LongHaul

Unless I'm mistaken one should only wear an OA flap if one's current dues are paid in full.

LongHaul

Might be that I had just too much coffee today Beavah, and I know I try and play devils advocate a bit but this time I'm serious Scouts honor. This SM had to hire a personal attorney to act as a go between with the BSA attorneys. If the BSA covers the CO as well as the SM why are they coming down so hard on the SM? Yes the family, per their attorney's advice, is suing everyone they possibly can, even the Dad that drove the kid to the outing was originally named. The thing I'm having trouble understanding is the actions of the BSA attorney trying to prove negligence on the part of the SM to the degree that they want to know what training the man had and who trained him. I thought the BSA attorney was supposed to be on our side.

LongHaul

Ya Beavah but I thought that the BSA insurance covers you no matter what you do as long as you don't commit a crime. Why is this guy loosing time at work, having to hire a personal lawyer to deal with BSA layers that are tying to shift blame. Possibly to the CO and not the SM but can this guy really take that on faith? I had auto insurance for 20 years with the same company then I got rear ended and was injured. My insurance would not pay my medical bills, I had to sue and ended up with less than lost wages and medical bills. BSA's insurance isn't like that?

 LongHaul

I never got sued but there is a Scoutmaster on the south side of CAC that had a scout get killed on a troop ski outing. The lawyers went over every inch of this guys training, asked for copies of the YP video he was trained under, wanted copies of tour permits and statements as to how the boys were prepared for the event. They wanted everything they could think of. It's not a matter of the BSA insurance won't pay it's a matter of how liable are they. Level of Liability can be a costly thing while you are trying to get yours lowered.

LongHaul

Dutch Ovens are not expenditures they are investments in gastronomical delights.

LH

Common Sense lost out to Risk Management. Let a Cub turn around with a flaming marshmallow and leave a scare on another cubs face and see what happens to your BSA Insurance. You will learn a new phrase "Level of Liability" "We told you not to do this" "Baloo training should have told you not to do this." "Leader specific training should have told you not to do this" Talk to all the leaders you want, talk to all the lawyers you want, then talk to someone that had it happen on their watch. Follow all the training and "guidelines" to the letter and you're standing on concrete. Miss a step and rely on "common sense" and the ice gets really thin.

 All that said we had our final Pack campfire last week, just ahead of the cold weather. Hot dogs and somores were great. Popcorn in a paper bag tasted rather smoky. Zero insurance claims.

LongHaul

First off Meritbadge.com now links to meritbadge.org which is a wiki site which means anyone can edit the content. User beware. As I read msnowmans post it sounds like the SM said the hours could not be used for rank requirements for two different ranks.

As for Citizenship in the Community and the requirement in question; Bold print and highlights are mine.

7. Do the following:

a. Choose a charitable organization outside of Scouting that interests you and brings people in your community together to work for the good of your community.

b. Using a variety of resources (including newspapers, fliers and other literature, the Internet, volunteers, and employees of the organization), find out more about this organization.

c. With your counselor's and your parent's approval, contact the organization and find out what young people can do to help. While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization. After your volunteer experience is over, discuss what you have learned with your counselor.

7b. Would indicate to me that the intent here is that this be a charitable organization new to the scout as opposed to ones church.

7c. Definitely puts the service hours after counselor approval. This is seconded by the phrase While working on this merit badge.

If a boy came to me with a Blue Card dated 2004 without any requirements initialed indicating it was now a partial, I would not counsel him under the old requirements.

LongHaul

raisinemright, 

        The requirement to cook something outdoors is preceded by a list of cooking related tasks intended to be done with the Cub's family and not on a Pack outing. If you look at the age appropriate guidelines in the middle of the GTSS you will find under Outdoor Skills/Cooking that Tigers, Wolves and Bears are not approved for outdoor cooking. Personally I think some-mores and hot dogs on a stick are what some boys join Cub Scouts for but I don't get a vote on National policy.

JeffD,

       As an adult you can cook anyway you want so long as it is not a danger to the scouts. My comment was directed at the post which said D.O.s are not intended for cubs.

 LongHaul

JeffD's Baloo instructor should have mentioned that cooking in any form is not recommended for Cub Scout level boys. Cubs are not allowed to even roast marshmallows or cook hot dogs until they are Webelos I have several smaller DOs for 2 man breakfasts and making bread. Most of my ovens are 12 inch four to six inches deep. Start small and experiment. I recommend you stay away from acidic foods (tomato base) until your oven is well seasoned from use. Cardinal rule NO SOAP in CAST IRON. Aluminum works well but when using wood instead of charcoal you can melt an aluminum oven. LongHaul

DUTCH OVEN COOING SITES OF INTEREST http://papadutch.home.comcast.net/dutch-oven-recipes.htm

 GOOD SITE FOR THE BEGINNER HAS TIPS FOR DECIDING WHICH OVEN TO PURCHASE HOW TO CLEAN AND MAINTAIN YOUR DUTCH OVEN HOW TO RESTORE A RANCID OR RUSTY DUTCH OVEN

http://www.lovetheoutdoors.com/camping/Cooking_Methods.htm

 GENERAL OUTDOOR COOKING SITE HAS A DUTCH OVEN COOKING SECTION

 http://www.netwoods.com/d-cooking.html#methods

GOOD RECIPES AND TIPS

 http://www.dutchovencookware.com/dutch-oven-recipes.html

LODGE BRAND SITE HAS ITEM AND PRICE LIST TO GET AN IDEA OF COST GOOD RECIPES

http://www.three-peaks.net/cooking.htm#Equipment

SCROLL UP TO FOR LINKS TO MANY SITES

 http://www.outdoorcook.com/article1026.php

 SOME TIPS AND VIEWS ON DUTCH OVEN COOKING GOOD RECIPES

http://www.idos.com/

INTERNATIONAL DUTCH OVEN SOCIETY

Look for an OKPIK course in your area. Have your "bin there done that" guys take the OKPIK course then the can teach your Cold Weather Camping program.

LongHaul

      When making a motion picture you hire someone to deal with continuity. You want to be sure that when you cut scenes the color of a tie or scarf does not change. Hair was down, now it's up, now it's down sort of thing. I wish BSA would hire a continuity person for their publications. In looking at the ACPP #33088 I could find no reference to this issue. In looking at a Bear Handbook I find no "specific" reference to this issue. I did however find a passage toward the bottom of page 180 which reads "However, note that unused parts of achievements that were used for the Bear badge may not be counted toward Arrow Points. These requirements now follow the same rules as elective requirements. Each one is a separate project." Read literally this could be interpreted to mean that each "requirement" for Achievement #3 could be seen as a separate project. (Provided Achievement #3 was not used in earning the Bear badge) Under Electives looking at #17 Repairs it states that "Each time you do this differently, it counts as a completed project" Does that mean this policy holds true for all electives or does the fact that it is specifically stated in Elective 17 indicate that it is intended for this Elective specifically? I'm sure glad we don't have this confusion in the Boy Scout Advancements.

 LongHaul

>>End of story - Don't punish the boys for the adults who don't know what they are doing!<<

       I agree two separate parties two separate electives. I'm confused by the last line. Are you saying that an adult is doing something wrong? Is it in accordance with the advancement program for Cub Scouts for an electives to be done twice?

 LongHaul

If I'm not mistaken there are a few a Eagles on the board.  As for the Realtors license it was issued by National.

 LongHaul

In my council we don't need a tour permit as long as we are within our district. That means I don't need a tour permit to go camping at the local forest preserve youth camp. Nor do I need one to go to the Nature center or on a bike hike. If all we count is troop overnights and troop service projects what happens to the patrol method? If a patrol decides to get together and ride their bikes to the lake for a day in the sun why is that not equal to a patrol deciding to get together and ride their bikes to the nature center to work on any of the Nature/enviro Sci merit badges? The requirement specifically disqualifies troop and patrol meetings and no other requirement asks for an amount of troop or patrol meetings. We have discussed "active" and we have discussed "scout spirit" and attendance at troop meetings or "outings" isn't a requirement for either. My opinion is that the SM and SPL decide what the requirements mean and write their decisions down for future reference. I did this when I became SM and the original document has been amended once in 12 years, other than to include new requirements or actual changes in old requirements.

 LongHaul

     As Is said so many times concerning YP reporting WATCH YOUR LIABILITY. If the "witness" starts making allegations she can not prove in court she can get into a lot of trouble. Parents meeting? Bad move. Did these two actually admit to intimacy? Being in a persons tent for a matter of hours is not tenting together. Kids spend time in each others tents and we don't consider that tenting together. Was our witness watching the whole time? Does she have "notes" on when the offender entered, when he/she left? Notes on what was heard during the time the two were together? Who knows what really happened in that tent? Voyeurism?

       For a CO to take action based on what it may have looked like is totally within their prerogative. If you represent me and it even looks like your thinking about doing something wrong I can take issue with it because you represent me. Accusing you of wrong doing in public is a totally different matter. As for our witness I'd remind her that a scout is Courteous, Kind, Helpful, and above all does not slander another scout based on supposition.

LongHaul

Understand that I have no involvement with Venturing other than knowing some Venturers. I don't know their program well enough to even list the awards they may earn as some others have done. I don't know if the Venturing program addresses the material I think some Venturers might be interested in exploring. Where I see Venturers most is at our Summer camp. What comes to mind then is Rifle Shooting, Shotgun Shooting, Small Boat Sailing, Backpacking, Cooking, Camping, Lifesaving, BSA Lifeguard (Two of the people that signed my BSA Lifeguard application were female), Personal Management, the way I prefer to do it is definitely not Middle School level which is why I get called on the carpet. I really don't care either way if females are allowed to earn merit badges the question just caught me off guard. Being a YP trainer I have been "amused" by the evolution of the Age Guidelines for camping in the GTSS. At first Venturers were not mentioned, then they were only supposed to be involved in Crew, District, Council and National Jamborees. They added high adventure, and then (to the surprise of some) resident camps. This meant that any Venturer could camp with a troop at summer camp. This was changed to; those Venturers that were multiple registered with a Boy Scout troop, addressing the female issue. The current entry reads as follows; "All youth registered in Venturing are eligible to participate in crew, district, council, and national Venturing activities as well as national high-adventure programs and world jamborees." Very less specific allowing more "local" interpretation. LongHaul

Beavah,

        Are you sure there would be no way to enter them into scoutnet? A Venturer that had attained the rank of First Class could earn merit badges so that means that an advancement report from a Venturing Crew that contained a merit badge advancement for that scout would indeed be accepted. Are we sure that an advancement report from a crew containing a merit badge for a boy that had not already attained First Class would be rejected by scoutnet?

 LongHaul

Got to thinking after I posted last night that in Ventureing we have Awards and not actually ranks. I still wonder about having to ask to see a boys handbook before working with him to make sure he is First Class.

LH

Gold Winger,

    By that reasoning any merit badge earned by a scout that did not eventually attain the rank of Eagle Scout dose not count for anything?  Earning a merit badge is not supposed to be just about rank advancement it's supposed to be about personal growth.

meamemg,

       First I would like to know the link to access the Advancement Committee Policies and Proceedures on-line. Second, If you read the quote you posted you will see that Venturers can indeed earn Eagle Palms. Third, just because a boy is not eligable for Eagle does not necessarily mean he is not eligable to work on merit badges. Venturing also has badges of rank which females are indeed allowed to earn so "badges of rank" are NOT just for males.

LongHaul

local1400,

Where is the study located on the web site?

LH

Jschlich,

      My concern is to determine where your priorities lie and why. As for the testimony in court please remember that our SE and Executive board have been saying different things for the last 7 years much of which turned out to be absolutely the opposite of what they actually have done. The firm assurances that neither Hoover or Owasippe were being considered for sale while at that very time Hoover had already been listed and Owasippe was in the process of being surveyed prior to sale, being only one. If the "Council" is forced to accept a 7 million dollar reduction in their proceeds what makes you think they will still be interested in leasing anything from the OOEC? If the continuation of camping on the disputed 4765 acres was something the board wanted why did they recently remove all proponents of such a move from the Camping Committee? You are singing the same tune our SE sang when he arrived, fresh from selling camps or attempting to sell camps in the other councils he served, "Trust Me". Were do your priorities lie sir? With the camp, the land or the community in which the land exists. Ranked in order of importance of course.

LongHaul

Just got off the phone with an old friend who had just returned from Merit Badge Counselor Training. He asked me if I knew whether or not the Merit Badge Program was open to Venturers. I began to explain that only males who had earned the rank of First Class while a boy scout could advance to Eagle when he reminded me that was not what he had asked. Is the Merit Badge Program open to Venturers? Specifically must a male be working toward Eagle to qualify to work on a merit badge? Can a female Venturer earn a merit badge? I told him I'd see what I could find out. Any thoughts? More importantly any references to BSA publications that address this issue.

LongHaul

From the OOEC web site;

Will Owasippe continue to be used as a Boy Scout camp?

Yes, we certainly hope so. Owasippe will offer outstanding programs and facilities and will make them available to any BSA Council or individual Scout Troop or Venture Crew. The OOEC would assure that the Owasippe facilities, staff and operations will meet or exceed the National Standards of the BSA before making it available to Scouts. The OOEC would love to have the Chicago Area Council as an anchor client. We have no reason to think that Boy Scouts will stop wanting to use the property for summer camping, and we can assure that it will be available to them. We are keenly aware that the history of Owasippe is Scout camping, and we have no intention of ending that rich tradition. It is important to note that National Standards do not require that a camp operating a BSA program must be owned by a BSA Council. So long as National Standards are met and adhered to, Scout camping can happen at a non-Council-owned facility. <<<<<<<

            The Chicago Area Council, should it still exist, will never endorse a Boy Scout Camp on this property and thereby admit to having been mistaken in selling the property in the first place. The OOEC has no plans to run a Boy Scout Camp itself. I hopes someone else will step up and undertake this effort. The OOEC hopes that all those troops that are not and have not been coming to Owasippe while it was council owned will now see the light and support the OOECs efforts. As I have stated there are two issues here, while those of us concerned in preserving our Scout Camp fully support the efforts of the OOEC and others the reverse is not the case.  Owasippe will no longer exist after the sale, the land will remain but Owasippe isn't JUST 4765 acres of land.

LongHaul

nldscout,

 I absolutely believe National would have dissolved the Chicago Area Council had the civil suit not been dropped. I believe they would have put a board of their choosing into place if the slate had not been approved. As for the power to do this I simply state that National issues charters to councils the same as councils enter into chartering agreements with COs. If National decides not to extend the charter for a council that council no longer exists. When councils merge it is rarely at the request of the councils involved.

Jschlich,

 I stand corrected as to your residence but would like to ask if you are a property owner of that area?

LongHaul

I would like to make something clear once again. There are two separate concerns pertaining to "Owasippe". One concerns 4765 acres of land in Michigan's Manestee National Forest and one concerns a BOY SCOUT CAMP which has been in existence since 1911. When Jschlich speaks about saving Owasippe, and he speaks about the formation of the OOEC (Owasippe Outdoor Education Center)he speaks about 4765 acres of land. Jschlich is a resident of Blue Lake Township in which Owasippe exists. He says that >>"There is no concerted effort to stop the sale of Owasippe...the controversy is about the building of houses or keeping it as camp property, probably under an owner who supports the concept of a youth camp facility on the property."<< He has in the past repeatedly stated that the opposition to the sale has nothing to do with the "governance issues" within the Chicago Area Council. If Jschlich and the OOEC get their way there will no longer be a BOY SCOUT CAMP on the 4765 acres of land serving the SCOUTS of Chicago Area Council. Chicago Area Council may possibly no longer exist after this is finished but even if it did still exists the current board will never authorize a BOY SCOUT CAMP connected with CAC to be sponsored on that land. Owasippe will no longer exist, all we will have is 4765 acres of land that the new owners want to call the OOEC. The fight to prevent the sale and loss of our BOY SCOUT CAMP has not stopped it is only less visible due to the lack of people willing to openly support that effort. Stopping the loss of our camp is a matter of principle for some of us not an effort to protect our own interests. If CAC was going to sell the land to the Gerald Ford Council which owns and operates the camp across the street from Owasippe there are those of us that would be fighting that sale. Jschlich would not be one of that group. I have nothing against Jschlich or the OOEC but this is a BOY SCOUT forum and the loss of Owasippe as a BOY SCOUT camp is far more important than protecting someone's back yard and personal interests.  If CAC were planning to expand and open 5 more camps Jschlich would not be hollering about the flora and fauna or the preservation of the land.  It's not the land they want to save; it's there personal interest that are threatened.

LongHaul