LauraT7

Someone on the board - a month or so ago, did a post about making a suggested list for their SCOUTS - I thought it was a pretty good idea and 'borrowed it' and started a suggested 'wish list' for our boys on our troop site.

While I am having a tough time getting families and boys to actually POST on our site - the boys did tell me many things they would like and I added them. I also included links to websites and info that many places give scout discounts. It became obvious that troop families DO check it, because I got quite a few comments - all good, and actually, as we have been encouraging extended family (grandparents, aunts & uncles) to join our site, they have found the lists helpful too!

We are about to head out on a winter campout next weekend, with about 20 of our 26 boys (the highest turnout we've ever had for a winter campout) and from what I have heard from the boys, many got new camping gear for Christmas and are really excited about it!

A few got winter sleeping bags, liners, and packs. lots of mess kits, cold weather wear, lightweight equipment. it's really neat to see the boys excited about something other than the latest Playstation game!

_________________

As for me - we don't exchange gifts among the adults in our family - so I got from my son, exactly what I wanted - a router attachment for my Dremel! (we are planning some building projects this spring)

Jon is already pretty well equipped, but he did get some new winter gear, (gloves, thermal socks, snow pants with cargo pockets, a non-battery flashlight and a LED headlamp) mostly because I found some good sales - and he's growing like he drinks Miracle-gro every night! I'm always seeing his ankles and wrists hanging out of everything before they are hardly worn!

it was a fun Christmas!

Saw this on another site, and it tickled my funny bone -

site is http://www.sftcbsa.org/humor/ if you want to check it out - more where this came from....

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You might be taking your scouting too serious if:

You buy that '89 Chevy Caprice because you really like that fleur di lis hood ornament.

Your favorite color is "olive drab".

You decide to lash together the new deck on the back of your house.

You plan to serve foil meals at your next dinner party.

You walk the streets in broad daylight with a coffee cup and flashlight hanging from your belt.

You raise your hand in the scout sign at a heated business meeting.

You were arrested by airport security because you wouldn't give up your official BSA pocket knife until the cop said "thank you".

You didn't mind losing power to your house for three days.

Your son hides his copy of Boy's life from you.

Your plans for remodeling the bathroom include digging the hole deeper.

You trade your 25 foot center console fishing boat in on that great little `15 foot canoe.

Your favorite movie is "Follow Me Boys" staring Fred MacMurry, and you spent months trying to convince Disney to release it on home video.

You managed to find that 8th day in the week.

Your patron saint is Ward Cleaver.

You disconnect the automatic dishwasher in favor of the "3 pot method."

You sneak a cup of "bug juice" after the troop turns in for the night.

You can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together.

Latrines at camp start becoming comfortable.

You felt you won a moral victory when BSA brought back knee socks

You think campaign hats are cool.

You gave your wife a mummy bag rated for -15 deg F for Christmas.

You name one of your kids Baden.

Your favorite tune is "Camp Granada" (hello mudda.....hello fadda) by Allen Sherman.

You can recite the 12 points of the Scout Law backwards, in order, in 3 seconds flat.

You bought 10,000 shares of Coleman stock on an inside tip they were about to release a microwave accessory for their camp stove line.

You can't eat eggs anymore unless they are cooked in a zip-locked bag.

You plan to get rich by writing a best selling Dutch Oven cook book.

You took a chemistry course at the local college to help you develop a better fire starter.

You actually own a left-handed smoke shifter.

The height of your social season is the district recognition dinner.

A trip to Philmont is a pilgramage.

Your are convinced the center of the universe is Irving, Texas.

The sales operators at the BSA distribution Center's 800 number recognize your voice.

Singing "Scout Vespers" makes you cry uncontrollably.

You were disappointed when Scouting magazine didn't win the Pulitzer Prize last year.

FINALLY, you might be taking your scouting too seriously if: The Scouts in your troop chipped in to have you abducted by a professional cult de-programmer.

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Anyone have any to add?

I'm also against 'mock BORs'

BUT - I can and have seen some boys panic when they have to talk to a parent/ adult they don't know personally. Some take all 3 BOR's to FC before they can loose the sweaty palms and answer in more than 1 syllable words!!

I have especially noticed it in some boys when they have to 'contact' me for badge counseling. many kids in our society are discouraged from talking to strangers on the phone, or in person. We have answering machines and e-mail, and other than teachers, (who are a different thing entirely) many kids have no real experience talking to adults who are not relatives or well-known family friends. REAlly!

Actually, when I was on the committee and a badge counseler, the Badge counseling made my BOR job less frightening to the boys - because many got a chance to know me before their BOR - when they got there, I was already a somewhat familiar face. It helps to be a counselor for some common badges.

(And recruiting committee members for badge counseling is a great way to get some help in those areas, anyway!)

Maybe that is the key - perhaps with that first group of new BOY SCOUTS (not webelos) - you could have some kind of ice breaker with the committe members who sit boards? or you could make sure that at least one parent of a boys closest buddy sits on his first few boards? (a parent he already knows). You might even do a 'mock' BOR for the SCOUTS, AFTER they have crossed over, before they get their tenderfoot. ( a BOR is NOT required for Scout rank) Do one with a few Committee members and ALL the 'scouts' together. There is safety in numbers!

It really, REALLY helps if your committee KNOWS that they are NOT there to re-test the boy or grill him. Sit in a 'round table' setting or a casual group - NOT in a line behind a table like a group of judges! Stand up and greet him by name, introduce him to the BOR members and SHAKE HIS HAND (scout handshake). In body language, these things put him on a more equal footing with with the adults and will make him more comfortable. Make sure the BOR staff is TRAINED and prepared - perhaps with a sample list of questions and the boys advancement record before the boy walks in. Ask him SPECIFIC, open ended questions, and not questions he can answer with "yes" or "no". Things like "I heard you went on the Winter campout and it snowed - how did you manage to keep warm?" or "I see you took Canoeing this summer at camp - tell me about your tip test? Was it fun? or did you eat seaweed?" LAUGH WITH HIM!

2003 Thorns and roses - a good post to reflect upon for the new year!

Troop and Scout thorns & roses-

We lost a wonderful and dedicated scouter to a brain tumor this spring - Scot Mansfield was a true 'gift' to the boys in our troop; always able to relate to them, a true friend and mentor to so many. Taken long before we were ready to let him go, he's flying with the Eagles now! Scot, you are always with us on every campout and event - we miss you tremendously, friend!

We had a hazing incident at camp that we thought was a 'thorn' but that turned out to be a 'rose'! the problems were not that serious, but gave both the leadership and the boys a much needed 'wake up' call, and the troop is tighter and stronger for the challenges they faced.

A rose - we got a new SM for the troop that is a true gem - one who puts the BOYS first and guides with a strong hand and good heart.

A rose: In Scot's memory, the boys have started an annual campout in Scot's honor. Participation in the campout has to be EARNED by participation in specific activities that were Scot's particular favorites - Astronomy, Pioneering, nature and wilderness skills, among others. This annual event will help keep Scot's legacy alive for new and old scouts alike.

Personal?

thorns - being unemployed for almost a year should qualify....

Roses - because I wasn't working anyway, I drove my mom and son down to Florida to see my mom's sister. Since they are both in their 80's, and both my dad and uncle have died since they last saw each other, this was something I could do for my mom that was priceless to her.

Roses - unemployment means I had the time to finish LOTS of unfinished home improvement projects! Painting, drywall, plumbing, electrical, refinishing - If I can't get a job in lending, I can always hire out as a handy-woman!

laura

our council was a test pilot for a new recruiting program this year for Cub Scouting - and by all accounts, it was a HUGE success - check with the pros- but I think I heard something about it being initiated thru National in the next year or so -

Basically, the program is called " My best friend is a Scout" and it recruited across ALL age groups on a simple one-on-one basis. I believe the packs came up with activities of interest that the boys could invite a non-scout friend to, periodically throughout the year - in addition to their regular fall/spring school recruitment /parent information nights.

As I am in Boy Scouts and out of the 'Cub' info circle I didn't get alot of the details on the program. What I DO know is that we are a LARGE council, covering most of Northern IL and some of WI - we have everything from rural to inner city youth - and our Cub program has 1/4 of ALL grade school age boys within the council in Cubs. That sounds like a pretty good reach to me!

If you are interested in finding out more, you may try to contact Blackhawk council at

Blackhawk Area Council, BSA

PO Box 4085

Rockford, IL 61110-4085

Telephone: 815-397-0210

the website is kinda mixed up right now - but it is usually http://www.blackhawkscouting.org/ but I looked and there isn't anything on it about the cub recruiting program, still you may be able to reach a council exec by e-mail.

laura

you didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway -

I'm in favor of ANYTHING that gets leaders and boys effective training, safety checks and safety gear.

If there is something in flag raising that could cause injury, then yes, they should be properly trained and supplied with safety equipment.

There was a boy killed two summers ago by a downed tree limb while sleeping in his tent at one of our camps. It was a TRUE accident - not a dead limb, the tent was not in a bad location, the camp was very well maintained. Our troop had been in almost the same site the week before - no 'training' or safety precautions could have protected the boy in that instance.

But Firearms are part of the 'romance' of many camps - esp Black powder. and there are many things which can be done to reduce their known dangers. Addmittedly, I know very little about firearms. Which is why you will NEVER find ME shooting off a cannon at camp! Even with a helmet!

Boys OR Adults, no matter how well trained, make errors. It only makes sense to have training, safety gear, and a back up person to double check every step. If there had been a back up person, better training or saftey helmet - they might have caught the overload or reduced the injury and that young man might still be alive.

do YOU want to explain to the parents of a boy in YOUR troop that he was allowed to overload a firearm in YOUR presence and it blew up in his face, because YOU think safety precautions are silly?

I sure don't!

And if so, I'm glad YOU are not in OUR troop!

laura

Hmmm - someone said something earlier about how Lill didn't 'dissasociate' hersoef from being a scouter or was 'hypocritical' of her scouting beliefs....

Excuse me if i am misquoting, but I think that was the general idea, anyway....

AlthoughI have been a Boy Scout leader (and prior to that a cub leader) for only a relatively few years - I was RAISED in scouting. Girl Scouts, and in an area that did alot of camping and had a program much like Boy Scouts, apparently. 'Scouting' is an indelible part of my SOUL. Good or bad, I can't really separate some of the beliefs and habits Scouting has taught me, from ME.

I started passing these beliefs and habits on to my son - not JUST through camping & outdoor education, but that was a big part of his 'lessons' from the time he was a toddler. He is also so indelibly a 'Scout' that it would be difficult to separate his own beliefs and habits from those of scouting.

However, that does not mean that either of us always live up to the Goal of the Oath and Law. We are, after all, human.

the Oath says, "On my honor, I will DO MY BEST..." to me, that means I will try my best to live up to the standards, and that if I (or any of the boys) stumble and fail, that we will continue to 'do our best' and try again.

How could Lill, being the kind of scouter and person that she is, separate herself from scouting in order to play this game? How could YOU do it?

With the temptation of winning that kind of money, going thru that extreme kind of situation, hardship and difficulty, would YOU really have been able to ALWAYS live by the Scout Law?

she didn't lie to hurt people, she didn't steal, she had no plans to sabatage those left behind if/when she was voted off....

When dealing with people who admitedly have NO scruples at all, and knowing that this IS a GAME and that no one is going to be permanently harmed or hurt, would you have been able to take the 'high road' and be scouting's shining example and loose early? or would you also be tempted to 'bend' your high values a little for the game?

Remember, she has kids in college to pay for, too!

if it were YOU - what would YOU have done? Could/would YOU deny that scouting is a huge part of your life in order to play the game? or would you live your Scouting life and end up bending like Lilly did?

laura

Found this and thought it was a great idea to share...

When "performing" ceremonies at your Pack meeting, you need to remember to view it as if you were an 8 or 9-year-old boy. Remember to add a little magic and mystery and you'll have meaning, symbolism and interest wrapped up into one ceremony that can be prepared in 5 minutes using common household items,

that will astound and amaze your boys. Water is poured into a glass and turns yellow, if the Scout has a truly sunny disposition. When poured into a second glass, it turns green to represent his love of the outdoors. And when poured into a third, changes to blue to indicate that he is a "true blue" Cub Scout and worth of earning his rank.

Set-Up:

Tell participants that you have some water that was

collected from a special place in the forest, a Scout camp etc. Tell them it is alive with the spirits of Scouting, the woods or animals and will react in the presence of boys that are deserving of their next rank. If they are ready, the water will go from being clear to yellow, yellow to green and green to blue.

Materials:

Yellow and green food coloring

Water

4 tall clear glasses

Liquid bleach

Bleach is a poison and can cause skin and eye irritation. Do not drink the solution or get it on your uniform or clothes.

The Secret: Place one drop of yellow food coloring in the bottom of one glass, one drop of green food coloring in the bottom of the second glass and a teaspoon of bleach in the other. Place the glasses so that the audience cannot see the advance preparations. Hold the glasses in such a way that your hand obscures the food coloring in the bottom. The food coloring may be allowed to dry.

Pour the water into the first glass and it will turn yellow on contact with the food coloring. Pour the contents into the second glass and the contents will turn green on contact with the green food coloring.

Ask the boys once again if they've completed all their

requirements and pour into the last glass containing bleach.

The bleach will slowly beach out the yellow food coloring, leaving blue behind. Note that this may take a few moments, and may give the boys a chance to reflect on their efforts.

The less bleach you use, the more slowly the color change will take place.

Over a period of 5-15 minutes, the blue will also be bleached out, leaving a progressively paler blue solution. Either remove the competed demonstration from view or explain that the spirits have left the glasses now that their job is done.

Test your formulation first, as different brands of food coloring may require more or less bleach to completely bleach out. This is a great "standby" ceremony to have in your back pocket in the event something else you have planned goes wrong, someone doesn't show up etc.

After your ceremony everyone is going to want to know the secret of how you did this. Tell them it was magic and a magician never tells how a trick is done, and leave it that way.

This ceremony came from Sue Carter, North Trails District Roundtable, Detroit Area Council.

I agree that the animosity should stop.

This IS a BOY SCOUT forum, and we should all behave on it as if the boys in our troops were hanging around the campfire, listening.

Many of us have actively pursued the opinions of the scouts/ youth on this board - like Hops and others. I have mentioned this site to my troops boys and know some of them read it, even if they don't post.

I do NOT agree that the fault is equally shared.

Our troop has gained ALOT from the posts here, and much of it from Bob White.

Bob White is a very experienced, well read and well trained scouter. He has a wide reach of BSA knowledge, materials and training literature. Everything he has ever posted in answer to my questions and comments has been TRUE to BSA issued information. It's just that he knows where to find it and I do not. Once in awhile he has misread or misunderstood a post or question and answered what he thought he read - which is something we all do sometimes. Bob White has a short and dry delivery style that sometime 'sounds' curt & turns people off. (he's not nearly as wordy as i am! LOL!)But that doesn't make him rude or argumentative, just efficient!

Bob has always behaved like a gentleman, though sometimes, like a gentleman pushed to the limit of his patience! Even gentlemen can only take so much!

On the other hand, While FOG has sometimes been entertaining, and he has interesting opinions - I have seldom, if ever, gotten any really useful advice or information from FOG's posts that could benefit myself or my troop. Once the feud with Bob started, FOG seemed to simply take delight in taking pot shots at Bob White, specifically. Once in awhile he will choose to aim his sharp tongue at someone else - but he always returns to Bob White. I enjoy a lively argument as much as the next person, and will be a devil's advocate myself at times - but I would never seek out a particular person as my target. Not only is it simply rude, but it's unbecoming of a Scout!

Somehow I picture FOG as being an older version of the somewhat insecure playground bully, searching the forum for someone to pounce on to make himself seem bigger. FOG has been rude, crude and just plain mean! You can disagree without behaving like a bully and a brat!

Really, FOG, would you be PROUD to show ALL of your posts to the boys in YOUR troop? Would you behave this way IN PERSON to another scouter in front of your troop's boys?

laura

Thanks all!

I agree that "The check should be done by the scouts if they are properly trained or supervised."

I also wish our adults did not have to be so involved in this - Problem is, even our older boys are NOT as knowledgable as they think they are (in some areas) - or as knowledgable as they SHOULD be. They KNOW this stuff as 'book learning' but haven't internalized it. Some of our Star and Life scouts are the very ones that have shown up outfitted incorrectly. And even though they toughed it out and insisted that they were "OK" - they are then setting a bad example for the younger boys.

In the last year, we have turned away from totally 'adult lead' troop to 'boy lead' - so actually we aren't that involved in this trip. But the boys are also not really used to planning ahead, and they resist it. heck, even many of our sdults resist it! The boys have planned the whole trip - the only thing I know about it is that I was asked to drive, so I know which camp we are using, and we've used it before, so I am familiar with the site. For all I know, other than making meals & setting up camp - we may spend the entire time playing cards - or they may have some kind of program planned.

another adult, our past SM who is now the Venture Crew leader, was asked by the PLC to 'give the talk' for the benefit of the newer scouts. I volunteered some personal equipment for the trip and the demo.

None of the boys going are first time campers, however; about half have never been camping after early October or before April in Northern Illinois. I want them to REALLY get this stuff early - so that when THEY are the Stars, Lifes, and SPL, they really DO know how to prep for such a trip and will be doing it all themselves and teaching it to the new, younger boys.

Besides, we have a family that has vacant forest land in WI where we can REALLY make a "rough it" camp someday and possibly do snow shelters. Some of the boys would really like to sleep in snow shelters, but to do that - they REALLY have to 'Be Prepared!" for the cold, wet weather!

1. FIND A JOB!

2. Find a job that allows time for Scouts.... I probably won't get to go to camp with the boys this summer! :-(

3. finish painting/ remodeling my house (but you know, it NEVER ends...)

4. Get out the old Pop-up camper - either use it or sell it!

5. Have a HUGE garage sale and get rid of all my junk!

6. Use the money from above garage sale to buy a new tent and camping gear.

7. Possibly go back to school for my Master's.

Our troop always does a winter campout. Last year they built their own shelters out of tarps - this year they are going to try and build shelters out of natural materials.

Every year, one of our experienced adults gives a talk on hypothermia, dressing for the weather, and how to suppliment your gear for the weather, etc. the older boys are doing a shelter demo and there will be equipment there to examine, suggested lists given out, etc.

On past trips, we have discussed having the boys bring their packs, packed and ready to go - to be checked by an experienced scout or adult, and have suggestions made. The troop and families DO have equipment available to borrow, If someone is Not properly equipped ( extra bags to layer, a clothing bank of cold weather clothes, etc.)

the problem is - though checking packs has been suggested, it NEVER comes to pass. Instead it is pushed off to the day of departure, boys are threatened with being left behind if they are unprepared, the boys show up, the packs never get checked because we are rushed to leave on time, and no one is actually sent home when they show up in canvas shoes!

(actually, the boys got lucky the last two years, we had unusually warm weather that weekend and no snow!)

In the past, our winter campout has HAD a shelter available. It's a really cool cabin, and we always end up with some boys giving up and using it.

BUT the point is to camp outside and get your 'Polar Bear' patch, and learn survival skills.

This year we have NOT asked the camp staff for the key to the cabin. there IS no 'retreat'. Today there is already snow on the ground - not much, but COLD.

there is a mandatory pre-campout meeting for the training above, scheduled 2 weeks before the trip, just before Christmas. doing inspections then would allow the boys 2 weeks to get or borrow any supplimental stuff they need over Christmas break. Originally this training was going to be earlier in Dec, but we could not get the speaker until the 22nd.

Our Jr. ASM and SPL don't want to bother with pack inspections at the mandatory pre- campout meeting. Basically, I think because the training meeting was pushed off so late, they don't want to spend any extra time doing it! they want to do 'pack inspections' the day we leave for the campout (which is a 3+ hr drive away). I and at least one other adult think this will just delay us and STILL will not make sure the boys are properly prepared.

We have quite a few boys who have never done this kind of camping, and those that have - often STILL don't pack properly. (the one with canvas shoes last year was our SPL at the time)

I ran this by my son (13 and FC, almost Star) and he agreed that a personal pack inspection 1 or 2 weeks before would 'teach' him much more than any lecture, and help him know exactly what was needed. Ha also said that there's nothing he would put in his pack, that he thought he would need during those two weeks, so he would probably just ADD to his pack and not totally re-pack it before the trip. He is typical of many of the boys his age, so I tend to trust his opinion on what works.

What would you do?

Would you push the pre-trip pack inspection to the PLC? (originally pack inspection was announced as Mandatory for trip participation - the SPL and JASM changed it when the date for the meeting was pushed into Christmas break)

would you simply offer it to those boys who wished to have their packs inspected?

or would you let it go, chalk it up to a learning experience and let them be cold?

laura

Ed -

you may have answered Bob White's question elsewhere, but since i didn't see it, i AM interested. If you don't use FC emphasis and NSP's how has the history of your troop retention and advancements gone?

I ask because our troop has been through alot of changes - traditionally they did NOT follow alot of the BSA suggested programming, yet because they did do some great high adventure programs (Dads planning great trips and taking the boys along) they generally maintained troop numbers. If the boys were interested, and pursued it TOTALLY on their own - there were opportunities for advancement. But most scouts aged out at Star or life. very few Eagles. Many boys transferred INTO the troop after getting much of their advancement elsewhere - just for the trips. Very few Webelos transferred.

We have changed all that - and last year we flopped miserably at NSP. 100% the fault of the adults, though. hopefully, we will try again this spring with the new recruits.

however, I AM interested in what worked for YOU - not using the NSP - in case our troop decides to not do NSP again.

laura

I can see a number of reasons to have 'extra' people as ASM's or Committee members.

We have a number of adults on our committe and a few as ASM's that serve as 'special consultants' for specific jobs.

We have two ASM's whose 'specialties' include one or more of the following: Biking, Canoeing, Backpacking, Survival skills, climbing, etc. These particular men are not really interested in teaching 5th graders first aid or how to tie knots at a weekly meeting. However, they are very important to our venture patrol and doing high adventure trips. They go along on the trips, teach seminars on preparation, and go on day trips to help prepare the boys. Next year we are going up to Boundary Waters - a trip that is not suitable for first year scouts who have never been in a canoe. However, having these trained adults, ALONG WITH a regular ASM or SM, and possibly some parents, leaves other, weekly attendance ASM's attend something locally with the younger boys to work on advancement and skills.

We have a few adults on our committee who seldom get involved in the troop activities. One might simply be our popcorn chair every year. Another has boys that are long out of the troop - but he owns farm property and allows us to store our vehicles and trailers there. he also helps maintain them and occasionally will show up at a committee meeting when something needs repairs. Many are newer parents recruited to sit boards of review - they are not quite ready to commit to a particular job on the committee, but we have found BOR's a good way to get parents interested and involved without scaring them off with too much responsibility, too fast. As their boys get comfortable with the troop in their first year - some move into more substantial committee jobs (and still sit BOR's) and others decide Scout leadership is not their cup of tea. but it's a great way to get to know the parents!

____________

As for your two troops, on Troop A, I would ask why are the boys leaving? are they going to another troop? or leaving scouts altogether? Is there an adult personality problem that is 'spoiling' the troop for everyone? what level of training do these adults have? are they USING it?

I also would find out WHY so many ASM's - do they have special duties? are they all active? If they don't have specific duties (and how could they? unless they were mixing committee jobs and SM jobs?) I would suggest that some of them move over to the committee and specifically take on some of those responsibilities. If they are ASM's because they LIKE to go camping with the boys - well, there's nothing that says committee members CAN'T chaperone troop outings.

with so few boys, they can't really use a NSP - but they can certainly offer advancement opportunities. My suspicion is that this troop is an family/ adult camping club and that the adults are looking for places to go and things to do that are entertaining - and while there ARE opportunities to work on advancement, they aren't taking advantage of them, nor are they teaching the boys to. Without a First Class emphasis, I'd bet the ONE boy who advanced some is either mature and organized for his age, or has a leader/parent checking up on him.

Troop B sounds like fun - Can I go back and be a Boy Scout with them? ;-)

do they have this plan written out? can I get a copy of it to show our PLC as an example? ;-)

you said the Troop camps 9 times a year plus summer camp and a igh adventure trip. Do they do patrol outings/ campouts? That would be about the only thing I could suggest. Sounds like a well planned program.

laura

Wingnut - I can beat your "trick' on your sister - MY big brother used to make me wrap my OWN presents! he would just put them in a plain box and tape it shut real tight all around, then stand there and WATCH me wrap it to make sure I didn't peek!

Other than that, and because he otherwise was a swell guy and he really WAS left-handed and all we had were righty scizzors, I didn't mind. I loved making pretty packages for under the tree. My older sister once worked in the gift wrapping dept for Marshall Fields and taught me all the tricks. Besides, in later years, I knew that in 'joint' presents from my older brother and sister - the dough usually came from Bruce, while the actual shopping was my sister's domain. They spoiled me and got me things Mom and Dad would NEVER have gotten me! LOL!

For those who ARE wrapping impaired - have none of you ever been in the military? Don't you know how to make a hospital corner on a bed? Wrapping a present is the same thing. And you can always BUY bows or use curling ribbon - very easy.

If that doesn't work - check around town - often bookstores, malls and other places have charities doing gift wrapping. You do NOT have to buy your gift there to have it wrapped there. The money from the wrapping goes to a charity, NOT to Walden Books or whatever. Of course, Walden books is hoping that providing a wrapping service will encourage you to purchase books for gifts - so grab one and add it to your pile. Don't you need another book on Knots? or survival camping? Dutch oven cooking? There might even be a book on 'Gift Wrapping for Dummies"!!!!!LOL!

laura

Lill ended up in the top two -

i missed the first hour, where they voted Dana off. Anybody know WHY? I felt sure the women were going to vote John off - unless, did he win the 2nd to last immunity?

Lill won the last immunity challenge, and got to pick who went to the end with her.

the immunity challenge itself was cool - because for once, she clearly had an advantage and she KNEW it. The challenge was to squat on a small float in the ocean using only hands and feet for balance. If knees or butt hit the surface -you were out. Lill had taken aerobics classes, and her ankles and knees were used to the necessary position. For hours, John BEGGED her to make a 'deal' with him - I think he knew that he was in trouble the whole time. Sandy dropped right away, but Jon held on - really having alot of trouble, pain and numbness.

she did have to 'play the game' and be deceitful to get to that point, and in the end - I think her uniform, her age, & her attempts to be 'kind' hurt her.

For one thing - Everyone, including us, held her to a higher standard because she was wearing that uniform. Many of the other contestants expressed an opinion that it was OK for THEMSELVES -an electrician, a lawyer, or anyone else to lie, manipulate and cheat - but not ok for a Scout or scouter to behave the same way - EVEN IN A NON SCOUT SETTING. I also got the impression that many were against her for the simple reason that she WAS in scouting - kind of a reverse snobbishness. It was as if they felt she was lording her scouting knowledge and experience over them, (which I don't feel she did) and instead, they took pleasure in putting her down simply because she was a scouter. She was definately the underdog.

Much like what some of our kids face in dealing with peers at school - something to keep in mind.

Her age hurt her, NOT because any less physically capable than some - she admitted things were tough and she was worn out - but many didn't work as hard as she did and complained more. No her age hurt her because of a generational gap. This 'game' had a preponderance of young people - under 30 yrs old, especially toward the end. and many people can't relate to someone more than a decade of difference in ages. I've seen this in all kinds of social groups myself - work, church, etc. 20 & 30 somethings, mostly - just have a real hard time truly making friends and socializing with other adults in their 40's 50's and older. They can treat them as alternate parents and grandparents - but NOT as peers.

Lill related better to 'some' of the younger players better than they did to her. But her age and uniform distanced her from the young players who were more self-absorbed & played politics more.

lastly, in the end, Lill choose her final alliance because if LILL didn't win, she felt Sandy, a young mom Lill could relate to - deserved the money more than some wild, beer drinking, partying overgrown teenager that was so foreign to Lill. of course, nobody like John anyway!

it was interesting to note, that AFTER the votes were tallied, and Sandy won - they asked the 'jury', "if it were a choice between Lill and John, which would they have chosen?" and had the choice been between Lill and John - Lilly would have won. a $900,000 choice!

laura

____________

anyway -

Our council doesn't have such rules limiting the number of badges you can counsel. BSA doesn't set a limit, so i don't see why a counsel, district or troop would override their decision.

there are many areas of knowledge cover more than a fixed number of badges - conservation and nature badges being a large area, for example.

There are also badges that aren't in high demand - I'm a counselor for Textiles, and in three years, no one has asked me about it, nor have I seen that badge on any badge sash. this gives me ample time to cover Photography, Pets, Dog Care, Communications and computers - as well as many others.

our District and council have been promising us a 'list of counselors' for years. they never seem to get their act together. From the old list available - we have a difficult time getting people - phone numbers have changed, people have died or moved, or they no longer have boys in scouting themselves and are no longer interested. So we made an effort to actively recruit adults and parents to be badge counselors. We also try to 'overlap' badges, having 2 or more counselors of specific badges so that we can share the load. We work mostly with our own troop - but ARE signed up with the council, and most of us would not turn down any boy that requested us. To make things easier for boys to finish up a badge - when I have signed off on something at a district or council event, summer camp, etc - I always write my e-mail and phone # on the blue card so boys can contact me to finish up later, if they are not in my troop.

As for the badge book being 'required' - they are NOT required, but they are very helpful. I especially find them useful on some of the badges that have not been recently updated. For example, Camping and Computers.

Most of the 'camping' book was written in the 70's and there is some outdated info in there - I could think of a number of different tent types, but would never, on my own, come up with the particular 5 they name. They also talk alot about Down fill bags - and for most of the boys, I would recommend synthetics, which have come a long way in 30 yrs!

the computers book - well, NO ONE can keep up with computers nowadays! But the Answers to the badge requirements still must be answered! We aren't allowed to add or change requirements, remember?

laura

I've missed alot of the shows, but I did catch it this week to note that Lill is STILL GOING ON!

It got down to 2 men and 3 women, and one of the women (not Lill) had won the 'immunity' the 3rd time running.

Lill's uniform still looks pretty good, though! Especially those pants! (course it's too hot to wear them most of the time!)

One of the guys, (who I got the impression, thought he was a shoe-in for the #1 spot) won a prize, and he took the other guy with him on a 'holiday'. that left the three gals together, and they got together and agreed to boot him out.

Lill acted as if she had 'given up' and wanted to go home. Boy, she looks tired and alot older! (sorry Lill! I would probably look worse, though!) But that may have been part of her 'act'.

The two guys voted her out, but the three women voted the guy out.

My guess is the end is going to be between the three women - and Lill looks to be the leader of the gang at the moment.

Anybody been following the whole thing?

_________________-

As for Lill's 'scoutlike' or 'unscoutlike' behavior, I don't think she has done anything that would keep me from wanting her as my son's SM. I think she's done pretty well.

I think people need to remember, that just becasue she is stuck WEARING her uniform for weeks on end, she is NOT at a scout activity, or really anything related to scouting - We think of her as "our representative"and cheer her on, just as we would cheer someone from our hometown, or a friend - but she IS an adult, and adults do have a beer, smoke a cigarette, swear when they are pissed, lie when necessary, etc. I myself, occasionally have a glass of wine or swear occasionally. I don't get drunk, and I make a concerted effort NOT to swear (but sometimes, I DO slip) I live in a small town - it is concievable that I might run into my troop's boys at some event with a glass of wine in my hand (I don't like beer - so I never drink it) Does that make me a BAD ASM?

I think all of us would agree that 'telling the truth' can be overrated and sometimes, hurtful. So ALWAYS telling the truth is not good, either. I'm not saying it's right to lie - but Lill is PLAYING A GAME. Just like chess - is it wrong to distract your opponent with an opening to your Queen so that you can check-mate his King? isn't strategical thinking part of the game?

Anyway - i'm going to try and watch it through to the end, now - I hope Lill makes it!

Whatever happens, she's already a winner in my book!

laura

Don't let other people make decisions for you.

Take all the advice, knowledge, research, information, etc that others give you - stir it up and think about it - and then make your OWN decisions.

no matter how much your parents, siblings, girl/boy friend, teachers, etc DO care about you and want to see you succeed - they are basing their opinions on THEIR lives and perspectives.

When all is said and done, they get to go back to their own lives, but YOU have to LIVE with the decision they influenced every minute of every day. forever.

along with keeping your own council on your own decisions, try as many things as possible while you are young and have few commitments to tie you down. Take opportunities while you can.

I don't mean stupid stuff like drugs and bungee jumping.

My niece, 22 yrs old, is teaching and going to school in Spain right now, and having the time of her life, learning the language, culture, and expanding her life and mind.

My best friend from high school, took a job teaching English in Cairo, Egypt right out of school. After that, she taught in Korea, then Japan, before returning to Milwaukee to get her Masters.

Right out of college, I was offered a Job demonstrating sewing machines for Pfaff. I would have gotten to travel all over the US and some world travel, too. One of the bonus' of the job was that I would be given the latest, top-of-the-line computerised machine to keep. (the sewers in the group know what a tempting deal that would be) I turned it down for nights at home in an efficiency apartment in Chicago with my fiance. BAD MOVE.

I should have taken the job.

While you have no spouse, kids, house, bills, etc to tie you down - GO FOR IT! whatever "IT" may be!

laura

A GREAT question!

I would tell her that her involvement in Scouting has been immensely valuble. Her Scouting experiences have served her well in almost everything she has done. So keep it up - ignore the people in school who think Scouts is for losers and DON'T drop out of working summer camp for ANY boy!

Boys are every bit as scared as you are.

Do NOT listen to your parents and older siblings when they tell you that you can't be a teacher (your grades aren't good enough), or a professional scout (not enough jobs), or go into social work (impractical)or psychology (to much school for you)or WHATEVER. They are practical, Grounded people, and they LOVE you - but they are NOT you!

Go for your dream, what ever it is, NOW!

Get and keep your OWN credit.

Appreciate your family - you are one of the lucky few to have a terrific, supportive family (even when you DON'T follow their direction!) - thank-yous and hugs cost little but are worth alot.

Stay active! your ability to eat anything and stay rail thin WILL end - Give up chocolate and take up jogging or biking or something!

Don't sell the house in Bloomingdale - keep it and rent it out!

BELIEVE what they say about retirement funds! START saving with your first job - it's much harder to put $ in there after you have a house, kid, and other bills!

laura

Mark, I'll give you extra points for the long reply -

Esp since it gave me some good ideas.

thanks

our troop has done both mixed and NSP. the NSP failed because WE (the adults and PLC) did not set it up correctly.

In the past, we got in 2-4 new scouts a year and blended them into the existing patrols. It was a bit of a challenge to keep up with some of their advancements and remember to provide opportunities FOR advancement. Lots of boys kind of slid through - they would 'hang' at tenderfoot or 2nd class through 2-3 COH's. often parents would bring to our attention that some boy who wasn't the organized type, was way behind. Not great - but we mostly stayed on top of things.

last year we worked at recruiting and got 10 new boys. We also had a new SM and lots of troop changes. We decided to do a NSP and try to do First Class / First Year.

What we DIDN'T do was:

Have a trained, skilled Troop guide work with them

Change patrol leaders monthly

have a specific ASM assigned to them.

have a program specifically PLANNED for them.

The boys came from different packs at different times over 3 months - it was crazy.

Essentially, we treated them exactly like an existing patrol, with no guidance, and they flopped - horribly. Not only because the boys had no leadership, but because the NS parents did not know the program, and while they tried to help, their help was inconsistant and operated like a cub den, when they did help.

you need a PLAN - to concentrate on introducing the boys to BOY Scout ways and advancement opportunities.

you need an ASM that already understands the troop and boy scout program as your troop delivers it.

you need to actively recruit parental help from the first year scouts.

you need a Boy Troop Guide who REALLY WANTS to work with the yonger scouts, and is TRAINED and SUPPORTED by the adults in the troop.

you need to rotate leadership so that all or most of the new boys get to attend a PLC, make decisions and lead. this also helps keep 'clicks' from forming and leadership advantages being taken.

-----------

after our blunder, which resulted in a hazing incident at camp this summer by our NSP, we dissolved the NSP and blended then into the two reg patrols. the Venture patrol remained - a few Star scouts moved into it.

but that isn't working, either. the New Scouts don't have the skills they should have been learning this year - and they outnumber the older scouts in those patrols. the effect was that at last election, the reg patrols now have 1st yr tenderfeet and 2nd class boys as PL and APL - elections were by popularity.

I think by next election, things will kind of balance out.

but I will be encouraging our troop to try NSP again, and do it RIGHT this time. to have a plan in place and people to guide it BEFORE the recruits show up.

It makes sense, and SHOULD work - IF you follow the plan.

Our intent is not to 'make it easy' to get to first class - but to provide enough opportunities that with reasonable participation, they can get there.

Only thing is - with only one spring and summer - say march to march - we are finding it difficult to schedule enough activities that cover everything and offer some repeats for missed events.

for example - we try to go to a corn maze every fall as a webelos recruiting activity and invite the webelos for the maxe and a campfire afterwards. the 8-10 mile layout and puzzle of the maze lends itself to the 5 mile compass hike requirement, and we orienteering training for it beforehand. If you miss this event, we also do one or two bike trips a year that can also cover this requirement - IF a boy remembers to bring the compass and DO it.

We also try to look at each outing, and make it known what requirements a boy CAN accomplish, if he makes the effort to let someone know what he needs to complete.

One thing we have difficulty doing is the BSA swim test - the only INDOOR pool in our area requires a RC lifeguard to use it - and we have had a hard time finding lifeguards. We mostly depend on Camp for this requirement. The city pool is only open memorial day to labor day and is seldom available for such a test, and again, requires that we provide a lifeguard.

We don't hand it to them, but we do point out and provide opportunities for specific, harder to accomplish advancement requirements.

Every year, however, we end up with one or two boys that get really discouraged because they just need 1 - 3 requirements to make 1st Class, and for some reason the troop puts on a big push for advancement in the slow meeting times in December & January, when the weather is raw, muddy and not amenable to nature and orienteering hikes. This is partially because some are pushing for those first year's to get their FC by Feb or March - 12 mos after they started, and the boys themselves haven't really 'tuned in' to the program until well into fall.

I think the time limit is too short, puts too much pressure on the boys and scheduling to get it all in. In addition, I think that this kind of 'pushing' for requirements means the boys actually LEARN and RETAIN less skills.

I also think the PLC does 'Advancement' at meetings because they can't think of anything better to do. 'Advancement' meetings consist of breaking into patrols or groups for a demonstration or work on a specific advancement skill with an older scout or ASM - say, knot tying or lashing or stoves - then testing for the skill and getting signed off. to me, this is a waste of time - it's like cub scouts - because they don't 'practice' the skills enough to really know them. (personally, I'm tough - if a boy has to show me the skill with his book in hand, open to the page, i won't sign off - he has to KNOW it) But it is an accepted way of working advancement in our troop at winter meetings, when they can't get outside (cold and dark) on a weeknight.

that extra 4 months allows for more duplicate opportunities of skills, in the field - and I think is better training and has better retention. But I am constantly being told 'First Class, first year' and 12 months is a 'year'.

I also have another question -

How do your troops handle the 4th requirement for FC? being "cheif cook" for their patrol for 3 meals? We find it difficult to have one boy cook all three at one campout, because it sticks the rest of his patrol with the grunt work for all meals. It's also directly opposite of a patrol duty roster's intent to rotate jobs. What we do is have a boy complete this requirement in 2-3 campouts, one meal at a time, not necessarily the one he planned and not necessarily on the same campout.

Is this pretty par for the course in other troops? how does your troop handle this requirement?

As a determined Tsunami starter myself, and having dealt with other adults who didn't go with the flow of the troop, I can empathise with both sides.

As the others have said, we need more info. the person MAY have some valid complaints, or may just be trying to throw weight around.

We had an ASM who was very valuble to the boys and our troop in skills and ability - however, she had a habit of making decisions without consulting the SM, Committee or other leaders. Stuff like; deciding to cancel an outing after the boys showed up, because 'only' 5 boys & 2 leaders 'wasn't enough. like signing the troop up for a labor-intensive, long-term fundraiser without consulting anyone else. (she and her son ended up providing ALL the labor.) She undermined the troop by cornering adults and asking them to 'vote' for a certain new SM by spreading untrue gossip about the current SM.

We tried giving her specific Duties, she took over other's jobs anyway. We tried talking to her, multiple times. it only pushed her to her underhanded tactics. Eventually, when the new SM was chosen, by our CC and CO and it was NOT her supported choice - she and her son went to another troop, with the SM she wanted.

it's actually kind of sad, as the new troop is an old fashioned male -run troop, and she is kept firmly out of any activities other than badge counseling and bake sales. Her son still attends school with our boys, and she still occasionally counsels certain badges for our boys, but her son has lost much interest in scouting and is not really active in his new troop. he is still friends with many of our scouts.

Also, YOU may not have seen the boy earn his 'Scout' rank - but if a boy has earned his Cub Scout "Arrow of Light" he has ALREADY COMPLETED his Scout Rank requirements, except, perhaps, for the SM Conference.

(Scout does not require a BOR)

If he is NOT a cub with Arrow of Light, or not a scout to start with - the Scout Rank is simple to earn and should be set up for the boys to earn in the first meetings.

You seldom get a boy that just 'shows up' and joins unannounced. Usually there is some contact with the boy and his family beforehand. A simple handout on the rank (given to the PARENTS) can assure that a boy comes prepared for his first SM conference at the first meeting.

_________________

As for what to look/ask for in a troop, you have parent questions and boy questions and they will differ greatly by the individual boy.

when you go shopping, do you just take whatever is offered on the store shelf? or do you research & educate yourself on your wants and needs BEFORE you hit the stores so that you don't end up with buyers remorse??

some only want to have a good time and go with their buddies - they will adapt readily to any troop structure as long as they have a good time.

others are guided by parents who want their boys to have more than a 'good time' they want their boys to learn values, leadership and other life skills from scouting. 11 yr old boys never think about this - if they mention it, it's because some adult influenced them.

some will be looking for an "Eagle mill" - some want a true BSA troop.

i would have the cub den, probably WITH parents - have a discussion on what kinds of things to look for. The boy and his Parents need to be clear on what THEY want, before they look at the troops.

You can educate them on the differences between BOY Scouts and CUB scouts. Most Cub families I have come across haven't a CLUE how very different BOy Scouting is. They need to be prepared - it's a totally different program. If you can - get a representative to come from Boy scouts - not to promote THEIR troop, but to explain the scouting program - how advancement works, what badge counselors are, how 'boy run' SHOULD work, what the patrol method is - etc. Educating the boys & parents will bring up questions that no one else can think of.

What activities do their boys like / dislike

how active does the boy want to be? meetings ans one weekend a month? every weekend? in between?

how involved do the parents want to be? not at all? in the background? upfront?

Is training of leaders important to them?

if they become involved are they willing to train?

Is the boy going to be on his own? or will the family support his scout 'homework' (badges, advancement, service)

Will the family support fundraising efforts for the Boy himself and the troop?

will the boy be uniformed and supplied properly? or will he need help?

how important is rank advancement to the boy?

to the parent?

same question for badgework?

How serious are they about Scouting? is it a priority? or is it going to take a back seat to every other sports/school/church event? or somewhere in between?

there are no 'right' answers. there is no 'perfect' troop for every scout. As scout leaders, we want everyone to be as gung-ho as we are ;-) But the reality is that not everyone thinks life revolves around scouting! When they know the answers to what THEY want from the program, then they should go out and ask those questions of a few troops. Those troops whose answers most closely match THEIR answers, are the right troop for their boy.

laura