ManyIrons

Howdy All,

Long time, no type. Our lodge is merging with another later this year and we're in the process of drafting a special closing ceremony. We're looking for ideas or scripts from similar ceremonies. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks!

WWW

Chewli Sukachsin

Since they're alternate spellings for each other I'd guess it's due to the preference of the author.

What I'm wondering about is why one lodge in PA apparently requires candidates to be at least 13. Oh well I guess they kind of make up for it by only requiring 14 nights of camping instead of 15.

I said the "need" for sheath knives would be an item to address.

As for no prohibition against sheath knives, well that depends where you are. They are specifically prohibited at the half-dozen different BSA summer camps I've attended, and they wouldn't be permitted on school property.

Even the Guide to Safe Scouting says: "Avoid large sheath knives . . ." Granted the discussion there concerns the use of them in a camping environment.

Kahits, just "know" before you "go" to avoid any problems.

Just another datapoint and to piggyback on what BrotherhoodWWW said, the latest update to the OA Field Operations Guide says "The Boy Scouts of America policy regarding weapons will be followed." See http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/FOG-2008.pdf

Note: the cited quotation deals specifically with the various competitions at Conclave/NOAC, but the G2SS quote would apply everywhere.

That appears to cover the issue of firearms, the other item to address is the need for sheath knives.

Interesting.

On one hand, it could help bust the "good ol' boy/gal" rings that the new course rules were supposed to eliminate (it didn't in my council). Although it may also give them control of NYLT (scoutldr's concern). They essentially already do so in my council so no change there for Moi.

On the other hand it really seems to dilute the meaning of the 3rd bead. At the moment I'd have to agree with dan and lean toward a separate recognition; however, I don't thing I'd prefer to see it on the thong.

Tindeuchen,

Depending on your exact location in NW Ohio, you may be in the traditional lands of the Miami Indians. The nearest group of Miami to you would be in Indiana (http://www.miamiindians.org/), although the federally recognized Miami Nation is located in Oklahoma (http://www.miamination.com/).

As ASM915 mentioned, the Eiteljorg Museum may be an excellent source for you. They have a gallery titled Mihtohseenionki (Miami for The Peoples Place). If you cant visit they do have some on-line materials at http://www.eiteljorg.org/ejm_Education/JustForTeachers/details.asp?id=116.

Another potential resource is the Myaamia Project (http://www.myaamiaproject.com/) sponsored by Miami University.

Hope this helps. I live in Illinois and also wish our lodge would adopt an Eastern Woodlands theme for the ceremonies teams. However, the youth (and too many adults) are more attracted to the Hollywood/Plains Indian stereotypes.

scoutmom2,

Assistant Scoutmasters (nor the SM for that matter) are members of the troop committee. If your committee needs proof have them review a copy of the Troop Committee Guidebook. In my copy, Chapter 4 outlines all the positions of the committee and does not include Scoutmasters -- assistant or otherwise.

And for the record, Scoutmasters and assistants are not supposed to hold a committee position in addition to their other responsibilities.

Hope this helps.

Hops,

Yeah, I wasn't looking to do a Joy vs Sunnen thing either. My point was that a lot of it comes down to perception and I wish more troops would articulate their likes and dislikes to the council camping committee. Of course if you're doing that and not getting satisfaction you have every right to vote with your feet.

Also, I don't think you can define a unit's support of the council by any one activity. You really have to look at it from a wider perspective and understand that there isn't really a one-size-fits-all way to define it. Each unit may be providing a lot of support, but in different ways.

Deliver a quality program to your Scouts and follow your conscience on the rest.

All,

Here's a link to 500 additional photos from the jamboree: http://www.tsa.thirdlight.com/libraryhome.tlx

Once the page opens, follow the link at the bottom for "Latest pictures . . . "

kb6jra I sent you a PM. I spotted a Venture Crew member who is definitely from the Western Region. If you download the photo and zoom in you can read their name tag.(This message has been edited by ManyIrons)

You're welcome kb6jra.

Ditto on "wish I were there". It was only 4K from Illinois, but 8K total was waaaaay too rich for my blood. That and having all the adult slots full made it an easy decision for me

We haven't heard from our Scout and probably won't. I told him he spent too much money to be wasting time on line for a phone or email. Mrs. ManyIrons feels differently but also wants him to get maximum fun out of this.

Ditto also on the lack of photo evidence of his attendance over there. The odds are obviously against us, but I swear every photo we have of him since he was born has him staring right at the camera -- even in the group candid shots. The boy is a camera hound, but may have met his match. Good luck in your quest.

P.S. The name refers to the "many irons" I have in the "fire". It's only "many" because I add 'em faster than I ever get 'em out!

Hops,

Long Time - No Type. Since we're in the same council I feel a need to chime in here. First let me say that I support any troops right to attend whatever summer camp they choose. However, I dont think youve been completely fair in your observations of Camp Joy. A couple of points:

1. How was the option to attend an out of council camp presented? I only ask because a former Scoutmaster of our troop used to give the Scouts a choice between A or B and then touted it as the Scouts choice. Im not saying anything sinister happened in your troop, just asking how you arrived at your choice.

2. If you haven't been to Joy in 3 years how doyou know things are so bad? I suppose you could have received feedback from someone who attended, but realistically thats just someone elses opinion, and thats where the fairness issue comes in for me.

Before I give my observations of Joy let me answer my own questions:

(1) How we Choose Summer Camp. I give my Scouts information (cost, merit badges, additional programs, distance, etc) for Camp Joy and roughly 4 to 6 other camps within a few hours drive. I then ask each Scout to vote where he would like to attend.

(2) What do I base my observations on? I have been at Joy for 2 of the past 3 years. I couldnt attend with the troop in 2006, but spent most of the evenings there with them. Over the past 10 years Ive been to 5 different summer camps including Sunnen. Each had things that impressed me and each had things I definitely did not care for. However, I dont choose the camp and I keep any personal negative attitude in check.

Now for Camp Joy:

- Staff. Not the worst, but certainly not the best. Honestly I think this is directly proportional to the quality of the Camp and Program Directors. Weve had challenges with that aspect for the past 2 years at least and could use some improvement all around. Not sure what you mean by constant changes. Year to year, or week to week? I havent seen this or had any other problems with staff. The year we were at Sunnen there were a lot of adults teaching the merit badge classes. Not sure where I really stand on that practice.

- Food. Nothing Ive seen in the past 3 years could be described as downright horrible. Okay, I wont cry if they quit serving fish on Wed night, but none of the Scouts have complained about the food. That may be due to an overindulgence in Choco-Tacos in the trading post, but thats nothing new. The dining hall at Joy is a definite drawback, its just too small and too hot. Theyve mitigated this somewhat by having troops eat lunch in their campsites. A new dining hall is on the horizon. I spoke with the Scout Exec who told me they were in negotiations with two companies and hoped to have a contract in the near future. Sunnen uses an open air pavilion (so does Camp Bunn in Hettick IL). Its vastly more comfortable.

- Waterfront. Its a somewhat small, rural pond and comes with all the bells and whistles of such, but no slime or algae. The worst Ive seen it in 3 years was during the last week of camp this year after 5 days of torrential rain the week before and several 90+ degree days. Even then it was just the lake overturning which is natural. When we attended Sunnen, swimming was relegated to the small pond, which if you saw what it looks like in April and May, you might not get in it during June -- even if youre not afraid of the dreaded Nipple fish.

- Yup, shooting sports charges for ammo. Some camps charge, and some dont. I know Sunnen didnt in 2004 when we were there.

- Our COPE and Climbing programs are pretty good, but Im definitely biased because my son has been an instructor there for the past 2 years.

- Another positive you didnt mention was the new Trading Post. The floor space is probably close to 10 times the size of the old shack. Plus theres a new computer lab in the building and a game room downstairs.

Bottom line: if the local program just doesnt appeal to your Scouts please articulate exactly what it is you feel it lacks and use specific examples (dining hall too crowded and hot; counselors ill-prepared to instruct classes be sure to give names here; etc). The argument can be made that not attending the local camp is tantamount to not supporting the council. BUT, blindly attending a camp when the Scouts are not happy is not what the program is about. If your Scouts are making an informed decision then I support you guys.

As for me, Im still in the Try to fix things from within phase. I want my council camp to have a great program and will do what I can to get it there. I may fail, but I will try. If my Scouts choose to attend elsewhere in 2008 Ill communicate the reasons to the Camping Committee.

One final comment on the patrol method. Just because a camp uses a dining hall doesnt mean the patrol method isnt at work. There are still campsite duties that must be done and daily troop PLCs that must be attended. My Scouts tent and run the campsite by patrol. As for cooking, well we do that by patrol during the other 11 months. Its okay to take a week off every now and then ;-)

Ditto kb6jra!!

My son is also at the jamboree. According to the website (http://eng.thejamboree.org/) his sub-camp (Atoll) led the procession into the arena this morning for the sunrise ceremony. We haven't heard from him directly, but we're following it via troop emails and internet photos. It must be totally overwhelming, but I'm sure they are having the time of their lives. Can't wait to hear all about it!!

Here are a few links to some photos:

http://www.bsawsj2007.org/

http://picasaweb.google.com/temcdonough

I was very surprised also, but my first thought was that someone has taken advantage of Terry -- either by deception or by hack. I can't imagine any scenario where Terry would knowingly accept this type of advertisement.

There's was one at the top of this page when I checked the thread -- I won't mention the address in case it's random. OGE, I'm sending you the info via PM.

emb021,

I didnt say a program unique to each camp I said tailored. I can only speculate on why the Mic-O-Say template is used so often -- and that would be due to their demonstrated ability to bring campers back to summer camp, particularly the older Scouts.

emb021,

Its unfortunate that your exposure to non-OA groups (exactly how many have you approached?) were negative. My experience with the Tribe of Mannaseh was exactly the opposite. As a non-member I asked many questions and all were answered to my satisfaction. This was done over a period of several months via face-to-face discussions or email with at least 5 different members. I'd take John-in-KC up on his offer if you're looking for information.

My point about many troops not being boy-run was a tongue-in-cheek observation that if BSA were to become concerned about stamping out the heavy hand of adults they should start with Scouting program instead of worrying about individual summer camp honor societies.

As for the who said what. I never said you said anything. But you made two allegations that you cannot substantiate and as such would not be grounds for ending the existence of non-OA camp honor societies.

A couple of interesting historical things to note:

1. OA was not originally developed as a boy-led organization. It wasn't until at least 1955 that lodges were advised that adults should only have an advisory role, not leadership positions. I can't answer for Mic-O-Say (again talk with John-in-KC), but I've been told by members of the Mannaseh tribal council that role of the youth will expand over time. The program was only instituted here in 2001.

2. There was a movement in the BSA during the early 1920's that "camp fraternities be discouraged". That movement failed, but the Chief Scout Executive at the time (James West) advised the founders of the OA not to "push the expansion". It wasn't until 1934, that the national council formally approved of the OA and the complete integration of the order into BSA didn't begin until 1948.

As to the original purpose of this thread: If and when national implements a policy toward local camp societies it can be dealt with then. For now, I'll just wait and see.

Each camp is different, so it's not surprising that each camp would want a program tailored to them. The original purpose of any camp honor society was to entice Scouts to return to that camp each year. If the same program is available at multiple camps it defeats the purpose.

First let me correct my original statement: "From my knowledge of Mic-O-Say and experience with Mannaseh . . .". I am not a member of Mic-O-Say, but I am an adult warrior in Mannaseh.

As to the alleged "problems"

"* they are secret groups". No more so than OA, which of course is not a secret group either.

"* they are too adult-run ". That's a common criticism I've heard about both programs -- and a common observation of many troops.

Neither of those observations are grounds for ending local honor groups.

From my experience with Mic-O-Say and Mannaseh they'd compare very favorably with OA for "membership, leadership, and organization."

Agree with the group -- too vague. "Wait and see" is a good position to take.

Gee emb021, you make it sound so tawdry

The Tribe of Mannaseh was formed by members of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say who are now part of the Okaw Valley council. There are many variants of Mic-O-Say. Here's a link: http://www.flyingember.com/mic.html

In Friendship and Warmth,

Many Irons

"Scouting with the 'right boys' is easy, the others are the ones we are here for.

Excellent point Red Feather.

Here's a similar thought from an old Scoutmaster Handbook:

"We Build on What We Find. It is upon what the boy brings to us, what he is and what he wants, that we must build what we hope him to be -- what he in his heart of hearts wants to be."

The easy ones make me feel proud, the others make me feel even prouder.

It's hard to understand what actually happened in this case, but it sure doesn't smell right.

B.E., Here's a link with some valuable information for you:

http://www.scouting.org/hr/index.html

Best of luck.

M.I.

I checked my son's copy of the 10th edition, and it doesn't have a requirement to discuss when/when not to use lashings. The introductory text is virtually identical to the current edition -- along with the admonition about obtaining permission before building structures.

The only mention I see of safety is a small text box labelled "Triangle Principle In Lashings" which advises the user to incorporate triangles into their designs to ensure the lashing projects are "safe and steady".

In my copy of the handbook (11th ed., 5th printing) the answer is on the bottom of pg 137:

"Obtain permission before building camp gadgets or other structures -- they are prohibited in many backcountry areas as a way of encouraging no-trace camping.

Therefore, lashings should not be used in areas where they are not permitted (which probably qualifies this as a candidate for the "Vague but True" Hall of Fame).

Don't feel bad, this one drove me to distraction for a while too.

NWScouter,

Wrong.

Processing paperwork competently and on time is core requirement of the council. They were doing that decades before FOS and popcorn came into being. The argument that without the money from those programs there wouldnt be people to do those things is a glittering generality. In my council FOS and popcorn money comprises approx. 1/3 of the budget. Even with a complete collapse of that source of revenue, theres still plenty of money to get the paperwork processed. Certainly the loss of 1/3 of income would result in cutbacks but not to processing paper.

If people complain about cutbacks to activities and facilities then one can point to decreases in support, but the original intent of this thread was a discussion on how a council could have gone from a $291K profit to a $1M debt within 2 years. To imply that even some of the blame for this can be laid at the feet of units who do not participate in FOS or popcorn is absurd. Even with a $100K drop in FOS, the council had the responsibility to live within its means. Attempting to charge an additional fee and pointing the finger at FOS is shirking responsibility.

And please dont lecture me on my FOS contribution. I strongly support FOS in every way possible. Our FOS date has been scheduled for over a month now. I contribute generously every year, and our troop consistently meets its goal. Furthermore, Im a trained FOS presenter and will be out there making the pitch to help my council.