs on a lot of them, the ones who had an adult who took an active interest and used the troop framework to make a goodwill effort to help them through their problems made it a heck of a lot farther than the guys who were sent packing.

As adults, we're not here for the easy scouts, but to help the difficult ones up the trail, right? Call it altruistic, but I've seen it work over and over and over again. Scouting is designed to help boys develop leadership skills and become better people in a world that often presents them with adversity. So shouldn't we be trying to find ways not only to nurture those ideals, but also exhibit them ourselves?

Some years ago, there was an older boy in my son's troop who wound up going to a juvy like alternative school. His next step was prison. I think it was drugs, not violence. There was a scout troop at the school and this boy joined it. He became a leader and when he left the school, he returned to our troop and made Eagle. I saw his dad recently and learned that he was so inspired by the second chance he'd been given in scouting that he went to college AND grad school, became a social worker and is an ASM for a troop for troubled kids. Sometimes, a kid takes a bad turn but keeping him on a good path can turn him back on the right path. Scouting didn't give up on him and he realized he could do it the right way. Note that my feelings differ about violence - I don't think kids who hurt other kids belong in scouting at all.

Sometimes it's hard work, but isn't it worth trying to keep a kid in the program instead of making him deal with his problems without a nurturing environment like a scout troop?

My son did not have an eagle coach or eagle advisor. We saw them mentioned in the stack of paperwork he had to fill out, but it was a PIA just to track down the person who is supposed to sing off so he can start, let alone try to find anyone else. The man who signed the OK for my son's project didn't even read the proposal.

 

I've always wondered how a boy could earn his eagle by completing a project that the city didn't want, didn't approve, and ultimately removed; now I understand exactly how that happens; there isn't anyone to actually help the lads!

Bando,

 

The hoops were there back then too. I also had the added hoop of a DAC asking me what I would do if I wasn't approved for Eagle. When I asked why and was told because HE didn't approve my Eagle project, I had to emphasize that A) the then DAC, who was sitting on my EBOR, reviewed it, approved it and it was executed as such and if that is the only reason for my denial, then how do I go about appealing the decision becasue it is NOT correct.

 

RS,

 

Agree completely. I prefer how my council growing up did it with a district/council rep on the committee's EBOR. BUT the challenge with that is that you have to rely on when the individual can meet. We had 1 Eagle who could not get his EBOR before going to boot camp with delayed entry, and when he did get back, the rep couldn't be there until after the deadline. So he appealed to council/national for the post 90 day extension and got it.

What I'm saying is beyond local circumstance and personal experience, the paperwork, regulations, and restrictions the BSA continues to build into the Eagle advancement process is far and away more complicated now than it was even ten years ago. We all had snafus and problems along the way, but the complexity now considered the basic expectation from Nationals (and their increasingly confusing, mixed messages about how changes are to be implemented) only amplifies these kinds of things. Having worked with a lot of scouts who were trying to get from Life to Eagle, sat on a few dozen EBORs in the last five or so years, and seen firsthand the kinds of changes being made, it's a testament to the kinds of well-trained and patient leaders we have in our neck of the woods (at the troop, district, and council levels alike) that things still find a way to go smoothly most of the time. The BSA isn't making it any easier, as usual.

The "when I got Eagle" thing just doesn't apply here. I finished in 2001, and the kinds of hoops the scouts are expected to jump through now are nowhere near what I had to do. Even with the newly streamlined paperwork, it's a new world out there. The SM simply isn't the point man in all cases in most troops I've encountered along the trail.

The "when I got Eagle" thing just doesn't apply here. I finished in 2001, and the kinds of hoops the scouts are expected to jump through now are nowhere near what I had to do. Even with the newly streamlined paperwork, it's a new world out there. The SM simply isn't the point man in all cases in most troops I've encountered along the trail.

You can never figure them out... I had two brothers in the troop a while back. One is now a professional photographer. Never passed the photography merit badge. The other has an MBA in Music, and is the High School Band director. Yep - never got the Music merit badge. Go figure!!!

Not exactly the same, but you reminded me of something similar. The scoutmaster of one of the best troops in our district once told me that the best scout he ever had never advanced past second class. This scout was a better a camper, leader, and all around scout than any other scout or adult this highly respected SM had ever known. The scout just didn't care about advancement. A few years later I had a scout just like him. He is truely a natural leader and was an outstanding all around scout, but he had zero desire for any of the processes of advancement in the program. How could the best SPL ever not want to advance. He in my persepective was the epitome of the Eagle and I felt he needed the Eagle to represent the kind of person he is, even today. So I applied constant pressure for him to advance, and I hurt everytime when I think about how I drove him off. That SM was trying to teach me something, why didn't I listen? I changed my philosphy about adults setting goals for scouts after that. You know what the say about "assume". I bare many scares of its humily. Barry

If reading the pamphlet included the information you need to complete the process, you would have a point, Base. But how much of the real, actual approval is left up to the local districts and councils to implement. Hell, the process here has changed two or three times SINCE the new workbook came out.

 

We have long had a couple ASMs and myself who work with the Scouts on their Eagle projects. Before the new workbook came our, ours was a council that had a two page checklist of required touch points proposal were required to contain -- one of which was a copy of the completed checklist cross referenced with the page numbers where each item could be found. One of my ASMs is a black belt Six-Sigma instructor and he thought the process was insane.

 

Now that the proposal process has been streamlined, we don't have to focus so much on paperwork and BS. One of my ASMs is a draftsman and helps the boys with the plans for their projects (typically earning Drafting MB along the way). For a number of reasons (mostly tradition) our guys tend to do projects which include some sort of construction, so there is a fair bit of ejamacation the scouts need. -- when in your Scout career are you taught to build a picnic table or lay brick for a fire ring?

And RememberSchiff, that's definitely something our scouts learn from the process. But the BSA always doesn't make it easy for them to do so, especially when there are district and council egos that can get in the way, or project agency contacts that drop the ball or do something screwy along the way. The Eagle Coordinator isn't a crutch, but a last line of defense (and occasional advocate) to make sure the scout's efforts towards fulfilling the process are successful. He hands the scout the all-important BSA packet, gives him some pointers on the basics of how it works and the right order of doing things in terms of what needs approval and what doesn't, and it's the scout's job to follow up periodically with his progress. The kids usually find a project that interests them, though if they need some guidance or a good contact or two to pursue, they'll ask, and they'll get it. Especially if the troop has been contacted by an agency with a specific need (for instance, when the local food bank we often work with was in crisis mode and desperately needed a food drive so they wouldn't have to close their doors to needy families). If scouts need help along the way, they'll ask, and they'll get it. If a kid gets a packet and disappears for six months (which sometimes happens with kids who are playing sports, doing other activities, etc.), he might get a phone call asking if everything is OK. And if there's a problem, it often gets caught early enough to not waste both the scout's and the council's time. A little vigilance on both parties' parts can go a very long way, especially with the way the Eagle process is now constituted.

In sum, the scout does the work, but the adults are there to help him along the way if he needs it. Emphasis on needs. Some kids are total self-starters, while some guys need a little prodding along the way. In this age group, that's normal. Not all scouts are created equal, and holding them all to the same standard of rugged individualism isn't always fair or useful. It's the Eagle Coordinator's job to know the difference, and to know how to best handle each situation. After all, we want our scouts to be successful, right?

If reading the pamphlet included the information you need to complete the process, you would have a point, Base. But how much of the real, actual approval is left up to the local districts and councils to implement. Hell, the process here has changed two or three times SINCE the new workbook came out.

 

We have long had a couple ASMs and myself who work with the Scouts on their Eagle projects. Before the new workbook came our, ours was a council that had a two page checklist of required touch points proposal were required to contain -- one of which was a copy of the completed checklist cross referenced with the page numbers where each item could be found. One of my ASMs is a black belt Six-Sigma instructor and he thought the process was insane.

 

Now that the proposal process has been streamlined, we don't have to focus so much on paperwork and BS. One of my ASMs is a draftsman and helps the boys with the plans for their projects (typically earning Drafting MB along the way). For a number of reasons (mostly tradition) our guys tend to do projects which include some sort of construction, so there is a fair bit of ejamacation the scouts need. -- when in your Scout career are you taught to build a picnic table or lay brick for a fire ring?

There's nothing in the Eagle requirements that says a scout can't or shouldn't get help from an adult. We're not there to do everything for them, but we're not there to sit on our hands and watch them screw up and waste their time just to teach some twisted life lesson. If they ask, and they often do, we help.

Well if you stupid enough to start a project before it has hall the proper approvals...................Well what can ya say, ya got what ya deserved.

 

 

So what your saying is your SPL who has run the troop program for a number of months can't read the pamphlet and get it figured out.

I did not have an eagle coach or mentor or buddy when I did mine......I had a half a dozen paged ditto packet I followed.....When I had a question I went to the scoutmaster....

 

 

While this isn't PC or the soft warm and fuzzy they want the BSA to be...........Do away with them......or have a hand full of experts per district to answer the question....

 

 

We don't need someone chasing an Eagle along making sure he is making progress.

For the number of Eagle candidates I've seen just go ahead and do a project without going through the proper approval process, then get ticked because they have to do another project, or who messed up the complicated paperwork because they didn't read through things carefully enough, it seems to me having an adult look things over and explain the process is an important, if not mandatory part of becoming an Eagle Scout in 2013. Having someone in your troop with contacts at the council to sort out any paperwork snafus, who has read and worked with the material over and over and over again, and knows the best ways to navigate that horribly convoluted Eagle packet, is an invaluable thing for your scouts.

"Hard lessons" are great and all, but the "back in the day" Eagle process no longer exists. There's no need to throw teenagers to the wolves for paperwork, technicalities, and BSA "cover-our-ass" legalities.