LauraT7

in attempting to provide a program that gets a boy to first class / first year - we have a disagreement in time in our troop.

We get boys in from Webelos and non-scouts, anytime from Feb of their 5th grade year to June. They do not all come in one clump, but rather in spurts, singles and small groups from the same pack. (we do not have a 'feeder' pack, we have to WORK hard to recruit!) some are active from the start, some are in spring sports and don't really get active until summer campouts and summer camp. We do have about a 95% turnout for summer camp - mostly because we have done two camps for the last two years.

I would think that offering enough opportunities to get these various 'starters' to First Class by Summer Camp or June of 6th grade, is a reasonable goal - roughly 12 - 16 months for the 'year'. If they don't have it by then, the 2nd year of summer camp gives them ample opportiunities to catch up with their peers before the big August COH.

others in our troop think First Class / First year means 12 months - period. Feb to Feb or April to April. With the varying start times, this makes it kinda tough to fit in all the activities bracketed as it is by winter months. (We're in Northern Illinois - cold slush mud and yuch for 6 of those 12 months.)

What is the intent/ goal of FCFY? 12 mos or end of 6th grade regardless of start time?

A tough topic.

When I first started in BOY Scouting, one of the longtime male leaders and I discussed this on a trip (no boys in the car, I was pulling the trailer and he was my navigator - along for company) He had been uncomfortable with the YP tapes we had shown recently and his take on it was to avoid any discussion at all. He has no kids and has not had to face

'the discussion' himself, either personally or with someone else's kids.

He asked me if, as a woman, didn't I feel uncomfortable discussing sexual responsibility, relationships, abuse, etc around teenage boys and wasn't it better to leave that to their Fathers and Mothers?

I agreed - IF the boys felt able to talk to their parents. It is a sad fact that often, kids DON'T have a secure enough relationship with a parent to open such a discussion. Lot's of kids don't feel comfortable talking to a parent about anything - much less sex!

But YP isn't just about Sexual Abuse and sexual behavior - it's about ANY kind of abuse, any kind of difficult situation where a child might need the help and support of an understanding adult. it takes many OTHER steps of neglect and abuse, breaks of trust, to get to a point where a child can be sexually abused.

There is alot of talk about children's rights. In our legal system today, on a individual, personal level, 'childrens rights' is bunk. Children are treated by the legal system much like pets. Only when irreversable damage is already done, does the law step in and protect them. parents have more 'rights' than a child, and parents are often the abusers or allow the abuse to happen.

I pointed out - that as a single parent of a child who has been abused by the other parent - I have had to face some pretty tough situations and frank discussions with my son from the time he was a toddler. I have had to fight for him legally, and deal with the outcome when the courts did NOT protect him adequately. the most important thing in protecting my child has come from keeping a trustworthy line of communication open with him. He can, and does, talk to me about anything.

When it comes to my son, it IS my job to support him, educate him and teach him a value system that will serve him for life. He also knows how to protect and defend himself, if necessary, and he knows that i will ALWAYS be there for him. It is surprising to me how many children DON'T feel they have that unwaivering support of their families.

When it comes to the boys in my troop - It is not my job to educate them beyond what their parents have authorized. My behavior, and the relationship I have with my son, and the relationships I build with the boys and adults in the troop provide an example that teaches better than any lecture or movie. It is my job to provide encouragement, support, trust, an open mind and a non-judgemental attitude so that should a boy find himself needing an adult, he knows that he can depend on me - that he can TRUST me.

In our troop - we had a hazing issue come up at summer camp. In hindsight, it was not that serious an issue and caused no permanent damage. In fact, the discussions and intense YP training that came in it's wake had a hugely POSITIVE effect on our troop. We now have a zero tolerance policy for teasing, name calling and belittling. In or outside of the troop. Our boys feel truly SAFE with anyone in our troop. When the innuendo/ jokes start - as they inevitably do with the older boys, they are much more likely to keep it among the older boys and away from the 5th and 6th graders. I find that the boys, in general are much more open and relate to the other troop members, (boys AND adults) as a large family - in our various schools, churches, and other activities, I see our troops boys hang out together and support each other more than ever before.

BSA does not encourage us to discuss sexual issues or beliefs with the boys in our care. However, BSA does want us to be role models, mentors,and guides for them. Providing a secure and open environment for communication is the best way to prevent danger and promote good decisions, sexual or otherwise.

We call ours "Family Night / COH "

We generally do 4 COH's a year - approx one a quarter. Two are meals/family/social time. For the Jan one it is potluck/awards/ skits - for the August one (alot of awards because it is after summer camp) we meet in the park at a shelter. The troop provides meat, bread and pop, everyone brings a dish or dessert to share. We play softball or volleyball, have a big waterfight, we might do a scouting demo campsite or shoot off the rockets the Space Explorer badge boys made.

The other two COH's, simple ceremonies with cookies or pie and punch - sometimes don't draw many people. but the two big family nights are ALWAYS packed - often with extended familes, grandparents and others.

Our troop USED to do one nighter campouts (SAt AM to Sun noon) - we finally and recently got it turned back around to two nighters after long consideration..... (and some arguments)

For my money, if you're gonna go - go the whole weekend. Sat/ Sun sucks up most of the weekend anyway, and the boys get an extra 'night' and often an extra meal or two to cook (fri dinner and sat breakfast) important if you have boys who are trying to move ahead on 1st Class advancements.

although we do still try to get home fairly early on Sundays - on the road by noon, usually - because boys still have homework to do and need to be prepped for school the next day - clothes, rest, showers, etc.

so now, our policy is to do two or more nights in summer and on school holidays (like the recent Veteran's day long weekend - which is combined here with teacher service days and conferences - a 5 day weekend!) and do one nighters, sometimes, for regular weekends when school is in session. We try to take advantage of extra days off and monday holiday weekends to plan our trips, so that even if the parents have to return to work on Mon, the boys get and extra day to do homework (some teachers DO tend to think that a long weekend means extra homework!)

So since the change to 2 nighters in May - now our schedule is about 1 - 2 night campout a month - except for Dec & JAn, and July. Dec we do a lock-in at our CO church - usually a family night, chritmas party and then the parents leave and the boys stay up and watch videos. just for fun. Jan or FEB - depending on when Klondike is, we plan a 1 night winter survival. July we go to summer camp and spend a week. The last two years we went to two different camps in July - each one was a week.

We are starting to do some patrol campouts - but they ARE supervised. There is not anywhere around here, except maybe someones private land, which we don't have, that we would want boys to be alone.

so Weekends - 9, or 18 nights

indoor - lock in - 1 night

outdoor, winter 2 - 1 night (klondike and survival)

and one or two weeks of summer camp.

next year we plan to have a boundary Waters trip of 1 week and one week of summer camp.

so Whole troop - about 33 nights

in addition, there's some who attend JLT, might go on a patrol outing or two, or are active in OA.

There is one place that i witnessed many 'wonders'- all the memories run together of our family's many trips to the Nicolet National forest, and Sylvania .

We started going up there in the late 60's, when Sylvania first opened. it was truly 'virgin' forest then - the woods so thick that 10' away from the waters edge you could not hear a shout from someone in the woods. Trees downed by storms were left to decay and were so protected from wind and weather deep in the woods, that if you walked up and touched one, it would crumble to dust. Animals were not used to - nor were they really afraid of humans - I could entice chipmunks to practically take food from my hand if I were very still. The lakes were crystal clear and sand bottomed - natural beaches all around - but the forest started a foot from the waters edge - straight, tall and impenetrable. The forest service had to clear specific 'tent pad' areas for tents - and you had to be a serious camper/ canoeist to get in - no camping was allowed on the entrance lake - you HAD to portage at least once to get to the first available campsite, and there were only 3 or 4 campsites on each lake of the 5-6 lake chain. we would go up there to camp for a week and never see another living soul.

On one week-long campout with my family, it rained - no POURED, the entire week. EVERYTHING got soaked, (remember, most tents were canvas back then) We had with us, on her first real campout - my brother's fiance. (After that trip, I'm surprised she married him!) One afternoon we were sick of sitting in the tent and decided that we couldn't get any wetter out on the lake, so we went for a paddle to go see this old house - mansion, really - that was further down the lake and was scheduled to be torn down the next year. As we were paddling the length of the lake, the rain let up for a bit and the sun peeked out. We were about 15 feet from shore, and passing a small clearing/ firebreak in the trees when we saw a group of 6 or 7 wolves playing and crossing the clearing. 2 were young pups, and obviously playing like puppies do. they saw us, stopped and stared, and we looked right back. then they blended into the trees and were gone - leaving us wondering and in awe.

I was 16 in 1976 - the year of the Bicentennial - and typical of a 16 yr old, I was mad at my parents for making me miss all the celebrations and fireworks for a trip to the backwoods the first week in July. On the evening of July 4, 1976, i was pouting and poking the campfire, and listening to the loons calling mournfully (I still and will ALWAYS love the call of Loons)- when voices floated to us across the lake singing 'America the Beautiful' - when they finished, my family and i answered with 'my county 'tis of thee', we were answered by a third set of voices further down the lake. We continued with patriotic songs for an hour or more - singing and being seranaded by our invisible friends across the water. It was a magical thing.

in all the years since, I am sure that I participated in a much more meaningful celebration of our country's bicentennial, than all the parties and fireworks I might have missed.

There were many, many wondrous moments up in Sylvania tho in later years, it became more populated and commercialized - in the late 70's there were hiking trails all through it and around the lakes, people would hike right through our campsite. the woods were thinned by people building campfires, and the wildlife learned to fear men.

in one way, i would like to go back up there - to show my son the wonder of the place - but in another way, i prefer to to keep the memory of the place, pure and untouched.

for you scout wish list, the obvious is sometimes overlooked by non- scouts, so for your list I would add:

a pocketknife (sized for a boys hand - not 369 gadgets)

knfe sharpener stone or kit

a multi-tool

a mess kit

a silverware set

a compass

rainsuit (NOT a poncho)

inexpensive headband flashlight

backpacker/ biking size personal first aid kit

sample size toiletries for camp

carbiner hooks

magnesium firestarter

a COVER for their handbook, (or small bag to hold book, pen and paper - zippered bible covers work, too)

or the new spiral bound handbook

a star/ constellation guide

an extra troop t- shirt!

a blanket for their patches

fleece sleeping bag liner

winter sleeping bag

self-inflating sleep pad

a watch with an alarm (lots of our boys don't wear watches!)

an inexpensive camera or disposable cameras

a fanny pack for camp or day trips

scout uniform parts (pants, belt, socks)

for specialty trippers -

Dry bags

camelback water carriers

a backpack

hiking socks

thermal wear

bike emergency repair kit

gel seat for bike

bike packs or saddlebags

for the adults -

any training books or scout books and anything they don't have from the above list

I like the photography badge - but it needs to be updated to include digital photography.

They made cooking WAY too complicated and long - when a badge ends up with 3-4 pages of requirements, it's time to cut it into two badges - say, home cooking and outdoor cooking?

it is interesting to note that in the year since my last post on this thread, things have turned over almost completely in our troop.

the boy who was such a problem with personal equipment has left the troop, and the other boys definately felt his attitude, because they bend over backwards to share with each other now.

We DID run into a situtation at summer camp this summer where we did not have enough troop tents for the boys - even with buying two new tents right before camp (we wanted three, but could not get the third in time) and so some of the older boys who DO have their own tents started bringing theirs, as well as stoves. We have plenty of equipment now, but they do have pride in owning their own equipment and enjoy using it. The boys who bring their own tents all have smaller 2-3 man backpacking tents - and we have not had any problems with tentmates.

No one wants to bring 'family' tents - they all use the troop tents or personal backpacking tents.

We do have one boy who is a total slob - he dumps his pack and spreads it all over - he's the kind of kid who leaves a trail behind hm everywhere he goes. NO ONE wants to tent with him and he prefers to be alone - at least for sleeping. At least, then, everyone knows that all the junk in his tent is all his!

I've switched to using a troop tent - as the solid week of rain at summer camp proved to be the last campout for my trusty old tent. It spent the week covered in plastic to keep me and my tentmate dry!

We did take some of the boys from the PLC on a comparison shopping trip to the big camping stores (REI, Gander Mountain and Galyans)to look at possibly getting some backpacking tents. We wanted them to be able to see the differences in a quality tent and a cheap tent. And the boys decided they would rather stick with the Timberlines for summer camp and troop outings, and use their personal tents or tarps for backpacking. THEY decided they didn't really want to spend the money on backpacking tents. they realized that backpacking tents would take more care than the tough Timberline Outfitters, and figured that the boys would take better care of their OWN tents, that they would of troop tents.

As the boys LEARN on the Timberlines - how to care for them, etc. (they do tend to smell like old gym socks & a little mildewy) They decided that they would keep getting the timberlines for the younger boys who did not have their own tents, but let the older boys bring and maintain their own, if they wished. It seemed like a well thought out decision to me!

as an aside, I got to go with the boys on this shoppping trip - it was LOADS of fun! We had a gret time and they learned alot about tents and other equipment. i learned alot, too - and will probably be buying a smaller tent next year!

laura

I see two problems here -

the first is YP training. A scout should NEVER be alone one on one with any adult, registered or not, unless that adult is the scouts own parent. Two adults, one kid; two kids, one adult; or more than three, or a public place is OK. We do stretch the rules a little in our troop because we have two familes that work nights and their boys need rides to and from meetings. so they always ride with another boy and his parent(s) - never with a leader alone. We have a couple of ASM's who do not have kids in the troop - they do not offer rides for YP reasons. ALL of our volunteers are great, upstanding citizens and I would trust any one of them with my child. But rules are there for good reasons. YP isn't just about sexual predators - it's about common sense.

The second problem is in their interpretation of the requirement they are trying to cover, which is for 1st Class - 4a, b and e.

4a. Help plan a patrol menu for one campout - including one breakfast, lunch, and dinner - that requires cooking. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the food pyramid and meets nutritional needs.

b. Using the menu planned in requirement 4a, make a list showing the cost and food amounts needed to feed three or more boys and secure the ingredients.

e. On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup.

in no part does it say that the boy has to cook for the entire campout - only 3 meals, breakfast lunch and dinner. (However, a short campout might be just 3 meals) It does NOT say he has to do all the planning, preparation and shopping by himself.

For this requirement we get around these problems in a couple of ways.

We have a couple of adults who often take the boys shopping - If there is only one leader available to go shopping, we have parents drop the boys at the store and meet them there.

the adult is there to write the check and offer advice if asked - usually needed only if the group of scouts is all first- year scouts.

prior to arriving at the store, we have them divide up the list by department, and check the sale ads - dairy, meat, frozen food, etc. When we arrive at the store, everyone goes to find the things on their list - they meet back at the front of the store, check their lists, make any changes or swaps and put everything in one cart. we checkout and go home.

As for the three meals, we seldom have one boy cook all meals in one weekend. usually there are quite a few boys that need this requirement - so a boy will cook a breakfast at one campout, a lunch at another and a dinner at a third, so that everyone gets a chance at cooking AND cleanup. that is our troops' interpretation of how to handle the requirement - rather than making the duty rosters unbalanced. Other troops may not interpret it the same way - but it works for us.

__________

we recently had a new ASM - who does not have any kids - offer to administer the BSA swim test for a boy who needed only that last requirement for his first class. He wanted to 'invite' the boy to his health club as his 'guest' (and any others who wanted to do the requirement, too) and go through the swim test so they could complete the requirement and not wait for summer camp or a special troop swim. His heart was in the right place, but he was so new he had not been trained and did not understand that if it had ANYTHING to do with scouting that it had to be under scouting rules. that included YP, Safe swim guidelines, etc.

We WILL do a swim test soon for the boys that need it - but it will be under ALL of scoutings rules.

I am a counselor for camping merit badge and I have talked to a number of other camping counselors about alot of the badge requirements, but I have never heard of anyone I know requiring a boy to START counting his nights of camping after he gets the badge card - it certainly does not say that anywhere in the badge requirements.

There are quite a few badges that DO specify that work is to be started AFTER the badge card is received, or that work on the badge must be pre-approved by the badge counselor - so if it were BSA's intent to have the boys START counting nights after the badge card were received, then they would have deliberately worded it that way. They are that specific on alot of other things - why not the camping badge?

As the others have said - it is not up to the TROOP to determine anything regarding badges, except, possibly the actual issueing of the Blue Merit Badge cards to start the badge. How a boy earns any badge and what the counselor accepts as fullfilling the requirements are between the boy and the counselor. BSA requires of a badge counselor that they neither add, nor change any requirements - though some requirements are open to a certain amount of interpretation - it's still up to the badge counselor alone to decide if a boy qualifies. And the boy can always go to a different badge counselor, too.

I answered this on the other board - but on thing you do have to realize is that most of those photos in the scouting magazines and other publication were not 'posed' by the uniform police -

If I'm taking photos of my troop's boy's in action on a camporee or summer camp, I am not going to stop the action to tell some kid to tuck in his shirt or to go change into his uniform pants from yesterday, or to take of the patch that mom sewed onto the wrong side of his uniform.... I'm going to snap the photo and hope that people will see the IMPORTANT part - scouts having FUN - and that they will overlook a uniform error.

I do, however, AT MEETINGS, try to promote correct uniforming - to the point of telling the boys that if they wear the troop t-shirt under their uniform shirt whent they come to meetings, that I will sew, or teach them to sew, their patches on correctly. Despite my offer, very few take me up on it.

It always amazes me how some people treat sewing on a few little patches as being almost as difficult as running the Boston marathon or performing surgery!

As FOG suggests, many people put up barriers to wearing the uniforms - and to be truthful, it is sometimes difficult to have my son's and my uniforms clean and unwrinkled on the appointed Monday meeting day - especially if we have been camping that weekend. It often means that we come home tired and dirty and I immediately have to do laundry. To add to it, My son and I are both ADD and very disorganised, and our home is often cluttered. But somehow we always manage to show up in full uniform! I figure if we can do it - others can, too!

the one family I can see giving lenience to, is two boys in our troop that live in an apartment. Because both parents work nights and they do laundry at the laundromat - it may not be possible for them to get a weekend dirtied uniform clean and wearable from sunday night to monday night. I can see that other families might have a similar problem, sometimes.

I agree with you - in one way - that the uniforms shown outside (and even sometimes inside BSA) are often not correct.

However - at some of those photoshoots - such as one recently where the President's office presented some award to various scouts who had received medals for something - I bet there's a photographer who is saying 'Bring all your awards and do-dad's to 'dress' the photo. And these are kids - and they want to show off their acheivments to the world so they don't argue the finer points of uniforming with the photograher.

and to tell the truth - to anyone outside of scout leadership, (and many inside the program) exactly HOW the uniform is worn is unknown, anyway. the Average person looking at those photos has no idea what an ordeal sash is or what it signifies. In fact, alot of scouts don't know if they are not in OA. Other than the rank of "Eagle" which has been very widely publicised - the ranks, badges, patches and other insignia are pretty much unknown to someone not actively in scouting.

I have also heard, in our area at least - that the OA lodge is not very active, and being elected into OA is really treated more like an 'honor reward' rather than the true purpose of being elected because the person has something to offer the order and would be moved to serve to further the scouting program outside of their troop participation.

I see in our area and troop, anyway - that the boys being brought into OA are not active, that they seldom participate outside of ceremonies - callout and ordeals, etc. And unless they are ACTIVE - there's not much reason to wear that sash, is there? yet if it's treated as an AWARD and not as a badge of SERVICE - i can understand why many would wear it incorrectly.

As for the pants issue - that has been a problem not only in photos, but across the nation. I think it's alot bigger than some being ill-informed - Many troops, Districts, and councils accept these uniform variations and in fact, BSA states that you can't MAKE a boy WEAR a uniform at all. So if you can't force 'a' uniform - you can't very well enforce particular uniform rules, either.

I know that our council has put out a request to send in photos of 'boys in action' to build a photo library - and since I take many photos for our troop on events and outings - many have the boys in troop t-shirts, uniform shirts and many in 'improper' uniforms. Some because the boys haven't gotten the proper uniforming message,(no matter how many times we repeart it) some because they can't afford all the uniform parts, and some because they shed or don't use parts on certain events (like they don't wear pins and sashes on campouts)

Wow! I could only WISH that this would happen in our troop - though it isn't the scoutmaster who wants to change outings, it's the committee.

Someone has taught the boys in your troop WELL! Great to see things working the way they SHOULD!

LOL!

well, Packsaddle, I don't consider 'cabin camping' to be 'camping' either - but apparently BSA does - just not for qualifying for the Camping badge - that is why, I suppose, that they specify camping "in a tent you have pitched or under the stars".

but one of our problems was that we were NOT doing one overnight a month, and some that we did were not camping - they were indoor overnights.

'Cabin camping' is listed as an option for overnights in TroopMaster, so apparently it is a fairly common type of outing for lots of troops.

'Cabin camping' is any overnight outing under a roof - such as spending the night on the USS Cobia submarine, or in a cabin at our council camp in the winter, or a lock-in at our church with the troop. like regular camping, the boys still have to plan and often, to cook meals - they just sleep indoors.

I do think i heard somewhere that Order of the Arrow had changed their rules recently and are now allowing overnights that are NOT in tents or under the stars (cabin camping)to count toward the required nights for nomination to OA.

For those of us in snowy parts of the country, 'cabin camping' is an acceptable way to start trying winter outdoor activities. The only reason i can see that the boys sometimes don't like winter tent camping is that they are not all equipped for it. Although at our first opportunity to 'cabin camp' I and the other mom along felt much more comfortable in our clean, tight tent than in the musty, moldy, dusty, breezy, smoky, spider and mouse infested cabin the boys chose to sleep in. once I tried winter camping, i was hooked.

I asked this once before, and I don't think I ever got a complete answer - anyway, I can't find the thread anymore, either....

I am looking for something in the training manuals or somewhere that specifically says WHO can administer the BSA swim test.

We have a boy who has everything completed for his First Class, except his BSA Swimmers test. He did attend two summer camps last summer (two weeks apart) and did NOT pass the test at the one I was at. He DID participate in a canoeing day trip at our council camp,(as part of the summer camp program) but says he doesn't think he did the swim test there (in a pool) either. I don't see how they could have let him go on a canoe trip WITHOUT passing the test, but it is possible someone goofed up.

He is a ninth grader who joined the troop late and is very gung ho to catch up with his classmates on rank - He didn't do much during 8th grade in scouts, but got his most of his tenderfoot at our first summer camp this summer. he has really pushed since summer camp to complete his tenderfoot, 2nd class and 1st class requirements in the last few months.

I admire his effort to advance, but I don't think we should make it easy for him to get his swim test in, when everyone else had to do it at camp each summer. Personally, I prefer to have the boys do this at camp, under certified instructors. they are absolutely impartial in their testing, and a boy can try as often as he likes to pass the test, and get qualified help if they need it. He did have two weeks at camp and has not been swimming or practising since them - so why should he be able to pass it now? For that matter, he made no attempt to work on his swimming at either camp - it's only the fact that this requirement is holding him back that he is interested now. (I know this boy personally, he is a good friend of my son's - and he is not a good swimmer)

he is getting mixed answers from the leaders of our troop - and one adult who has taken Red Cross lifesaving (but not passed it) has offered to take him & any other boy (with parents) to a private swim club pool and administer the test. this adult is a new leader in our troop and doesn't have much, if any, training. his reasoning is that if it's not an official BSA or troop outing

the Boy's handbook simply says they must pass the test and what the requirments of the test are.

Safe Swim Defense gives guidlelines for safely setting up and monitoring a safe swimming area and they 'strongly reccommend' a BSA certified lifeguard - but they don't say a thing pertaining to advancement requirements and/or instruction.

I DO have my Safe Swim and Safety Afloat cert's. If I can get a solid answer, I am willing to go along and provide the 2nd part of 2 deep leadership.

But I can't get this leader to understand that it isn't simply completeing a 'requirement' - like tying a knot or planning a meal. this requirement has no room for error. This is one requirement I am very strongly opinionated about - the BSA swim test -to me -is a benchmark for a STRONG swimmer. One that is usually used as a cutoff for boys to be allowed to participate in Canoeing in our troop. If they are not, at a minimum, STRONG swimmers, they are a danger to themselves and to the other boys on a canoe trip.

So what is the answer?

laura

I have taken New leader Essentials,SM/ASM training, Outdoor Leader Skills, Committee challenge and various other training programs (YP, Safe Swim, safety afloat, and skills classes) offered by my council and district - everything, essentially, that was available to me except Woodbadge, which I haven't been able to arrange yet.

That being said, the 'training' is only as good as the trainers and my ability to follow them. Some of my 'trainers' have been more interested in reminising about the past than teaching present skills - and others have been bvery good - but I may not 'get' all that some are trying to cram in my head. I never was a very good student....

but i do READ everything I can get my hands on. I do get frustrated with BSA communication - they seem to cover the same things over and over - and all very vaguely - they are not very specific. Consolodating it ALL - it all SOUNDS really good - and with INDIVIDUAL BOYS - one on one - or very small groups - I can see that the techniques should work.

but I have seen the most trained, responsible, mature boys - fall totally backwards in their 'leadership' when faced with biggest force in any teen's life -

PEER PRESSURE

the scout books/training tend to just gloss over that one, and it's a biggie! oh - they cover resisting Drugs and reporting sexual harrasment and the hard stuff - the big black and white things - but the minor things and grey areas they don't touch. A GROUP of boys behaves differently than an individual boy will.

I was a weird kid - I LIKED scouting, I GOT the idea that taking adult resposibilities earned me adult priveledges - I was one of those kids who thought responsibility was FUN.

I think we have ONE of those in my troop.

the rest would rather roast hot dogs and marshmallows for every campout and play touch football all day and night - rather than Plan, organize, work on advancements and do 'chores'. Everything is "NOW" - every single one reminds me of my ADD son - they never think ahead - only about RIGHT NOW.

I'm TRYING, and so are the other leaders to let them

make their own mistakes and hopefully LEARN from them - but the BOYS are so entrenched in just 'playing' that they never think of the things they did wrong - like forgetting the dishes needed to cook the meal - and they are STILL turning to the adults and saying stuff like Mr M? when is dinner? What do we do now? "mrs T? have you seen my sweater/sleeping bag/ hat?" Mr's J? where's the pancake mix? frying pan? spatula? Even when our answers are non-commital - "did you ask the SPL?""where did YOU leave them? or go ask SPL / PL / Cook" - they continue to turn to the adults.

when they DO have major blunders - they don't seem to correct them next time, either. I can't tell you how many times they have tried to have three patrols split the same dutch oven...

I must be taking the wrong courses, because NOTHING I have taken in scouting is teaching me HOW to teach leadership - most of my 'training classes' have concentrated on paperwork, job descriptions and skills.

One of the big things, which someone else mentioned, is that most of our boys don't WANT to lead - they see it as a chore and a headache. and when they DO elect a leader - it is always by popularity rather than skill, training or ability.

Of the things you mentioned, Bob - I can see three that we do NOT have available or are doing -

#4 monthly leadership training of PL's and SPL. I would have no idea how to do this, and I don't know if Our SM has plans for this - I will ask him - I can see where it would help.

# 7. find an experienced scouter (who understands the program) to mentor you for a year. We have ONE over -experienced scouter who is 'old school' and who people tread carefully around. she is elderly and Ill, and people are reluctant to make waves. Even if she were NOT there, I doubt we could find anyone else to step in and help, as many of the troops in our area seem to have the same problems.

8. With the committee select and recruit two or three ASMs to help, insist they attend training then give them specific tasks to work on to allow you the time you need to do the job of SM. We DO have two or three TRAINED ASM's, and a few untrained ones, who are not interested in training further. We are working on recruiting more help from parents - but it is tough - most want to come along on a strictly 'chaperone' basis and do not want to get into the 'program', we WANT & encourage the parents to come, but some have been detrimental - they don't want to follow the rules and behave like scouts, from major to minor problems -we have had fights with other campers in a campground, to pop and radios along on campouts (we don't allow the boys these things, so why should the adults have them?)

I know that things that interest ME - reading and discussing, trying to research and figure out what makes people tick and how they work together would bore the boys to tears.

so how do we teach them teamwork and leadership in ACTION rather than lectures?

WE had a disastrous result when we attempted to have a NSP of all just crossed over 11 yr olds, and let them elect their own leader.

Granted, that the ONLY thing we did correctly (by the book) was to establish the patrol & let them elect their own leader (by popularity, they don't have a clue). Everything else WE screwed up on.

We assigned a TG to the patrol - but having never HAD a NSP or TG before, no one had a clue what he was supposed to do, and he acted (sometimes) more like an instructor than a TG. he would step in and 'teach' skills for advancement work, but never got into the 'leadership coaching' aspect. He didn't actulally stay with the patrol much. The TG had never been a PL himself, and no one tried to 'train' him in his job.

We were short ASM's and had a new SM as well, and there was no ASM assigned to the NSP.

I think the NSP PL is supposed to switch each month, giving everyong a try at it? we didn't do that, either.

Our NSP consisted of 3 boys from one pack, 4 from a second pack and 1 from a third. the 4 picked their buddy for PL and all of them ganged up on the single boy and picked on him. This teasing was hidden from the adults, and culminated in a full blown hazing incident at camp, which involved the camp director, our council and district.

After the hazing at camp, The SM and committee decided to break up the 11 yr olds, and split them between the two regular patrols - a few boys in the reg. patrols moved up to the venture patrol - so all 3 patrols are now 7 or 8 boys, plus SPL and ASPL. Despite discussion about chosing a PL based on skill and experience, the 'weight' of these 11 yr olds again reared it's head - elections in those two regular patrols were again skewed by the 'majority' of 11 yr olds - 4 in each - who again voted their 'buddies' into PL positions by popularity. so now we have 11 yr/6th grade/tenderfeet leading patrols with some 13/14 yr old/8th grade/1st class, in them. Both patrol leaders are tenderfeet! One chose his older brother as APL (the brother wasn't even there for the election meeting) and the other one chose the 8th grade runner up. As you can guess, the 8th grade APL's are doing the work while the tenderfeet get the title.

the 7th/8th graders IN these new patrols are resentfull and uncoopertive, being 'lead' by a boy younger and less experienced.

Over and over we have had discussions about leadership, teasing, planning - and the 6th graders are still acting like wild Webelos whose leaders is out for coffee! they are WILD. Cub scouts doesn't do ANYTHING to prepare them for the huge difference between cub scouts and boy scouts - they are totally unprepared to self lead and really have no interest ing 'leading', although some do like to 'boss'!

I know that WE, as adult leaders, messed up by not following the plan, and not providing the 11 yr olds with the leadership they needed. but I truly beleive that even if we had, that of this group of boys, not ONE has the ability and maturity to to be even a slightly effective PL.

I can understand the 'idea' of a NSP - having them all work on advancements together, etc - concentrating their first year on advancement - but in practice, you MUST have well trained and mature boy leadership to guide them, AND and exactly the right adult(s) ASM (s) to assist.

Our troop, having just struggled to return to boy lead and STILL struggling with it - was not prepared to use the NSP effectively. Instead, it set our troop backwards from our goal of being boy lead - because of the camp fiasco, many of the boys families would have taken them out of the troop, had we NOT dissolved the NSP. As it is, our troop is still somewhat shaky from scars that incident left behind.

If you have a well established, well trained, boy lead troop, With enough older TG's, etc to help the new patrol along - then it probably works great. If not - all you get is webelos without an adult leader - total chaos!

Y'know, the real world of scouting is seldom made up of the extremes you guys like to use as examples.

Either perfect troops that have well trained & experienced adults who simply chaperone and advise, and boys who have been taught from the first and brought up thru the ranks to lead themselves - nor are all all troops run poorly by adult heavy-handedness.

Although my experience with our troop leans toward the latter, some of us are trying to change it - and we periodically fall backwards. We're far from perfect - i suspect more troops are like ours than are like the

'ideal' boy-led troop.

First, you put alot of weight on the SM to 'teach' the boys to 'lead themselves'. I'm not gonna knock our SM - he's a great guy and is doing his very best, he was the best choice we had and I will stand behind him 110%. but holding him or any SM responsible for training an entire troop of untrained boys all at once is an overwhelming task and it isn't going to happen overnight or even in a year.

Expecting 11, 12 and 13 yr olds, to join together to elect leadership and organize, cooperate, plan,etc under those circumstances is unreasonable. When left to their own devices it is total chaos. Elections are popularity contests, duty rosters are resisted. Planning for activities gets bogged down in minor bickering and side issues unless there is a strong influence to bring things back on track. Giving them some adult guidance helps, yet we are trying to support without specifically 'telling' them what to do or taking over. We tend to use the 'questions' mentioned earlier, or re-directing by mentioning time or goals when they get sidetracked. if the adults in our troop stepped out of the picture and left the boys to their own devices - they would never accomplish anything. about half the boys would get disgusted and leave, and the other half would still come to meetings just to goof off with their friends.

We HAVE boys who have been to weeklong JLT - even a few who have been JLT staffers. yet i don't see this training 'trickling down' to our first-year scouts, who are the wildest bunch I have yet come across. Instead, I see this larger group of first-years 'silliness' pulling the just slightly older boys BACKWARDS!

so how can you expect ONE new SM, fresh off the training table - to turn this pack of wild kids into leaders? he can't be everywhere at once. the only way i can see is for him to work as a team with his ASM's and have them work with the patrols.

I DO believe the kids CAN learn to lead themselves, I have seen it happen, but i have also seen minor setbacks completely throw off otherwise good leadership, and have seen poor attitudes eat away at leadership attempts. It takes TIME to build the skills and abilities consistantly and I haven't met an 11 yr old yet that can be that consistant and responsible.

So when you do NOT have the established program and youth leadership built into your troop - how do you GET there, without adult help?

We just had a district camporee that had a 'Merit Badge Midway'

the theme of the camporee was 'Backpacking' and troops were requested to leave their trailers and heavy equipment behind - everything had to be treked in from the parking lot.

We still had alot of wagons and dolly's, but the boys did pack up all their stuff and carry it all in backpacks.

They set up an area that had counselors manning it to cover 'paperwork' requirements in Camping, Hiking, Backpacking, Pioneering and Orienteering. they did not try to do the entire badges, but rather to give the boys a start on them with skill areas that were easy to set up and work in a few hours or part of a day. They had no intention of completeing an entire badge - as many of these had requirements that could not be completed in one day - long hikes, extra nights of camping, etc.

To me, this especially worked as many of the younger scouts are interested in camporee /patrol competitions, but the older ones sometimes get bored with doing the same knot tying relays, axe throwing contests, and string burning competitions year after year.

As a counselor for the 'camping' badge - I was asked to help out in the camping area - as they were woefully shorthanded. they had a good plan, but not enough people to man the station. they had the worksheets so they could fill out the straight question and answer stuff, an area set up for the boys to see and use topographical maps of the area, another to bring their backpacks and bedding for checking and to make up a ground bed, etc. they just didn't have enough adults counselors to man the badge area and check work.

It also helped that some boys who HAD started the badge and brought trop records showing nights of camping or a long backpacking trip, could finish up their badge there, without having to track down a badge counselor. (Badge counselor lists in our area are way outdated and it's sometimes tough to find counselors for some badges)

But I would make sure that you have LOTS of counselors/ help on hand. Merit Badge opportunities in group situations in our area have always been more popular than expected when set up.

this is a two-part problem -

First, the scouts are not being sufficiently taught the skills, and two - the BOR should NOT be re-testing, that is not the purpose of a BOR.

Regarding the first problem, one way to is to start following the teaching method of

LEARN

DO

TEACH

Most people only want to do the first two. In cub scouts, they get into a habit of getting 'signed off' on a requirement by simply 'doing' it - they are not required to 'master' the skill.

Once they get into boy scouts, they should really KNOW the skill - well enough to use it without prompts or hints or peeking at the book first when being 'tested' by the instructor or SM.

instructors should not be signing off on a requirement the same night they teach it. they should give instruction, help and practice time, then have the boys who are learning, teach the next group the next week. Giving the boy the responsibility of 'teaching' the skill, causes him to put more effort into learning it, so that he can teach it to someone else. then your older boys can choose to sign off when the boy either exhibits teaching ability or enough skill to do the skill without prompts or aids.

The BOR is not supposed to 'test'. they are supposed to talk to the scout and find out about his experience with the troop, what he feels he is accomplishing and learning, how scouting affects him and how he affects the troop, what his goals are, etc. the COMMITTEE members that conduct the BOR usually are not involved in teaching skills or testing for them. Perhaps the name Board of REVIEW gives them the wrong impression - but they are supposed to review the 'experience' of the scout not test specific skills.

you are correct - over the ENTIRE COURSE of a scouts carreer - there is something seriously wrong if they can't get 20 nights of camping in roughly 7 yrs of scouts.

But -

There are 12 eagle required badges that need to be earned in stages across a scouts rank advancement - he can't wait to get all of them just before he turns 18 and gets his Eagle - he has to earn so many for each advancement in rank to Star, Life and Eagle. Most boys want to start on some of them before they hit First Class.

Camping is actually one of the easier ones, except for the 20 night requirement - and I have no problem with it taking a couple of years to get there - I don't expect a boy to get it in his first year - especially as I believe the whole POINT of the badge is to expose a boy to varied camping experiences and skills.

BUT - we admitedly had a major handicap in the adult leadership of our troop - not providing enough overnights and when they DID do overnights - doing only one night campouts and cabin camping. If a boy missed a few outings (which happens to even dedicated scouts - my son had to spend weekends with his Dad he would rather spend camping) some of our boys were getting only 4-6 nights a year besides summer camp.

I felt that this was a lack on the part of our TROOP LEADERSHIP - and have made progress in changing it. Through pointing out the problem to the PLC, we now do more two night campouts, and the new SM and ASM's are trying to promote patrol campouts as well.

However, we also have a new Venture crew (who's camping nights should also count toward the badge) and a couple of families that are avid canoe campers/ backpackers on their own. I felt that if THE NUMBER OF NIGHTS ALONE was preventing those boys from completeing the badge,(IE that they had completed the other requirements or were making good progress on those requirements) that it was fair to give them credit for their family camping/ venture crew/ other camping.

the new boys coming up in our troop will not have this problem - with two night campouts - when they get to the point of wanting to work on this badge, (a couple of years in) they should already have enough 'nights' to their records that the goal doesn't seem so impossible to them. But it bothered me ALOT that the boys in our troop who HAD reached First Class and Star rank, been in 3-4 summers & had actually been pretty active in the troop, were really surprized that they had not accumulated anywhere near the required number of nights - because THE TROOP had limited their opportunities (in my eyes).

As an example - our just turned 16 yr old JASM / Life scout, been SPL twice and almost done with his Eagle has 6 sessions of summer camp and 2 JLT camps in 5 years, 67 total nights - but only 22 nights that 'count' toward the badge right now. And he wouldn't have that many if we hadn't changed to two night campouts this summer.

Just by adding two night campouts, once a month since May 2003-(and no troop camp in July, as we went to two summer camps that month) the TROOP has added 10 possible nights of camping. That's almost double our past YEARLY average.

I have a 50's crafstman circular saw and a drill that belonged to my grandfather.... They weigh a TON - metal casings instead of plastic - but work great! I have many of my grandfather's hand tools as well - a large wooden level, wood handled screwdrivers. Also a crowbar and a measuring rod that belonged to my great-grandfather - that I don't quite know what to do with, but I keep for sentimental reasons.

I have a Mirro aluminum nesting cookset that my family bought in the 1960's - that I still take along on every scout & family campout. (good thing, too - as the boys are always forgetting enough pots!)

My Boy Scout jacknife - bought when I was in grade school - and a GIRL scout! LOL!

Also a string hammock I have had since I was kid - and the boys still love using it at campouts...

My first basic Sears Kenmore sewing machine - bought in college - my niece has it down at college with her right now.

A kenmore gas dryer, that was inherited with our first house and was probably 20 yrs old when we got it. lasted another 15 yrs and 3 moves.

Laura

I DO wear my 'full uniform' - including uniform pants - though I had to buy them too big in spots and alter them to fit.... they are still of a cut and style to point up the worst in middle-aged body shapes....

And Bob - I never said I thought National didn't make them available.....

I certainly realize that 'demand' is what makes the local scout shops carry certain items, and even determines the stock of our council office - if there isn't adequate turnover, then it's not worth wasting shelf space on.

Catalogue shopping is not something people who are not a 'standard' size like to do. by experience, it usually doesn't work and costs a fortune in shipping fees.

For example, I prefer the long-sleeved shirts, and our local stores usually only carry the short-sleeve ones. But at least I can try on the short sleeve version and then order in the proper size, the long sleeved one from the catalogue - KNOWING that it will fit correctly. The stores here don't carry ANY pants in stock to try on - except maybe children's sizes at summer camp time. Even the council office only has the new style - not the 'dress' or wool or whatever else might be available. And the ones I bought at the council office were large size and around $45? even at that I had to alter them and they're still look horrible. I usually don't spend that kind of money for dress slacks for work!

But if you turn it around - 'Demand' is showing that for every couple dozen uniform shirts (at a guess, maybe more) only 1 pair of pants is being sold - then there is something wrong with the uniform. I haven't seen much objection in our area to families and adults buying the shirts, neckercheifs, badge sashes, hats, belts, jackknifes, books - all kinds of BSA things that ARE stocked in the stores and are therefore 'moving' off the shelves.

When a clothing manufacturer makes an error in sizing, style and cut - you will often see these items discounted at lot-buying stores and the manufacturer does not repeat the mistake and try to force the public into buying ill-fitting things - so why doesn't BSA take a hint and realize that the uniform pants are a bust? and come up with something more commonly appealing?

Did'ja ever notice how many different people wear blue jeans? Why not khaki green blue jeans? they would certainly be more durable for the outdoor wear we scouts put the uniforms through - and would fit and appeal to many more people!!

Wow - what novel idea, a uniform that people might actually WANT to wear because it is comfortable and suitable for it's intended use!

that's a great idea to leave specific time openm for patrol outings.... i think I'm going to mention that to our SPL and ASPL....

We've been trying to encourage patrol outings - but we have also either had the whole troop jump on the bandwagon or had them peter out from lack of commitment or time constraints.

"I don't understand why people who will pay $75 for a replica Michael Jordan shirt balk at wearing a Scout uniform. "

maybe for the same reason you don't wear the official uniform pants -

if someone elects to buy and expensive sport shirt - it probably fits in an acceptably comfortable and fashionable manner....

But why does BSA have to make those darn uniform pants look SO BAD? I swear even skinny people look bad in them.... and since most SM's and ASM's I know (male AND female) carry a few extra pounds - Well, most of them look like sausage stuffing hanging out of the casing - kinda gross....

Also - the shirts are usually available in a variety of sizes, male and female, in most local stores that carry scout stuff. But the pants are not as popular - even in kids sizes - and are often available only at the council trading post or thru the catalogue - and most people that have fit problems usually so NOT shop by catalogue - as the return/exchange postage and time is prohibative.

If BSA REALLY wants scouts and scouters to wear the WHOLE uniform - maybe they should take a look at WHO is wearing it? and make it fit better and more available?