mk9750

Bob,

Sorry it took so long to respond. Busy the last few days.

What part of OGE's reference:

"A merit badge counselor can counsel any Scout, including his own sonalthough this is discouraged in order to offer a Scout the chance to meet a diverse group of outstanding adults.

its permitted but discouraged. So, it is OK"

is not unclear?

But the more important issue:

It is sad that you chose to comment on that part of my post rather than the important part.

You certainly built up my spirit and helped me appreciate all you wisdom. Or not.

It is examples like that coming from you rather consistently that made me avoid posting since your return. Even when you are making a valid point, you are usually condescending. Thanks for reminding me why I will not participate any longer.

Thanks Bob.

Good luck to the rest of you.

Mark

I'd like to be able to say that the policy is clear, but apparently, there is at least a little confusion.

But as for opinions about the merit of the practice, now THOSE will vary widely. I have mine, too. All of them have value. But here is mine.

Our Scoutmaster has a fantastic system and method for doing the the three Citizenship badges. They are interesting, VERY informative, and guys all say they get a lot out of all of them. The SM's son is well past 18, but when he was in the Troop, we discussed the pros and cons of our SM counseling his son. It was the opinion of EVERY SINGLE ADULT involved with our Troop that it would be wrong to deny this Scout the benefit of such a great counselor.

All the adults in our Troop seem to feel the same way about the way I counsel Personal Management. And when it was time for my sons to do PM, it was a no brainer they were going to do it with me. My younger son took almost a year to complete the badge because he wasn't accepting the half a$$ed work he was trying to pass of whe doing his "To Do" list and schedule. No one coluld believe that it took MY SON so long to complete the badge. The was no appearance of impropriety.

On the other hand, I also counsel Communications and Family Life. I do a pretty good job with the Family Life, and my older son did that one with me, the younger son I sent to someone else. As for Communications, I feel there is nothing special I can provide. So I sent both of my sons to other Counselors.

Every Scout is entitled the best experience he can get. If that is with his father (or mother!!!), then not only should it be permitted, but it should almost be required.

All in my VERY Humble oppinion!

Good luck to you, and welcome to the forums!!!

Mark

Here is where I see an obstacle to nirvana on this issue:

Because there is no standard for how Patrols are formed, even if an intact Patrol were to attend a Camporee or Klondike, it could be a New Scout Patrol, a regular Patrol, a Venture Patrol, or a mixed age Patrol. Setting up competitions and hoping that everything will sort itself to make the competition fair is next to impossible.

When it was our Troop's opportunity to lead the Klondike, we set the competitions up for 1st Class and under, and Star and over. For a Troop to arrange a group of guys under that format makes it very difficult to also promote real PAtrol Method.

However, I believe your point is a good one. Perhaps it could be arranged so that only those with the same Patrol patch on their sleeve can participate as a Patrol. Then, if a Patrol of brand new Scouts shows up, a handicap could be applied.

I'm not so sure there is a good answer for this, at least not in the "real world".

Tough issue.

Mark

John in KC,

If they add Cooking to the Eagle Required list, I hope the use it to replace Communications. I am a MB Counselor for Communications. They took a mederately valuable MB and did away with most of the worthwhile requirements.

I have been considering notifying our Disctrict Advancement Chair that I no longer wish to counsel Communications. I don't mind wasting my time so much. I figure it's an opportunity to get to know a Scout better. But I hate that I am wasting the Scout's time.

Mark

I believe Goldwinger is right.

Troops and Packs are not groups of themself. They exist only as an arm of their Charter Organization. As such, they assume the tax treatment status of the Charter Organization. If they are tax exempt, so is the Boy Scout Pack or Troop, and the Charter Org. should be able to provide your unit with a tax exempt certificate.

In our Council, the Council has announced that they cannot extend it's tax exempt status to individual units. I believe this is because although the BSA owns the program, the Charter Org. owns the unit.

Mark

One Hour,

I truly feel your pain! I find myself in a similiar low spot right now. I don't want to get too specific, but I have been quite despondent the last few weeks. My wife has even STRONGLY recomended I take a sabbatical from Scouting for a while.

The problem is that even though something comes around every once in a while that makes me question why I am in Scouting, the vast majority of the time, I feel lucky to be here. I consistently get far more out of Scouting than I have even thought about putting into it.

My dad was one of those guys who had a cliche for almost everything. As I have gone through the last few weeks, I keep hearing my dad's voice echoing "Tough times never last. Tough people do."

One Hour, take your break if you need. I might just take my wife's "advice" and do the same for a while. But maybe I won't. Whether I do or not, I know that things will brighten, and in a few weeks or a few months, there will be a little guy whose uniform is way too big, his ears will be a little dirty, but his smile will only be matched by his heart, and I will be back to getting way more from Scouting than I will start giving again.

Good luck to you!

Mark

I also believe there is a strong recomendation NOT to wear the BSA uniform on overseas trips.

Mark

Perhaps we are fortunate in our district, but if a Cub Leader in our District were to call the District Training chair here, and could get at least a couple people from the Pack to go through the training together, he would set up a Saturday or Sunday session in your home on short notice.

I've witnessed him doing this before, and his only real requirement is that you put enough people through the training so that not having a BALOO trained adult cannot be an issue for your Pack in the next few of years.

If you are going to the Buffalo Naval Shipyards, your Cubs are in for a treat. I did this trip three times in my 7 years as a Cub Leader. It is a wonderful time. If so, let me offer one other suggestion. the timing of arrival at the ship (@ 4:00 Saturday, and departure @ 10:00 Sunday, if I remember right) lends itself to a side trip to sight see at the falls. If so, most people agree that the Canadian side of the falls is the better trip. If you are doing that, make sure that you don't cause yourself a hassle at the border. Make sure every Scout has a permission slip signed by the parent who is NOT with you giving permission to take the boy across the border.

Good luck and have fun!

Mark

I can provide these statistics for our Troop. This would be a very small sample, and would likely differ from other Troops with a different mix of Program and Scouts. But these stats are accurate for our Troop.

Since 1997, we have had 21 Eagle Scouts. Zero have been 15 or below. 1 has been 16 at the time of his BoR. 4 have been 17 at BoR. The rest, 16 Scouts had already turned 18 when their Bor was held.

Mark

As the original poster, it was three adult males at a roundtable wearing hats indoors that caused me to comment about any male wearing any hat anywhere indoors.

Mark

cad-guy,

I know that Family Life and Personal Managment both have requirments that take 3 months to complete (techically, Personal Management's requirement is 13 weeks).

Family life is a tremendous MB for a 12 - 13 - 14 year old Scout to work on, in my opinion. It is right about this time that young men begin to have a sense that their world extends beyond themselves, and helping a Scout begin to grasp this by beginning with a deeper understanding of his family is a great thing.

I know I will get flak for this (I have in the past), but I am a real believer that there is far more value to be gained by doing Personal Management as a 16 or 17 year old than as a 13 year old (in the vast majority of cases). Especially if the boy has a part time job. The requirment that takes 13 weeks is for the Scout to write a budget and track his results for 13 weeks. This is far more effective when planning how to meet a goal that includes the income from a part time job versus the weekly allowance that most younger guys would be limited to. Once in a while, I've come across a Scout who has been mowing lawns or working at a family business at a younger age, but more often than not, young Scouts miss the point of setting a goal, making a plan to meet the goal, monitoring the results, and adjusting on the fly in order to meet the goal that was set, which is the value of making the budget in the first place.

If you are guiding your son, please consider encouraging him to do Family Life in the near future, and discourage him from working on Personal Managment until he has a part time job. I sincerely believe he will benefit from that advice.

Ed,

Kind of thought that it was just a brain cramp.

Mark

For better or worse, I can remember this scene as well as I can remember my wedding:

I was about 13 years old. My father and I went to the bus station downtown to pick up my grandmother, who had taken the bus to go back to her hometown. When we got there, about half the terminal was full. We had the wrong time for the bus arrival, so we ended up sitting in the terminal for about 3 hours waiting. While we were there, the terminal filled up. As it got more and more full, I could feel my dad's eyes as if they were piercing me, but I had no idea what his problem was. This lasted for 10 minutes or so, until my father grabbed me by my ear lobe, and pulled me across the terminal into the men's room. He pushed me into a stall and with the meanest voice I ever heard come out of him told me that he was absolutely ashamed of the job he did as a father. How could a son of his be so rude and inconsiderate to all of the ladies who were standing while I was sitting? Did I not understand that the ONLY polite thing to do was for a man to give up his seat for a lady? And that it didn't matter that it was a black lady, I was still expected to do the polite thing? (My did was a terrific man. But he did have a backward mentality when it came to racial issues. I apologize for him). He dragged me back out of the rest room, made me apologize to the lady (who was now sitting), and told me that if he ever had reason to think I was so impolite again, he'd have to reconsider being my father. It is now 35 years later. I can ASSURE you, that since then, there has never been even one instance when I did not offer my chair to a lady or an elderly gentleman. And I am proud that my father gave me those kinds of manners.

If there is a humorous part of the story, it is this. This would have happened within 8 - 10 years of Rosa Parks' bus incident. I must never have seen a picture of Rosa Parks up to that point, but in my mind, Rosa Parks still looks like that lady in the bus station. Whenever they talk about Rosa Parks on the news, it is that lady's face in the bus station I see. And when it happens, I kind of look up to the sky and thank my dad for his lessons.

Mark

Ed,

Do I understand you correctly?

If I do, there is something amiss. As I read your answer, if a Scout were to earn First Aid when he is 2nd class, he would need to earn it again after he became a 1st Class Scout.

I've never understood the advancement process to work that way. Do I have the process wrong, or do I misunderstand your answer?

Mark

Oh my!

I didn't mean to start a religous war!

What I have learned though, from these responses, is that it is possible that what I thought was a UNIVERSAL rule with very NARROW exceptions may not have been that universal after all.

Beavah is right, there are certainly times at which certain clergy were miters and skull caps (I could be wrong, but I don't believe they would be refered to as yulmalkes in the Catholic church). And I am sure there are other times and in other situations where wearing head cover in indoors was not only acceptable, but required.

But I was brought up to believe that a man wearing any type of head cover indoors was an obvious sign of bad manners - Much the same as not opening a door for anyone (especially a lady), not standing when someone else entered a room (especially a lady), not offering your seat to someone else (especially a lady and an elder). And I was brought up to believe it wouldn't matter where in the country you went - these expectations would apply anywhere.

OK, I admit I don't remember my dad or any of my teachers specifically SAYING that these were universal rules, but that was what I came to accept. And most others in our Troop, and in my circle of friends, seem to have the same understanding.

A few folks mentioned that the traditions of the location (in this case, and LDS church) should be observed. And that certainly makes sense. However, it seems unlikely that a church like the LDS, that has some fairly strict traditions, would prefer that no hats be worn (I assume that the rule that we not have carbonated beverages inside the building is another such tradition).

OGE suggests the course of action I believed was best "Someone should have told the gentlemen to take off their hats" (at least until I read some of the replies). It is what I wished I had the courage to do. However, it might be possible that by doing so I might be as offensive to someone else as them wearing their hat indoors seems to me.

Now I'm REALLY confused!

Mark

Our roundtable, which is usually held at an LDS church in their gym, had to be moved to the worship area because of a scheduling conflict. Last night, while we were all sitting in the pews, I noticed three different male Scout leaders with hats on. One was a bush style hat, the other two were ball caps (one was a BSA themed hat, the other not).

First, what has happened to our society that men wearing hats indoors has beome acceptable? Second, even if it has, why would anyone continue to wear one inside a church? and third, how out of line would I be if I were to mention to these "gentlemen" that hats are inappropriate indoors, especially in a church?

I know a few will say that times have changed and such. My response to that will always be that manners do not change. What was proper 20 years ago is still proper today. Perhaps this may seem like a small issue to some, but it is a deterioration in acceptable behavior that has led to the downfall of many civilizations in history.

Even if I don't get an answers, thanks for letting me vent.

Mark

Ohio had plates for both Boy Scouts and Eagle Scouts. I just got the notice that my Boy Scout plates will no longer continue in the program, as they have not met the minimum demand. My 2 sons' Eagle plates have not been pulled yet.

Man, I gotta get to Oklahoma and start tailgating some folks to find EagleDad!

Mark

At an Eagle BoR a few years back, in which the District Advancement Chair (DAC) was late:

DAC - If you could add a 13th Point to the Scout Law, what would it be?

Eagle Candidate - Punctual!

The Eagle candidate looked as if he was trying to pull the word out of mid air and put it back into his mouth for a second or two. No one laughed until the the DAC started to, then we could hardly finish the Review.

Mark

Wingnut,

You make an excellent point, and this is an area I fail at as the advancement chair in our unit. I speak regularly with each Scout about his advancement, and for the "lower" ranks, I review their books almost as often. But I do not schedule BoRs for non advancement reasons. It doesn't seem to be necesary to me, but if I am serious about the Adult Association question, perhaps I should be more diilegent.

Let me throw out a hypothetical situation. What would everyone's opinion be about an added requirement (in the actual requirements, not made up by a SM or Troop Committee) that required active participation in the Troop and Patrol for (X) months since your last BoR, similar to the "higher" ranks. Would people find this too taxing or unfair? I am not suggesting it would be a good idea. I don'tknow. I'm just curious what others might think.

Bob,

Your point is well taken. However, the Scout's advancement plan might not coincide with the Troop's. I have seen two boys earn 1st class in well less than a year, even though our program provides opportunities for a Scout to work on every requirement over the course of a Scout's first 16 months (except the drug awareness program and meeting with an elected official). We've often had boys who are intersted in first aid, for instance, complete all first aid requirements before we have even dealt with first aid. More often, a Scout seems to clump requirements together when he feels he has fallen behind his buddies and wants to catch up. In either case, the Scout's plan for advancement (or lack of) doesn't match the plan the PLC has developed, and could lead to a Scout ready for multiple ranks at or near the same time.

Mark

First, please understand that I, too, agree that under the current make up of the requirments, it is wrong to hold a Scout back based on artificial time frames determined by a Troop Committee (or SM, for that matter). In our Troop, we have had 3 or 4 instances in the last 12 years of this happening, and we simply do one BoR for both ranks.

However, there is a dichotomy between the idea that we not require Scouts to experience seperate BoRs for each rank, and the desire of the program to provide opportunities for Adult Association. Every chance a Scout gets to demonstrate his abilities, to learn from a mentor, to absorb anything a caring adult is willing to share, is valuable. As I think about it, do we do a disseverice to our Scouts by NOT requiring them to experience seperate Boards of Review?

Mark

First, I too want to welcome you.

Second, you have received some very good advice here from all. There is not one comment here with which I can find fault.

Third, Congratulations to your son. He has acheived a high honor. Doing so with extra obstacles only makes the achievement sweeter.

Fourth, I too want to comment on the SM attending. We found the same problem others found - If Scouts were involved helping the Eagle Candidate, they often turned to one of the uniformed leaders, or slightly better, the SPL, for guidance and direction. So we generally have avoided attending Eagle Service projects.

We also have begun counseling Eagle candidates that their project should be approached like any project - A school project, or one for work. A goal is identified. A plan is developed to meet the goal. It is this plan that should be described in the workbook. The plan should identify all of the resources expected to be needed - Labor, including specific skills, materials, time, money, work space, and tools. The plan should address how each of these resources will be obtained and utilized. One of the major issues we have been attempting to quell is the tendency for the guys in our Troop to make broadcast invitations for help for their project. We are attempting to get guys to identify in their plan that they need, for example, 7 Scouts for 6 hours, plus 3 adults who can lift heavier objects than the Scouts, and Mr. Jones, who knows how to cut bird's mouths into rafters. And then have the Eagle Candidate approach the specific people he has identified as a needed resource. We feel that this is a far better demonstration of leadership than simply announcing at circle up at the end of the meeting "Hey guys, my Eagle project is this Saturday, and if you want pizza, show up".

In trying to steer our guys in this direction, we find that it is unusual (not rare, but unusual) to have an Eagle candidate plan to need our SM as a resource. Same with me (anything that requires construction, a Scout would be far better off WITHOUT me there!).

We have been steering guys in this direction for close to two years now. That includes a slew of 8 Eagles in 2007. That was an big abheration, definately not the norm. All these guys crossed over together, and did a great job supporting each other throughout their Scout careers.

This results in a preparation effort that is much more detailed, but a better effort at demonstrating leadership. And each Scout who has used this method has given positive feedback about the life lessons he has learned during the process.

Again EO2, welcome and congratulations. If your son's SM didn't live up to his end of the bargain with your son, I am sorry. But the adversity probably beneifitted your son in the long run.

Mark

This is a great question!

I have been trying for probably 6 years now to convince our guys to give this a try. I have been trying to get our older Patrol to put together a plan to review it with the SM to see if they can get his approval. Every time we get the guys talking about it, they seem excited. The excitement peters out by the time they get back together again the next week. I've always suspected that they discuss it with parents, and the parents say no. But the guys say they didn't talk to their parents about it, and no parent has mentioned they heard the guys were trying to do this. I now suspect that the guys just don't believe their parents would give them permission.

I am not the SM either. But were I, and had a group of older guys (I think majority 16+), with a SOLID plan that included very little down time, at a location they were very familiar with, I believe this would be an extremely valuable teaching opportunity. I also like Lisa's comment about that one Scout. And here I thought only OUR Troop had one of those!

I base my enthusiasm on two things. First, when I was a boy around 12 - 15 years old, in the late 60's and early 70's, it was not unusual for a group of guys I hung around with to grab a sleeping bag, a few snacks and a buck or two, tell our parents we'd be home the next day, and ride our bikes down to the local pond for the night. We'd wander over to the pharmacy nearby and buy some candy. Our best fun was when we started bringing a transistor radio. About noon the next day, we'd get hungry enough to ride home and raid someone's refrigerator. I KNOW that the vast majority of guys in our Troop now are WAY more caple of being on their own then we were back then.

Second, we've let the older Patrol set up in the next campsite over and had no contact with them for the weekend. The only difference between that and letting them go on their own completely is the safety net adults a few hundred yards over provide. After hearing what they have done with their "almost" freedom, I have no qualms at all to let our older guys do this. I wish they would.

Mark

I wonder whether our Troop would be considered "rogue".

"have had poor experiences with commissioners." - Well, we've had three or four UC's assigned to us over the last 13 years. One time one of them came to a Court of Honor (they get invitations to ALL of our CoHs and such). He showed up in a rumpled up uniform shirt and jeans. He looked sheepish when he saw all of our guys in full uniforms. We haven't seen a UC since. Once in a while we get a ADC to an Eagle CoH.

"They don't use the council summer camp but instead go out of council." - In 1991, before I was with the Troop, we went to the Council summer camp (had gone every other year since our inception in 1958). Program was horible, as I hear the story told, swimming and riflery areas were actually dangerous, and the milk was chunky. We found a different summer camp (In Eamonn's and Ed's Council, I think), and have gone there every other year since. It's not that we wouldn't go back to our home council's camp. But we like where we are at.

"They don't sell popcorn." - We were the 2nd highest Troop, and 5th highest unit in our district. We could do better, I think. But we sell popcorn.

"They don't attend camporees." Our Troop started camporees back up after a 4 or 5 year hiatus.

"When asked, they complain about the quality of council service." - Like service anywhere else, service from Council is very poor. But that, unfortunately, is the theme of our era, I think. Find me any entity that services well, and I'll show you an entity with almost uniformly happy customers.

Are we rogue? From above, maybe we are half rogue.

Judging from our reputation? I'd have to say the same thing. We have other Troops who seem to dispise us because we do a lot of high venture stuff, and keep boys until they turn 18. Our SM rubs some folks the wrong way within the district. But all in all, I think we are respected.

Mark

If one Scout's experience can shed light on your situation, let me opine:

Back when I was a Lion Cub Scout, it was traditional, at least in our area, for a boy to cross to a Troop at the Pack meeting right after his 11th birthday. I remember how proud I was when my new Scoutmaster handed me my Troop neckerchief, and told me sadly that the next campout was Klondike, and being new, I wouldn't have the experience or the equipment to go. He told me that if my parents agreed, and if I already had my winter sleeping bag, insulated boots, etc., he would let me go. But only with my parents permission.

Nothing was going to stop me from going on my first campout. The coolest guy in our school was in the Troop, and I wanted to be just like him. So I convinced my mom and dad that I was ready for the campout. I think I even told them one of my buddies was going to lend me good gear (this wasn't quite truthful).

Friday night, the temperature was -9. Saturday, the high was -5. Saturday night, the low was -12. Mark's rubber boots over his tennis shoes, with cotton tube socks (I remember to this day they had blue stripes at the top), weren't enough to prevent frostbite on the two small toes on my right foot, and the one smallest toe on my left foot. I came home, and my mom had to take me to the doctor. On the way home, I was told how there "is no way in hell you are going back to Scouts! If that damn leader of yours isn't smart enough to bring you guys home, there's no way you are ever going to see a campout again!"

My Scouting career lasted all of three weeks. Why? Because I was too enthusiatic (and not Trustworthy enough), my parents too trusting, and my SM not firm enough to stick by his original decision. I have regretted not continueing in Boy Scouts since I was 11 years old, and especially since I have become active as an adult.

As for what option I would select if I were in your shoes, I also like option 2, with the caveat that parents accompany there son. Anyone can survive a day outside in the cold, and if the weather or the manner a boy (or his parents) dress prevents that, the option of leaving remains open.

Our Troop does everything short of forcing our new Scouts to go on their first Klondike. But our guys don't cross until April and sometimes May. We have months to get Scouts up to speed on how to prepare for cold weather camping. "surviving" their first Klondike is like a right of passage in our Troop. But I can't imagine ever trying to ask a brand spanking new Scout to come on a Klondike with us.

Mark

In our Troop, if the Scout planning the Coh (regular, not Eagle) doesn't remember to request that the SM or another adult prepare some remarks, it is entirely likely you would not hear one word from an adult through the entire hour and a half.

Most often our CoHs include a few words from the SM, but that is it. The uniformed adults do sit in the front, and it isn't all that uncommon for the SM to lean over to the em cee and remind him to do this or recognize someone for something, but for the most part, the adults are mum.

For Eagle CoHs, the planning is done by the family and the SM together and equally. The family (actually the Eagle) chooses the em cee, and the biggest role the SM has in planning the CoH is he takes the responsiblity to make sure everything is coming together properly.

I believe someone here once said that BP's vision was that an adult not do anything that boys can do for themselves. I'd like to think that this meant without harm. Ask a boy to plan and execute a CoH, what's the worst that can happen? Nothing that can't be fixed. Let an adult plan and execute it, what's the harm? Emmense, INVHO.

Great weekend, all!

Mark

Beav,

What a wonderful job voicing the frustration I think a lot of SMs (and many other volunteers) sometimes have about our program!

I will always remember a day many years ago, not too long after my son and I crossed over to Boy Scouts. I had to stop by the SM's house before a Troop meeting. I got there about an hour and 15 minutes before the meeting start time. I was trying to discuss an issue with him, but he literally took 9 - 10 phone calls from the SPL, a few other Scouts, and a host of parents. My conversation with him should have lasted 15 minutes at most, but it took a full hour. I left his house, drove the 15 minutes to the meeting site, and made it just in time for the flag ceremony.

When I left the SM's house, he still needed to put his uniform on. Between that and one more phone call from a parent, the SM walked into the meeting about 5 minutes late.

At the next adult committee meeting, about a week later, three parents presented the CC with a formal, written request to reprimand the SM for being a bad example by be late to the meeting. No, I'm not kidding. They wanted a formal, written reprimand!

Now I'm a pretty big fan of being on time. But I witnessed a SM dealing with the demands of his position BEFORE A MEETING STARTED, and then got criticized because those demands caused him to be late. Never again was I going to criticize this guy for being late.

Within a few weeks of that incident, I recall being at the SM's house until almost 2:00 in the morning preparing to leave for summer camp. We were there because all of the Scouts who had responsiblity to prepare to leave - the SPL, the Patrol Leaders, the Patrol cooks - all were taken home by their parents before the work was done because they had to get up to be ready to go so early in the morning. Never mind that the guys who were going to be DRIVING their precious cargo were going to have to finish up the work that night and then get up early and make the 9 hour drive to summer camp. But all we got was grief the next morning because we were less than chipper as parents wanted last minute information and to provide those last little golden nuggets of wisdom about how to deal with their son.

I wish I could take credit for coming up with this line, but alas, it was not me. However, I have become fond of reminding people that "no good deed goes unpunished." Yes, it is sad that the SM didn't make a big deal about the new Eagle Scout. In hind sight, I am sure he wished he had. But I am sure this doesn't represent the warm feelings and sense of pride the SM has for this Scout. Perhaps if we tried to imagine what it must be to "walk a mile in the SM's mocasins", we'd all have a bit more tolerance when he doesn't quite live up to the Normal Rockwell imagine of the perfect Scoutmaster.

Mark