00Eagle

Have people left due to toxicity on the part of Key 3 members, individually or collectively?  Sorry, just trying to read between the lines.  I've been in a few situations where nearly everyone bailed due to toxicity coming from the top.

Recharter fees, on the charter, are $24 per person; Boys Life at $12 (I think still) per; a general charter fee of $20.  Other fees would normally be council level insurance, which does not show on the actual charter paperwork, and possibly advance payment for unit honor recognitions.  Do not believe councils can add local charges on top of the National fees, though could be wrong. 

I've seen councils charge an activity fee per enrolled youth with the recharter packet.  I'm not sure it's "legal" with BSA national, maybe they just haven't been called on it.  It is hard to find publicly available contact information for BSA higher-up's (e.g. the Area Director's office number) for anyone to report it up the chain. 

At least the FOS pitch is modified to include the amount rather than lie and say all of the registration money goes to National.

Scouter Matt,

A lot of what you said is true but I've seen some exceptions:

-there is a tenure system that on reaching 3 years service (& promotion to Senior DE) a professional can leave, gain experience in a related sector, and return to the BSA.  I've seen an SDE leave, work for another non-profit and come back as a Development Director.

-I've seen some inside office functions filled by non-insiders, e.g. council CFO wasn't a professional scouter (possibly the reason for the CFO title vs "Director of Finance Services").  But for the large part, the "X directors" and the "Directors of Y Services" are promoted from within. 

-around here, the live-in rangers are also Camp Directors during summer camp season.  Program directors are volunteers (school teachers). 

The BSA has a rather odd management structure: only in the BSA can you be "demoted" into a position you just supervised, get a pay raise, and not have it look bad.  How?  Once promoted to Scout Executive in a small (usually) council, an SE moves up by seeking employment with larger (and higher-paying) councils with occasional detours through national and regional positions.  An SE can serve several small councils, get promoted to Area Director overseeing 10-12 local councils, and then take a position as Scout Executive in a bigger council for higher pay than his Area Director salary.  I've seen an AD appointed to fill a vacancy in his own area, essentially becoming supervised by his own replacement.  Some large councils can pay the #2 position (assistant/associate/deputy scout exec, director of field service, COO, whatever) more than the little councils pay their #1.

Also BSA has that odd quirk of requiring a Scout Executive to serve two masters: the local council board paying his salary and the National BSA, whose personnel offices he relies on for the next promotion.  When a council has a Scout Executive vacancy, they can't just hire a successful exec from a local non-profit.  The board is allowed to tell BSA what they're looking for (a "program guy," "ace recruiter" (membership), fund raiser, manpower/volunteer recruiter, etc.).  BSA national gives them a stack of several resumes/dossiers and that's it: they can only hire from that limited list.

 Depends on the council.  I was told I could form the new troop originally with 2 boys.  I didn't ask questions, but I did get my 5 boys anyway.

Do you see a chance of recruiting three more in the near future?  My own troop kept itself alive (before an exodus from another troop reinvigorated it*) by rechartering with the names of former members listed as active.  They were down to two scouts.

*=I was a part of this exodus, but not in the first wave.  The other troop had leadership and discipline issues.

Has anyone successfully found the VOS dashboard and findings on MyScouting?  I'm guessing it's available to the District Key 3?

I used to have access to it when I held council committee registration.  Each month I knew whether the council was losing or gaining membership and how the finances looked.

I can see it applying to specific events and/or contingents.  Go on a Philmont trek with a council-contingent, wear the contingent neckerchief.  At the big council jamboree, wear a council neckerchief.

Wow our state parks have flush toilets and showers. All of them. It's the national parks that are more primitive.

Here in outer suburbia, we have a county park that has a pit latrine.

Bad Wolf is just clowning around.

 

But I think it is an interesting discussion. He has a valid point except I think our scouting forefathers meant exclusively the Christian God.

 

Back then, the U.S. wasn't the multicultural paradise that it is now. Antisemitism was widely acceptable until WWII. Even today my Jewish friends are surprised that synagogues sponsor BSA troops; they always thought Boy Scouts was a Christian thing. As for Muslims, wouldn't the BSA have used the Allah if that's what they meant?

 

Language is very powerful. The BSA should consider that God be changed to "your god(s)", "divine spirit", or "the universe."

All of you would be very surprised to learn that Mortimer Schiff, a Jewish banker from New York, was a founding vice president of the BSA.  He was 5th National President (died in office) while his son John was 7th National President.

The fact that Trail Life started with a policy on sexual matters that was almost identical too the new one that the BSA chose when they split is interesting. The primary difference is that Trail Life limits it's leaders to Christians only (and only the "right kind").

 

My personal opinion is that shows the disagreement wasn't really about gays, but about religious pluralism. The gay fight was actually a proxy fight over whether the BSA would favor one group of religions (conservative Christians) over all others. The result of the vote showed that they were beginning to fail in their efforts to enforce their religious orthodoxy on the BSA, so they left to form their Christians only group.

I've heard similar statements that Trail Life's formation was really a result of losing the conservative Christian dominance on BSA.

I'm confused - Trail Life accepts gay youth?  Wasn't Trail Life founded as a reaction to the BSA admitting gay youth?  Barely 2 years old and they're alreadt compromising their message?

Yes it was formed as a reaction and accepts gay youth.  What's the difference? Trail Life allows you to "pray away the gay."  OK what they really say is leaders are allowed to minister to these "troubled" youth.  BSA has more of a hands off policy to gay youth.

 

 The most interesting to me is that Jewish committee has decided to know recommend scouting.  Previously, they were discouraging it top their congregations.

 

 

 

The Jewish Committee is part of the BSA.  They never stopped recommending Scouting to congregations, it's their job.  The problem is that the Reform denomination (the largest) has had an outright condemnation statement against the BSA since 2001.  There are some remaining Reform-chartered units where the congregation kept the unit (or rarely, started a new unit) because of a long-standing relationship, to be a voice for change from within, or because they thought scouting's benefits outweighed the cons.  The Conservative movement (fairly liberal, but slightly more politically conservative, much more liturgically conservative than Reform) may not have had an explicit condemnation but congregations seemed hostile to new unit starts.

What Bruce's National JCoS email is suggesting is that "our troubles are over!  Hit the recruiting trail hard!"  There have been no retraction statements yet (and they may balk at the local option vs full inclusion) but things look promising. 

--00Eagle, former Council Jewish Chairman

The ones that seem most possessive or protective of the Eagle "brand" are usually those who don't wear it.

Not only can he become eagle, he can be given until well past his 18th birthday to do it.  I'm not that experienced with "Scouts with Disabilities" programs but do know that scouting allows for "developmental age" to be taken into account for its program age levels.

He sounds like Eagle scout material to me.  Chances are your council may have a disabilities advocate or expert.  If not there are BSA resources (some online) that may be available.  Worst case: the Guide to Advancement has all of the appeals procedures for signature denials. 

OK, I grew up on Long Island so I'll weigh in here:

Beascout.org shows quite a few packs surrounding the 11790 (Stony Brook) zip code including two in Stony Brook proper.  Most packs have updated contact info in beascout and many even have web page links.  Stony Brook Pack 18 has a website but it is linked of the district page, not beascout  That area is still suburbia so the closest pack or neighborhood pack will probably depend on exactly what town and school district (and which particular elementary school) they end up in.  To clarify to a non-Long Islander, when I say "next town over" I don't mean drive twenty miles on a rural highway and a town appears.  It's more like drive down a main road lined with stores and strip malls and all of the sudden the sign next to the road says you're in a new community yet it all looks the same.

The immediate area is part of Suffolk County Council's Benjamin Tallmadge District.  The council website has a district map overlaid on top of local school districts here: http://www.sccbsa.org/pages/districts.php I'd pass on the DE's contact info: Robert Rabbitt 631-924-7000, ext. 117

I'm not from a Micosay council (there are only two remaining, both artifacts of H. Roe Bartle's career, a third merged their program into OA (Mic-o-say Lodge) might have been others) so I don't see a dominance of OA at camp, mostly because OA tends to be tied to council/lodge and not specifically to a camp.  This is somewhat unfortunate as your lodges events and workdays during the spring & fall are tied to its councils camps, and often (from my experience) specifically tied to its "suburban" Cub World or overnight-only camp while the council's summer camp is either non-existent or far outside the geographic territory.

My experience is mostly from camping out of council or in camps with large out-of-council presence.  In recent years, I've just seen an OA day worked into the week: wear your sash, OA-hosted service project during siesta, OA ice cream social in the evenings.  In-camp elections and/or ordeals are rare but still happen in some lodges.

@@SpEdScouter,  @@Cambridgeskip posted a good link in reply to one of my posts:  http://12thcambridge.org.uk/cub-photos-from-back-in-the-day/

the uniform color code is Beavers are turquoise, Cubs dark green, Scouts are teal-blue, Explorers and Young Leaders (like Den Chiefs and troop guides) are tan, and adults are light khaki.

Toten Chip on Wii.

 

Virtual Rock climbing (holodeck?)

 

Swim Safety Defense in Youtube?

Achievement Unlocked: Totin' Chip

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Definitely a product of its time.  A war hero publishes a book on military scouting and survival skills that somehow captures the desires of boys playing army and dreaming of the Wild West.  He finds a way to channel that into something age-appropriate that satisfies both the boys' needs and society's objectives.

The equivalent today would be General Mattis or Dakota Meyer starting "Call of Duty Scouts" or something of that nature.  Yeah, would never happen.

I could see something like this (http://brooklynforest.org/about-us/)* forming to help with what some commentators called "Nature Deficiency Disorder."

*=disclaimer: not affiliated with this group in any way but the founder is a high school classmate and his wife was a grade ahead of us.

Your thoughts on this quote from Gates' 2014 NAM address... 

He wasn't counting on the Supreme Court decision to allow gay marriage, councils to go into outright revolt in critical mass, or GNYC to hire a gay summer camp staffer with threats of employment lawsuits if he was terminated.  Three factors that totally changed the landscape since May '14.

Oh yeah, I should add I'm not tied in any way to the name "Beavers."  It started in Canada and the UK adopted it next.  Australians use "Joeys" while NZ uses "Keas."   Call it what ever you like, even "Tigers and Wolves."

Yes, for the suburban camps COPE, climbing, aquatics in the warmer months, shooting sports, and other staffed events are available:  http://www.camps.ppbsa.org/cubs/weekend_progs.htm

Thanks for chiming in @@Cambridgeskip!

By the way, if you happen to bump in to an American scouter with Wood Badge beads studying at the University of Cambridge, he's a friend of mine.  I think he's helping out with explorers and I forgot the group number, might be 13th.

Hmmm. Does that remove the Supreme Court protection from Dale? Not an attorney so I don't know. @@Merlyn_LeRoy seems to suggest that there has to be some sort of more substantive change to remove the coverage from Dale; unless I mis-read the intent of his post.

I doubt it.  However Dale only covers MEMBERSHIP, not employment.  That's probably one of the key factors forcing the recent change.  In future years some archivist will probably write the definitive book with all of the national board's and national executives' email traffic and we'll really know how it went down.

When Greater NY Councils hired a gay employee, they essentially called the BSA's bluff: a church can use the "ministerial exemption" in employment (e.g. to fire a gay youth pastor) but the BSA is not a church, and if it declared itself a religion it would have angered more sponsors and parents.  If GNYC fired Tessier at national's behest, either New York's EEOC or the federal EEOC would have crucified the council and national collectively.

Can BSA now, after going to the local option, compel units who elect to restrict membership to open up?

Yes if it's published in the official literature, as the chartering agreements require the troop be operated in accordance with the publsihed literature.

[verbatim]

Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies. They may be found on the My Scouting website and at the following location:

www.scouting.org/Membership/Charter_Orgs/resources.aspx

@@blw2 and @@Rick_in_CA

I've based my ideas on following the old newsgroup uk.rec.scouting and escouts.org.uk among others to see who scouting is conducted in other English speaking countries. 

While I know traditionally cubs did not begin until 3rd grade/8 years old, I'm not quite ready to eliminate 1st and 2nd graders from our program.  More and more organized activities compete for kids’ time and if you don't hook them early you may not hook them at all.  We are very bad at recruiting middle schoolers directly into boy scouts and I'm not sure how easy it would be to recruit 8 year olds into cubs off the street.

I've looked at how the Brits do cub scouts. @@Cambridgeskip can correct me if I’m wrong.  They've modified the badge system over the years, but they still preserve the structure of the "six:" six cubs of mixed age with a senior cub appointed as "sixer" and a "seconder" as his assistant.  All sixes meet together in the pack hall for the pack night, participating in activities as members of the six or members of the pack.  There are no adult "six leaders" just a cub leader and assistants for the entire pack.  Their camping style is closer to den/patrol camping than family camp.  Culturally, this may or may not work in the US.  I’ve even seen some posts from UK Scouters indicating parents’ lack of trust in sending scouts off to camp with younger, non-parent leaders.