LauraT7

Think of it this way -

If he is wearing his uniform - FULL uniform with badge sash - then he has his Eagle rank patch and all the badges that show he has earned additional palms....

If he is an young adult or leader (moved up in the troop) and wears his square knot, he can wear the palms on it -

if he wears/ displays the Eagle ribbon, the palms go on it...

any of the above three ways show what he has accomplished - right?

in addition to having til age 18 to finish, if a boy starts a badge and they change the requirements before he finishes it - he has the choice of finishing under the old requirements OR the new requirements.

personally, I think that is WHY the badge is worded to count only ONE week of long-term camp - that and the fact that even if you use your own tents at summer camp - you are only putting them up and taking them down once during the whole week - usually.

One of our council camps has platform tents for the scouts, and one does not. We have only gone to the camp that uses the platform tents once, and many of the boys chose to pitch their own tents, anyway (no mosquito netting in the platform tents)

I think the INTENT of the 20 night requirement is for the boys to have the full experience of that many nights of being self- sufficient - pitching a tent and cooking meals - and while they don't always do those things every day at summer camp - they are learning other valuble nuances of camping - by 'living' in the outdoors that you don't get from 'weekend' camping - such as dealing with cleanliness of person and clothes, managing their activities, getting enough sleep, eating right without mom making them eat their veggies, etc.

i guess i wouldn't want to see a boy get his camping badge based ONLY on weekend campouts, either - different types of camping provide different learning experiences - I think the variety is important.

__________

As for my original question - I have solicited a few other adults in our troop to be camping counselors, as well - and we've discussed it and decided that we are going to try and keep it to counting 'troop' campouts.

there was a problem with a large group of boys in our troop who had been in many years and the 1 night campouts and LACK of qualifying campouts that the troop did had them short of the necessary nights - they had completed the badge requirements and were just waiting to accumulate enough nights to finish the badge - I felt we were almost holding them back because of a lack of camping opportunity provided by the troop.

But we have changed to doing more two night campouts, and added some patrol outings, so the boys are accumulating 'nights' faster. Also - because boys and adults have now been made aware of the problem - we are seeing more of an effort by the boys to make overnights - even if they have to join us AFTER their soccer game, etc.

however, the other camping counselors and i agreed that we would consider family camping on a case-by-case basis. With the requirement that any family trips considered should be mentioned to the counselor BEFORE they are counted in - and AFTER the badge has been started. They can't go back and count the family vacation two years prior to starting the badge.... Chances are - the families that DO camp outside of scouting, are the ones that camp WITH the troop as well, and the boys would be heavily involved in setting up and planning the family trips as well.

so that is our 'unofficial' decision for our troop.

patrol or troop activities:

a 'crash' campout - their plane has crashed and they have to make do until rescue with limited items - no tents - tarps/ make own shelters, limited/odd foods, utensils, etc.

a sample cooking weekend/ day/ meeting - try as many different recipies and cooking methods as you can come up with - sample them all.

Bike trails - all over - look up 'rails to trails', and state park info, local bike shops and biking clubs.

take advantage of locally planned events - our county conservation district has a re-enacted pioneer encampment each fall - they call it the 'Trail of History' great for skills, lashing, pioneeering, matchless firestarting, metal working, carving, burned out canoes, different foods, nature lore, history, etc.

Conservation dist also does night hikes, canoe trips, nature walks, service projects, cross country skiing, snowshoeing, Maple syrup tapping, all kinds of great stuff. Colleges and park districts are other good local resources.

local climbing walls - parks or do you have Galyan's stores? lots of sporting goods stores will run events you can tap... archery, climbing, canoeing... they also have great resources for local camping and events.

hiking - do some of your compass work and/or find someone with a GPS unit and go geo-cacheing. look up geo-cacheing and GPS on the internet and find local links to co-ordinates. this is where someone has planted some clues to find a 'cache' - usually some kind of container - you search it out, get the little prize inside and leave your own behind - something like a troop patch or trinket. lots of hiking and map work involved - great for local day trips.

Of course you can always plan an outing or weekend using badge requirements as a guideline for your activities.

Don't forget recruiting! plan an activity - like a fishing derby at a local pond - or ice skating, the cooking sample is a good one,- where you can invite Webelos to participate!

Set up a swim nite at a local indoor hotel, high school or health club pool during the winter ( make sure to follow safe swim guides!)

do a 'lock-in' at a local school, community center or church for your annual planning meeting, badgework, or just for movie night and popcorn!

Have a day/ weekend to build a Klondike sled, patrol box, equipment storage in your CO,or other stuff the troop needs ( don't let the grownups have all the fun of building - kids LOVE tools)

Volunteer the troop to help set up/ run/ take down a cub packs pinewood derby.

Museum overnights - we have spent the night in the Chicago Shedd Aquarium, a WWII submarine, and other museums often have overnight programs - many specifically geared to scouts and badgework - the NASA space center in Alabama, many government centers, have such programs.

Also - most military bases allow scouts to camp on their grounds, and some open barracks and food services to them.

'Adopt a highway' program - and ongoing service project where you keep a local road or highway clear of trash on a regular basis. they will also post a sign advertising that your troop maintains that stretch of road - good PR!

have one patrol set up the directions and coordinates for a 5 mile compass hike in a local park - thereafter, any boy(s) needing that requirement can do it without having to 'wait' for a troop/ patrol hiking opportunity. they can go out with family or a buddy and do it on their own or as a patrol activity. We set one up where at various points, they have to answer a question - like what color is the house you are facing? what kind of tree is at this checkpoint? There is an object to measure in front of you - what is it and what is it's approximate height? how wide is the water in front of you?, etc. We also included the opportunity to identify 10 plants in this 'hike' as reference points, to complete another advancement requirement.

Our troop has canoes, and we have been encouraging their use -

for 'training' we had a 'canoe olympics' weekend - where we had a pond at a local conservation dist site set up with obstacles and games in the canoes that taught teamwork and manuvering skills - instead of aimless lake paddling. things like an obstacle course, canoe tug of war, a blindfolded paddle (paddlers were blindfolded, middle rider could see and had to direct them in a figure 8)

Recently we did a short/ easy trip on the Wisconsin river and camped on the sandbars ans slept under the stars - AWESOME.

working up to a boundary waters trip next year....

There is just not enough YEARS in scouting to do all the fun stuff I can think up.....

to steal a phrase from another scouter....

I LOVE this scouting stuff!

laura

Hey!

That's not a bad price for a great old movie! it should be a real hit with the boys at the church lock-ins we sometimes do... I'm gonna order one for us - thanks for the info!

laura

Burnout is a tough issue - what is 'too much' for one kid might not be 'enough' for another....

In 6th grade, my son was being 'burned out' by school alone. he was not in much else - confirmation, a weekly visit with his Dad and every other weekend at their house - which was extremely stressfull - but we had no control over that at the time.

But jr high was a real trial for him, and scouting, (badgework, rank advancements) at that point, just seemed like more schoolwork. so we made an agreement - i would not ask him to do ANYTHING in scouting, except to go on some of the trips he liked and show up at regular meetings - and in a year, after 6th grade was over, we would re- evaluate. The agreement also included that if he DID decide to quit Scouts - that he would choose another extra-curricular activity - he could not just sit home and watch TV and play video games...

He did not advance at all that year - he did CHOOSE to go to a merit badge college that met 3 saturdays that spring, and he earned 4 badges - which surprised me. But most of the troop was going, and he wanted to be with his friends, the badges were incidental - and FUN.

At the end of the year, he decided to stay on - he goes in spurts - sometimes interested in advancement & badges, and sometimes not. But he's happy and ENJOYS his time in scouting. He might make Eagle, and he might not - I don't think he even realizes the things he has learned and how he has matured because of scouting - Scouting has just become a part of who he IS. and isn't that the whole point?

There will always be those who NEVER 'get' Scouting - those who want the accolades and awards so they can 'prove' what they have accomplished. so they can make one more 'mark' on their ladder to 'success'. Anyone likes to be recognised & rewarded for the work they have done, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Being an "Eagle" is not just skills learned and a checklist of duties and projects - it's about the CHARACTER created while getting there. and character, as a slippery intangible, is difficult to define and test - especially to those who don't HAVE much 'character'!

Getting the 'Eagle' shows that you followed the directions and can work on a goal : that you met the minimum standards - much like getting a college degree. But what you did to get there and what you do with it afterwards, shows what kind of person you REALLY are. On the face of it, your Diploma doesn't say whether you were top of your class or barely passed - The 'extras' that people often get along with their Eagle rank are not guaranteed and differ from troop, district, council and state. So no one is 'entitled' to anything extra - those are given from the heart - and must be EARNED by heart and character.

As for his participation - I would not push too hard, nor 'punish' him for lack of leadership or participation. I would require that anyone going on a trip be there for the planning, though - simple sense - everyone must carry their own weight. You may see him go through a phase of disinterest and make a comeback - he can always work on Eagle palms, or help with other's eagle projects - or he may just want to 'hang out' with his friends - nothing wrong with that, either. but i would not want to be the one to cut that possible tie - if he's under 18, he still has a chance to be a REAL 'Eagle' someday.

PS -

i never heard of Eagles getting a 'flag' - is this something that is commonly done? is it from the US government, State office or president's office or what? I'd be interested in finding out and following up on it for one of our recent Eagles, and for the four we have currently working ont their projects. sounds like a nice touch...

could you e-mail me any info/ contacts you have on how to do this?

tlaurat7@hotmail.com

Laura

I'm an "old girl scout", too - and have often lamented that BSA officially or unofficially does not encourage "patch jackets"

As the boys go into Boy Scouts, from Cubs - they drop the red vests and have NO place to display their patches (though they CAN wear them into boy Scouts - I've never seen even ONE boy do so - Red vests are considered to be a 'Cub' thing here)

The red vest was originally a local choice, picked up across the nation and adopted by BSA into the program officially.

In Boy Scouts, some moms make the boys a 'patch blanket' as someone above mentioned. I've also seen patches sewn on sleeping bag covers - but they get pretty dirty there.

Some older scouts and adults put patches on their red jac-shirts - but those are awfully expensive for a boy who will outgrow it shortly, and officially - there are limits as to what you can put on them.

i really don't see why someone ( US????) doesn't start a grass - roots trend toward patch jackets. I'd be willing to bet that BSA would not object....

As mentioned above with the blanket, and as a past girl scout with a completely covered jacket - I can attest that my jacket brought alot of conversation and interest in the girl scout program I was in. Why hide them in a bedroom???? Get them OUT THERE where they can provide a means for the boys to share their experiences & adventures with other scouts and non-scouts!

In addition, I have noticed that when we go somewhere in the summer, and boys are all wearing uniforms or troop t-shirts, we are 'recognised' and treated with a certain respect as scouts. If each troop had a jacket - say all of the same color - it would be a way to 'identify' as a group in cooler weather as a scouting group.

Sadly, I know that the majority of patches given to our boys are lost in drawers at home, and never used anywhere. Most could not even FIND their patches if they wanted to. It's a waste and a shame.

That's a GREAT idea!

My son's book is in pretty good shape because we've always had it in a cover and he DOES take it everywhere - but we have some boys in the troop who have only had their books for a year or two and they are almost destroyed.

I really like the covers because they can keep a pen and some paper (badge cards, etc) stored in the flap - a cover protects the page edges, too - which a spiral won't. but some people just don't like covers. No matter how much I encourage them to get covers from the start - some people are really resistant.

I don't know the prices off the top of my head - but I'd be willing to bet that a cover is cheaper than a new book -

and that having an old book 'bound' like this is also cheaper than buying a new book

I wouldn't be surprised if taking a brand new, regular book and having it bound that way, right away, is cheaper than buying the new BSA issued spiral bound books - aren't they about $20?

It just goes to show what a little 'outside the box' thinking can do....

way to go!

We just had an eagle COH of one of our boys - who is 17 - "Mike". His brother "Dave", age 14 -is in the same troop.

I know that prior to getting his Eagle, there was some mix-up between our council records and the troop records - he had all his ranks and badges - but somehow the council didn't have everything - I think one rank was somehow "missing"? and it took some straightening out.

There was a table at his COH with memorabilia - photos, books, etc - and he had all of his badge cards - I noticed one in particular, "Lifesaving", that at first I thought someone had put in the wrong book - because it was made out to "David" - then i realized by the date on it that someone must've written the wrong name - the younger boy would have been a cub that year, and not a scout.

This name mix-up has happened before in our troop, at summer camp and in district Merit Badge classes where brothers have both participated. As a counselor - I attempt to avoid name errors by making THE BOY fill out the badge card. I only fill out my contact info before I hand them back. I won't sign a card that is not completely filled out.

I guess it is reasonable to expect the boys and families to keep their OWN records and backup documents (good prep for future home record-keeping) But the reality is that unless the parents help them, few boys would be able to lay hands on ALL their scouting documentation and materials after 6-7 yrs in scouts. Boys just don't think about that stuff. I have a scrapbook started for my son - but believe me - HE would never keep it up on his own. Even with me trying to keep track of things, we did once wash a set in his uniform shirt pockets - they aren't very readable - but I DID save them anyway. (I wonder if i should try to get the troop to re-print the record cards? would it make a difference in the future?) I'm not too worried about those, because they were from an Advancement chair in our troop who was very methodical and whose records' accuracy you could swear on. unfortunately, not all our Advancement Chairs have been so good at the job.

We tell our boys that their handbook is THE most important record - and they DO all pretty much keep up with them. But many are in very poor shape, bindings broken, dirty and torn. What if a boy DOES lose his book or it is destroyed? then he MUST depend on troop or council records.

How about the records with the counselor? do they ever go back to them?

I have kept the counselor record of every boy I've ever signed off on - I'm kinda proud of that growing stack of blue cards - it's reminder of years of building relationships with those boys - esp those in my troop. they are a part of MY 'memory book'.

Ah....

but you've got something cool to start his 'scouting' scrapbook with!

Well, our troop is S-l-o-w about some things - but I guess I'M his 'advisor' for this one -

We have started collecting all the photos we have (scattered all over the house) and putting them in a box to be sorted. /the other night the committee approved the purchase of some albums and materials for them and gave us the key to the cabinets so he can start sorting thru the historical photos and documents the troop has for the scrapbooks (the troop is 85 yrs old and we have some great old memorabilia)

We recently had an Eagle COH for one of our boys - and started an Eagle plaque donated by our CO church - Jon has notified the local papers what we are looking for any past Eagles from our troop to get their info on the plaque - since the council records aren't so great in the far past - we figure a local city approach might help.

At the moment the big concentration is on a district camporee this weekend - but I suppose he'll work in spurts on his 'projects', depending on his school stuff and what's going on in scouts....

but in the plans - along with the 'albums' - Jon will do a 'display case' at the church - and possibly one at the local library. part of his 'duties' is to go thru the 2 large cabinets we have at the church that have alot of old awards, ribbons, plaques, books and paraphanalia from years past - so he should find plenty of interesting stuff to work with...

We'll get more into it after this campout is out of the way, though...

thanks for asking about him!

Well, our troop is S-l-o-w about some things - but I guess I'M his 'advisor' for this one -

We have started collecting all the photos we have (scattered all over the house) and putting them in a box to be sorted. /the other night the committee approved the purchase of some albums and materials for them and gave us the key to the cabinets so he can start sorting thru the historical photos and documents the troop has for the scrapbooks (the troop is 85 yrs old and we have some great old memorabilia)

We recently had an Eagle COH for one of our boys - and started an Eagle plaque donated by our CO church - Jon has notified the local papers what we are looking for any past Eagles from our troop to get their info on the plaque - since the council records aren't so great in the far past - we figure a local city approach might help.

At the moment the big concentration is on a district camporee this weekend - but I suppose he'll work in spurts on his 'projects', depending on his school stuff and what's going on in scouts....

but in the plans - along with the 'albums' - Jon will do a 'display case' at the church - and possibly one at the local library. part of his 'duties' is to go thru the 2 large cabinets we have at the church that have alot of old awards, ribbons, plaques, books and paraphanalia from years past - so he should find plenty of interesting stuff to work with...

We'll get more into it after this campout is out of the way, though...

Where can we see what is available in patrol patches? I looked in the catalogue, and they don't show them there...

We have always used the same patrol names because the troop had a large supply of certain patrol patches - Indian, Viking, Eagle and Wolf - but the boys want their OWN patrol names (which i think is great!) and we have to get new patches. However, the boys don't know what is available and the adults don't know where to look for them....

Suggestions?

Dan - I can think of another - actually two - who this would be an option for:

the single mom who has no tools or woodworking abilities, yet her son wants to participate -

or a couple of my den boys, who lived in apartments and parents had no tools, skills or place to build one.

I haven't seen these pre- built cars - but are they painted and everything? Ready to run as is? I could see one that was worked, but had to be painted. this would be something to appeal to those who did not have the woodworking skills and tools to participate - to simply assemble and paint a car. of course, i doubt they would EVER win anything -

Of course, I'm an odd mom anyway - I LOVE power tools and wood refinishing and home improvement projects - My son and I bought our Dremel mostly to use on the derby cars. I don't have a workshop as fancy as TwoCubDads - But what tools and knowledge we had, we invited and shared with many of the parents and boys in our den. Mostly boys...

It was sad that many parents could not (or would not) take the time to do this with their boys - even when I offered the use of my basement, garage and tools.

I got to help MANY boys build their cars and we had a ball doing it!

Pinewood derby started my son on an interest in tools and woodworking - and he is more adept with tools than most boys of his age, even now. He really got into the science of 'speed' in the cars, and less on beauty - but he won a few trophies and even got to regionals once. His cars will probably always hold a place of honor and cherished memories for him - for both of us.

It's a shame some parents choose to miss out on that ...

yes, it is HIS choice -

But sometimes kids need guidance in making those choices.

since you communicate so well with us - I hope you can communicate so well with your son - have you talked to him so frankly?

Often kids get stuck or bored - or other interests pull him away - and that's OK. for some boys, the 'laid out' program of rank advancements is manageable enough - but taking the final step to plan and execute an Eagle project is just beyond them. they may need maturity, or ideas, or some kind of nudge - or just time.... But he needs to be able to make an INFORMED choice - not just let it slide away.

he DOES have time - but often, once they turn 16 and get Job's, cars ans girlfriends, fitting in an Eagle project gets much tougher.

I'd sit down and lay it all out on the line for him - some things may not have occurred to him, or he may not be thinking that far ahead - I know my son, at 13, has truble thinking about next week - much less what he's going to plan to accomplish before he turns 16 or 18...

Don't ask him for a decision - but ask him to think of the options and possibilities. Be open to pick up the discussion anytime - be encouraging.

My son also hit a point in advancement where he was not progressing - he had other, weighty things going on at the time - so we agreed to call a halt to advancement and badgework and just have fun. If, at a future time he wanted to quit scouting (which would have upset me, but i would live with) i did expect him to chose something else of value to pursue outside of school. He's too smart to waste time twiddling his thumbs in front of video games all the time.

If, after thoughtful consideration, OJ chooses to not go for his Eagle, I think you are right that it's should be his choice. But it's only right for BOTH of you to explore all options, throughout his remaining time - before deciding.

parenthood is tough - but I bet he'll decide to go for it - either way, will be a better person for making the decision in his own time and choosing.

I have seen these at summer camp, too - wish we had one -

One good tip is to take COLORED duct tape and mark the poles with it - color match the joints for assembly - makes assembling them go much faster.

We don't have that kind of tent - we have the big CANVAS with WOOD poles kind of tent - two of them. one is red and about 12 X 20 and the other one is larger - tho I have never seen it. Both have optional walls, and use huge stakes and guy lines (good opportunity for the boys to use those knots!)

the canvas parts have bags, but the poles we just stack up.

One thing we do with the big tents though - is to rent them out - for parties, weddings, church activities - we get $150 for the red one and $175 for the Yellow&White one - and it's quite a big fundraiser for our troop. Since we include putting them up - they are a better deal than renting one from one of those rental places.

Sounds like a great idea, Charity -

I wouldn't mind having one of those for OUR parents!

laura

Mark -

you are right, we're not talking a legal commitment here - but I think the ADULTS, while holding a scout accountable to his word, also need to get a commitment from the parents on a big trip like this.

Still, I've seen times when even the PARENTS make a big commitment ( like summer camp) and then back out because of something trivial.

in this case, tho - I think I can picture what happened - a Kid really wants to go - but his parents aren't communicating and he can't get an answer from them, or maybe he's afraid to even ask. Originally, when asked if he wanted to go, he told everyone, "yes" - as the time for money and a second "hard" commitment came, he either let it slide or was afraid to tell the SM (who sounds like a rather forceful and possibly intimidating personality) that it wasn't possible for him to go. The boy may have even held out a faint hope that some miracle might occur to allow him to go - his parents reconcile, one of them might pay for it, he might get a great job, etc.

sometimes stress shows up as denial. Especially in kids facing a hard decision - they shove it away rather than deal with it upfront.

Like Eamonn said - we have to remember that as mature as the boys can be, they are still kids, and are still learning. I'm sure he's 'learned' from this experience - do we have to make it even tougher for him?

Chicken in a backpack?

this is one I haven't heard..... how?

Scoutnut is right - this is not the boy's fault or his problem -

it is a problem designed for trouble by the SM and possibly, other adults.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but What I "hear" from above is this:

-SM wants a certain kind of trek

-this choice of trek eliminates some of the boys who would otherwise go

- SM is trying to hold one, or more, boys to their verbal interest in a trip as if the BOY had the legal right to decide and commit. The boys are minors, and legally have no right to commit themselves without parental approval.

-SM or other leadership authorised charging this boy for a serious financial commitment without parental authorization or even the boys' knowing about it.

-SM then publicly let this boys' financial and family problems be known, and berated the boy publicly for a situation outside of the boy's knowledge.

Couple of things to consider:

In one or two years, many things can happen. What if some boy gets a broken leg or his family gets transferred and he can't go? is this the BOY's Fault? should that boy be penalized? No more is it this boy's fault that his parents are thinking more of themselves and their divorce, than of their boy right now. It's sad, but very common - that many divorced couples cannot put their own mess aside for their kids. Been there, done that.

As for him getting a job - Heck, I can't get a job and I have a college degree and skills! These are tough financial times - his family situation makes it worse. Don't kick a guy when he is down - it's not very scout-like!

A boy's account should NEVER be "overdrawn" if he does not have funds to cover events, something should be said TO HIS PARENTS the minute he gets close. if he needs financial assistance, it should be discussed THEN. not AFTER he 'owes' money. Boy scout Treasurers should not have to be creditors, too.

Any financial expenditures over a typical troop or patrol campout cost, should be acknowledged and approved by a parent before it is considered a commiment. the boy should be informed of ANY withdrawl from the boy's troop account. I know this is not a legal contract - still - a person under 18 cannot MAKE a contract in most states - so your 'agreement' for these kinds of trips should be with the parents, who have the legal right to control the activities of their child - no matter how 'mature' and responsible that child may be. If the troop chooses to let the boys make their own financial decision on regular campouts, that is fine - and if the troop loses by it - well, you takes your risks. at least a campout is not an expensive learning experience. But dealing with third parties should teach you something - Philmont, Summer camps, trek programs - require contracts signed by LEGAL ADULTS - not 16 yr old boys, even if they ARE responsible or Eagle scouts.

-would a les strenuous trek involve MORE boys? is THIS trek truly the BOYS choice? if it is not, and you still have time - I urge you to change it to the trek the most BOYS in the troop want. This sounds like the SM wanted a trek in Philmont, and he is looking to fill out the trip HE wants to go on. That Ain't scouting!

FatOldGuy -

i agree - with both of your comments - I don't think even that many iron their uniform pants - EVER - nor should they have to - the newer pants are a perma-press fabric - for at least a season or so, depending on how ofen you use them - they should show some kind of crease line for awhile. Permapress will not give you a SHARP crease - - but hey, if you really want a sharp crease, why not stitch it down?

In the older pants, which were styled more like men's dress slacks - a crease made more sense. but I doubt even then they were ironed much.

As a well-padded person myself, i also don't like hems and zippers encircling & digging into my thigh - which is why the Zippers i choose are softer, more flexible zippers. Still, it's more than NOT having them there. The other thing that helps is to have them low - mine are barely above my knee - where I don't have pressure from 'sitting' on them and where they have a little more 'ease' room.

Depending on the zipper chosen - there is alot of variety available - if you look. My son has a pair of zip offs - NOT for scouts - just a pair of sweatpant material pants with zip off legs - but the zippers are so stiff they look like hula hoops around his skinny legs! But he likes them, and the kids wear them at school - so hey, as long as he's clean and neat - i choose my battles - i'm not going to nitpick because I think they are goofy-looking!

I can't quote you book and page number, but I believe it's against BSA policy for 'troops' and packs to OWN things because they are not a legal entity and can't therefore, enter into a legal contract - to purchase or liscence something like a vehicle.

Although the government allows you to title anything in almost any name - they apparently don't check to see if it's a 'real' business that 'owns' it.

If the troop trailer rolls out of it's parking place in the SM's backyard and flattens the neighbor's above ground pool, which floods into the other neighbor's basement and knock out power for the whole neighborhood - who are they going to sue? the SM? the Troop? BSA? none are going to want to claim responsibility and most do not have the ability to pay for the damage.

you need to avoid the 'grey' area of the CO 'owning' the troop, which in turn, 'owns' the equipment.

it is for these and other reasons that our troop has been changing over the "ownership" name and address on all our vehicles to that of the our CO church, as they come up for renewal. the equipment will and has outlasted many troop scouters, boys & church ministers & staff. (our CO is a methodist church)

that comment would have NEVER come up in our troop.

most of you know me well enough by now to know that i am a VERY involved and active Scouting mom.

But then, my son would not have CHOOSEN a troop that wanted to exclude me or other women. and despite my close relationship and understandable influence on my son - it was HIS choice. If he had choosen a more exclusively male troop, I would have gotten involved in something else, I guess. But he enjoys my company and that of other adults - male, female older, younger - he's been raised participating in activities with a large variety of adults and families - so he expects that.

Personally, I see that as a lack in those all male troops - To me, it's kind of like putting blinders on the kids - cutting off the resources and experiences moms could bring to the troop - but that is THEIR choice to limit themselves that way.

If you have a truly boy run troop - it would be wrong, if not difficult, to say 'hey, we're GOING to have a family campout with moms & sibs' you would certainly be better served to 'sell' the idea to the boys and PLC. Kids can get just as obstinate and entrenched in traditions than adults - sometimes more so - and many really don't like change. Especially if the SPL and ASPL have been camping for years WITHOUT moms. It may have been a knee-jerk reaction to the idea and it's delivery as an almost accomplished plan.

You might get a better reception to suggest it as a new activity for the younger patrols - Give them a chance to show Mom, Dad and younger siblings what they've learned. And the younger boys aren't so entrenched in the 'no mom's idea.

if they want to do mostly male exclusive outings, thats fine - but to include families a few times a year is a GOOD thing, and should be encouraged.

my son has been appointed 'Troop Historian'

in our troop - that position means nothing - it's never been defined. but I think Jon can make it his own - we have discussed it briefly in light of two things: First Jon and I both like photography, so we take many photos of the troop in action - which I've posted on the web site, but never got around to putting in an album. Second, Jon's Grandma is into scrapbooking - He really likes all her 'tools' and is very creative. We've talked about him making a scrapbook for the troop - which he could do as part of his 'Historian' position.

if he can DO something with this position, I think it will help convince the boys in the troop that he IS capable of more.

however, we would be open to other suggestions as responsibilities of the job - as no one in our troop ever had a clue as to what to do with it?

what do other "historians" do for their troops?

yes - the meeting Sat WAS with the SM advising the SPL and ASPL on the choices for troop positions.

Scoutmom - my son is named Jon, also! and we tried for a 'troop guide' position - as he naturally helps the younger ones both in and out of scouting - with his social skills, he relates better with those younger than he is. But though the SM approved his BEING a troop guide - the troop leadership ( boys) never acknowledged it by having him DO anything with the younger boys. In fact, unknown to us - someone organized a NSP weekend to work on advancements before summer camp - which would have been a great thing to include Jon on - but they never told him about it or invited him to come.

he did help many of the younger boys at summer camp this summer with advancements and badgework - we were severly understaffed, I was Acting SM and no one noticed his mentorship in the midst of all our other problems at camp.

One thing i HAVE to point out - we had a REALLY tough week at camp this summer. not enough leaders, too many 5th graders - a lousy weather/camp situation that wrecked morale. From all the other boys, it was "have you seen my shirt/hat/ book/ raincoat? do you have a pen/ paper/ book i can 'borrow'? I forgot mine. i lost my badge card again, can I have another? When is my class? my towel is wet - i left it on the line - do you have ne i can use?" I felt like the little old lady in the shoe..... with 21 children

my Jon's Scout Spirit REALLY shone through it all. made me see how much his scouting experience is shaping him and how much he has internalized of the program and attitude. I was SO PROUD of him! his stuff was always together, he ALWAYS had his fanny pack with paper, pens, badge cards and raincoat with him - completed all his commiments for badge classes, hopper duty and patrol duty on his own. his tent was neat, he kept all his stuff dry, & he did not loose ONE THING all week at camp! And every time i looked around, he was quietly helping some kid fix his bike, showing someone how to find badge books and materials, teaching a knot, fixing a tent, picking up the site - without ONE REMINDER! I don't know where he pulled all that from - except that we are very close, and he knew i was having a hard time keeping the whole troop together and that was his way of helping me. Plus he has been raised with good camping habits & scouting values since the age of 3, it's gotta sink in eventually. Believe me, I NOTICED, and i made sure to quietly acknowledge and reward his personal responsibility and his help with the troop. he was AWESOME. Unfortunatly, the only other leader was too occupied with other things to notice, and I guess the older boys were, too. As the leader, I didn't think pointing Jon's favorable attitude would be taken well, in contrast to THEIR poor attitudes & behavior were at camp. So I kept it between me and Jon.

But I can brag freely to YOU! LOL! Any parent of an ADDer will know what a huge accomplishment a whole week of that behavior was for Jon. Sure - summer camp is Jon's best element anyway - but I'm so proud of him I could BUST!

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As for the POR - appointments were posted on the troop website today - so I know ( but Jon doesn't) that he has been appointed 'Troop Historian'

in our troop - that position means nothing - it's never been defined. but I think Jon can make it his own - we have discussed it briefly in light of two things: First Jon and I both like photography, so we take many photos of the troop in action - which I've posted on the web site, but never got around to putting in an album. Second, Jon's Grandma is into scrapbooking - and Jon has been helping her make an album of our trip south this last spring. He really likes all her 'tools' and is very creative. We've talked about him making a scrapbook for the troop - which he could do as part of his 'Historian' position.

if he can turn this into something, I think it will help convince the boys in the troop that he IS capable of more.

however, we would be open to other suggestions as responsibilities of the job - as no one in our troop ever had a clue as to what to do.