ASM59

(sorry, this is a long post...) The past year or so has been very disappointing. Weve had in-fighting on the Troop Committee and a SM and ASM who have superseded the authority of the boy-leadership (at summer camp and another outing) to the point of making the boys wonder why they even try. The Troop has done well from the standpoint of the boys and their development, growth, and advancement. We have many Scouts who are Star and Life rank and eagerly looking toward getting their Eagle rank. One of the Committee members and I have tried to keep things moving along, but my job has placed more demands on my time (traveling, many times on our meeting nights). Our SM cannot be relied on to show up for meetings and he doesnt bother letting anyone know that he will not be there until 20-30 minutes before the meeting. This results in some parents arriving at the meeting place only to realize that the meeting has been canceled when no leaders show up, because they missed the phone call canceling the meeting. Our last two meetings were canceled (I was out of town) at the last minute and our CO was not notified that the building was not needed. They are now mad at the Troop leadership because they pay an employee to come to open the building for us. Our SM planned the last two outings, only to drop them in the lap of others (myself and the committee member) at the last minute. And, no, there does not appear to be a reason and he will not discuss it or return phone calls from me. The SM planned a Court of Honor; I offered to help get the advancements together with him, but he insisted that hed take care of it. He called me 40 minutes before the start of the COH to let me know that he would not be there and that I should pick up the awards before I head to the meeting. I was barraged with questions from Scouts and Parents as to why certain awards were not handed out. I had no answer other than I did not have them to be handed out. With the troubles that we had at Summer Camp, our other active ASM is not willing to help out anymore. We only have two adults who seem to be committed to seeing this thing work, but I no longer have the time or the type of job that allows me to be present at most meetings and some outings. Our PLC has requested outings in October and November and our SM will not commit to going on any outings. Is this the death of a Troop? No one will step forward to help! I mentioned in a previous post that we are pulling from all the available parents as it is. Now those parents do not seem to be willing to do anything. I know I sound like Im complaining (maybe I am) but I really do care about the boys in this Troop, but I am considering taking my son to another Troop that is functioning. If I go, the Troop will either sink (fast) or someone will have to step forward. Any comments about what else we can do? ASM59

Ours are typically handed out at the end of the meeting to the boys, two meetings before the outing. The permission slip is due at the meeting before the outing. No permission slip, no go. It's the Scout's responsibility. For those of you who hand out a yearly permission slip or get permission slips signed when the Scout is dropped off for the outing; how do your patrols plan for the amount of food that is purchased? How do you track who is planning to go? We usually have 80-90% of the Scouts on any given outing, but we have been surprised on some outings and had only half of them come. We never plan for food or activities until each patrol is certain of how many will be present... just curious... ASM59

OGE, It states in your Council's training requirements, "Limited exceptions may be considered by the Council Training Chairman based on individual circumstances". Hopefully, they are taking into consideration situations like our Troop is in and making exceptions. It is great that they are experiencing growth. But could it be that we could experience even better growth by following a "mentoring" path like Beavah mentioned. I really think that Beavah is correct that a training requirement will, in many cases, produce "the adult version of advancement mills" with meaningless, yet time consuming, "training". ASM59

Hello, We just purchased 6 new Meramac 5 tents with the "ZF" option (heavier flooring and larger zipper size). We opted not to get the aluminum poles, due to price and fear that if the aluminum poles get stepped on they might crimp and not be usable. We don't know for sure if this was a real concern, but we are very happy with the tents, and have had good luck with the fiberglass poles in the past. We figured that the fiberglass poles should last the life of the tent, and if not, we can replace them for less than the extra cost of the aluminum pole upgrade. As you mentioned, we were not concerned about weight as these are used for car camping. I believe that the ZF upgrade option is far more important than the aluminum pole upgrade. ASM59

scoutldr, Point well taken. It is important that there be "standardized training". Perhaps there could be a standard "indoor training" video and testing at a Council or District camporee for those who have acquired up to first class skills while participating in Troop activities. This whole idea that there be mandatory training is scary. You see, currently our Troop in a crisis. Trust me, we are currently utilizing every possible adult that we can. We have 4 committee members, a Scoutmaster, and 3 ASM's. Two of our leaders (SM & ASM) work every weekend. All four leaders (SM & ASM's) have work schedules that sometimes means that they cannot make our Monday night meetings. There have been several times recently that meetings were canceled due to no available adults. All committee members have small children at home and/or work schedules which would prohibit them from covering for the SM or ASM's. We do not have one available person who can attend monthly roundtable for our District. We have monthly outings, but have a real hard time getting the leadership to handle transportation and supervision of the number of boys that go (average outing attendance is 18 boys). All of our leaders feel pushed to the extreme of what they can do for the Troop because of other obligations arising out of; single moms with young children, church obligations (a Scout is reverent), elderly parents, very young children, and large families. Forcing a training requirement on any one of the untrained volunteers at this point would mean pushing them out of their willingness to volunteer. If our Council passed a rule that said we could not recharter without 100% training of the leadership, we would fold and 21 boys would be without a Troop. There must be another approach that could be taken! ASM59

Good Day, I was an ASM for 8 months before I had my Scoutmaster Specific "Training" (indoor and outdoor). In those 8 months I learned more about the Boy Scout program from the Troops Scoutmaster than what was presented in the "training". Basically, I only went to get the card and the patch. I was told by the Scoutmaster that I already knew what I needed to know. If training is going to be mandatory, then why not let a trained Scoutmaster (or ASM) train the other ASM's as they come on board? Watching the program in action and getting "on the job" training/experience is much more effective. ASM59

Eamonn, I like your ideas about introducing "the unexpected" and "random acts of complete silliness" into your program. We have also cut back by one meeting a month - last Monday of the month is now PLC meeting not a regular Troop/Patrol meeting night. This has really helped the boys on the PLC to get down to business and do some planning. I have had some opposition to doing this from other adult leaders, but I think it works well. Barry, You are correct, nice post. The whole role model concept can be powerful. I've seen it in action where an older boy (15 years old) became a role model to two younger boys (10 & 11 years old). This was in the Church; a single mother was looking for an adult man to be a mentor to her two sons. This boy stepped in when no men in the Church answered her plea. He had a very positive influence on these younger boys and invited them to be involved with his life. They had two days per week where they would spend an hour or two after school together and then once a month or so they'd get together for the weekend. In general, I think of our problem here as a cultural problem, as mentioned. My take on this is that our generation has been trained into a very self-centered way of thinking. Getting volunteers is sometimes not too hard, but try to get a volunteer who really cares about seeing the program succeed; when that means sometimes putting someone else's (the troop, the boys) needs in front of their own needs. That's just about impossible! I see my role in Scouting as that of a servant. From that standpoint, it is very easy to be willing to do almost anything to see that the program works. It is also very frustrating when you cannot seem to get anyone else on board with the program. I think most of you who visit and participate in these forums get it and have a servant's heart as well. Thanks for all your dedication and willingness to work with all your Scouts... ASM59

Like others, our boys have expressed interest in going somewhere other than the local Council camp next year for summer camp. We are located about 60 miles SSW of Chicago, IL and are looking for a camp within 250 miles for next year. Does anyone know of a camp with a great program for both younger and older Scouts (11-17 years old). Please, if you know of a camp that you'd recommend, let me know. Thanks, ASM59

Welcome Home to all, We arrived back from summer camp on July 1st. Overall, I'd say it was a good week despite the problems that I noted in another thread. (http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=136032) The boys were very well behaved and I saw very encouraging signs that they are really getting the whole "boy lead" concept. On the FYC topic, I'll interject that we typically steer clear of that program except for certain Scouts that we really think will benefit from it. I definitely agree that putting an older Scout (even if he just joined) in that program could be bad for him based on the same reasons already cited. We typically get our new Scouts in February and have the chance to take them on several outings before Summer Camp. They are usually finished or nearly finished with their Tenderfoot requirements by that time. We encourage them to take Swimming and First Aid and one or two other merit badges during the week. We also schedule a couple of Troop activities to keep them busy. Busy, means less chance of getting homesick. ASM59

Hello, Nice response Eamonn... I just wanted to add a few thoughts. First, with regard to a Senior Patrol, I have seen mention of Senior Patrols in these forums over the past couple of years. My understanding was that a Senior Patrol was a patrol made up of the SPL, ASPL(s), and possibly Junior ASM(s). We have a Senior Patrol that is made up of the boys holding these offices and they function as their own independent patrol. And every election, this patrol changes dependant on who is elected SPL. As Eamonn says, just because a Scout is shy doesn't mean he cannot make a good leader. My son has been in this position. He is very soft spoken and not very assertive when it comes to giving direction. Especially because of his being like this, I helped him as he attempted to earn the respect and trust of the other boys; basically to live the Scout Law with humility and a servant's heart. He began by working closely with the younger scouts; helping them with advancements, camp set-up, taking them on fun hikes and other activities. In essence, he acted as a Guide to these Scouts without actually holding that position. He really is looked up to by these Scouts now. At the same time, he became a model Scout in his Patrol, doing his share and more; being helpful, kind, courteous... There were those who tried to take advantage of him, but we found ways to deal with those situations. He is now a Junior ASM in the Troop and has no problem with the other boys. He has their respect and they will listen to him. He has learned the patients of Job in dealing with the boys and I am proud to hear him say to others, "I guess I'm turning out to be just like Dad." Your son doesn't have to be done with Scouts after his Eagle rank is attained. He can stay on as a Junior ASM and eventually, at 18, become an adult ASM. He could be a great asset to the Troop. Keep encouraging him.

Thanks again for the replies; Regarding where the SM was and having him step into address these issues: The SM was the third adult at camp. He was actually there when this happened and he was the "other adult" that interfered in the second incident that I mentioned. At the time of the first incident the SM is the one who told me what happened. I told him that we (the adults) should stand back when one of the boy leaders handles a problem. If correction is required in the way the incident was handled, we need to gently correct the boy leader and instruct him how he could have better handled the situation. This type of instruction requires dialog. But simple dialog to the first adult (ASM that called him a punk) constitutes disrespect from the boy. I suspected that there might be trouble because of the way 'Tom' (the so called punk) was being talked about by the other ASM. Many times on Monday and again Tuesday morning, he referred to 'Tom' as a punk and how his way of dressing was indicative of an attitude that goes to his core. I should point out that aside from wearing pants that are two sized too big and wearing his hat at about a 45 degree angle from straight, he dresses fairly normal not what I would call extreme at all. This adult just wasnt going to give him a break. I believe that he was just waiting for his chance to get on to him about something. This lunch incident was his chance. ASM59

Thanks again for the replies: acco40, You are correct, I never judge a scout by what he wears or how he wears it. This boy (the one who missed Lunch, aka "the punk") is one of the best scouts I have had in the 7 years that I've been in Boy Scouting. I have renamed him "Mr. Someone". If a leader says, "Someone needs to pick this up" he is the first one to stand up to do it. He goes over and above what any other Scout in the Troop does to be polite, kind, and helpful. Basically this Scout exemplifies what a Scout is. MaScout, I agree with what you say... The problem is this ASM's wife is the Committee Chair and was present during the follow-up discussions and feels that her husband was totally disrespected by these Scouts. Not an easy situation. As has been said, "I love this scouting stuff", but sometimes I hate having to deal with the adults; kids are much easier to deal with... ASM59

Thanks Semper... The other Leader is a "trained" Assistant Scoutmaster. ASM59

Thanks for the feedback. Barry you are so correct about the fatigue that hits about Tuesday evening and seems to last through Wednesday. I have tried the last couple of years to get a Wednesday nap in sometime in the afternoon. In this case, this was more than a "cranky attack". This seems to go to the core of not only how the Troop should operate, but what constitutes disrespect from a youth. I really believe that this Adult Leader thinks that a youth can never say anything in his defense without it being disrespectful. It not only happened to both the Scout that missed lunch, but it happened to the JASM when he tried to explain the situation. Not to mention that several days later when trying to bring closure to the whole thing, the JASM was once again accused of being disrespectful but I was present and did not see any disrespect. I did see one hurt JASM, because he was doing his best to be calm and continued to be called disrespectful. I for one don't care to see this Adult (who has been my good friend for 4 years) work around youth anymore. ASM59

Good Day, We had a similar situation with Scouts that were always being accused of bullying but there was no evidence of it other than the accusations. We finally decided to change our disciplinary tactics. We called a meeting of all boys and parents. We announced that our Troop was taking a zero tolerance approach to bullying. We also stated that false accusations of bullying would be dealt with just as severely. Our approach was that on the first incident, the Scout would receive a 3 month suspension from outings and a parent must accompany them to meetings. A second incident would mean removal from the Troop. All parents agreed to this as a necessary step. We had one incident 3 months ago with one of the boys who was always being accused of bullying. He received his 3 month suspension. He did not come to meetings or outings for 3 months. One week before Summer Camp, he called up and asked if he could still go to camp with us. I told him that it would be great for him to come, but that he must behave himself. He agreed. He came to camp and behaved like a model Scout. I might add that we have had zero accusations of bullying since this boy was suspended. I hope it keeps working... ASM59

Good Day, I witnessed a couple of disturbing things at Summer Camp last week and need a "head check" to see if I am off base on this or if I have reason for concern. We took 20 boys to camp, one of whom is a "Junior Assistant ScoutMaster" (nearly 17 y.o.). He planned to stay with the Troop as an adult leader when he turns 18, and we felt making him a Junior Assistant SM was a way to get his feet wet in the Assistant ScoutMaster role. Now for the first incident: Two Scouts (13y.o. and 14y.o.) missed Tuesday Lunch. Later, I found that the reason they missed was that they thought lunch was the same time as it was on Monday. We had a rotating Lunch schedule and they did not realize that Lunch was an hour earlier on Tuesday. They were at the shower house when the Troop left for Lunch, but the Troop did not realize they were missing until we arrived at the Mess Hall. All during Lunch my other two adult leaders talked about the two missing boys and what a punk 'Tom' has turned into. They based his turning into a punk on the fact that he wears pants too big for him and wears his hat with the bill at about 45 degrees from the front-center. The person first back at camp was our Junior Assistant SM. He got a quick explanation from the boys about what happened and told them to grab some granola bars and head to their afternoon Merit Badge sessions. He also told the boys that they should pay better attention to the schedule that was posted on the bulletin board. When I arrived back at camp, I heard one of the adult leaders yelling, he then grabbed his fishing gear and announced that he was going fishing because he is tired of disrespectful, punk kids. I learned that he came back to camp and screamed at the two boys who missed lunch for eating the Troop's snacks because they were too lazy to come to lunch. When the boys tried to explain that missing lunch was an accident, he told them they were just being disrespectful punks and that they should be ashamed of themselves. Our Junior ASM tried to intercede, because he felt bad being the one who told the boys to eat the granola bars, but he was also yelled at and told that he was being disrespectful. This adult would not listen to the boys side at all. He perceived anything coming out of the mouths of these boys as being disrespectful. After the incident, I shared that I did not believe the two boys who missed lunch should have been yelled at for eating the snacks, but that we should have talked to the Junior ASM to make sure in the future that he puts a limit on the number of bars that the boys eat. I was informed by the adult in question that I was wrong, the Junior ASM was wrong, and the two boys who missed lunch were wrong and that he would not change anything about the way he handled it. Our Junior ASM plans to quit over this incident as he again tried to talk to the adult leader several days later and was once again told he was being disrespectful and that he was wrong to have given permission to eat snacks. He was further told that he was the one that got the other two boys in trouble and that he should feel bad about that. The adult ended the conversation with words to the effect that he did nothing wrong and would not change any of it. Now I was present at this discussion, and the only one who seemed to be disrespectful was the adult. I view this as an Adult jumping all over the "Boy Leadership" concept. We stressed at the beginning of camp that the Junior ASM held the same basic authority as the adults. I feel that if he gave permission to eat the snacks, that at the very most, we should talk to him so he can see that it would have been best to place a limit on the number of granola bars that the boys ate so the Troop's snacks are not depleted. A bit of gentle correction could have made him a better leader; instead he now wants to quit. The other incident was similar in that our Junior ASM had dealt with a problem from a 12y.o. Scout and another adult stepped in 30 minutes later (after the problem was done and over with) and started getting onto the Scout for what he was doing. This Scout was very upset at having to get in trouble twice (really over something very trivial). Again our Junior ASM was upset at having his authority to handle a situation questioned. Am I out of my head to worry about these incidents? Thanks for reading, ASM59

Good Day, Here is the breakdown of how our local Council Camp is set-up: Campsites: Campsites without tents, cabins, or adirondacks; Troops generally supply their own tents. I believe Council will provide wall tents if you are short on tents. Each campsite has two latrines (out houses) and a basin for washing hands with running water (each basin also has a lower spicket for refilling drinking water or making more "bug juice"). Aquatics: We have one lake for aquatic activities; swimming, canoeing, kayaking, motor boating, polar bear swim, mile swim, etc. Meals: Meals are served cafeteria style in the main dining hall. Per National guidelines three meals are to be prepared in the campsite, so we have breakfast prepared in the campsite on Tuesday, Lunch on Thursday, and Dinner on Friday. Showers: One shower building in the center of camp. The building is spit into 4 sections; Adult male Campers, Youth male campers, Adult male staff, Adult female staff (also shared by Adult female campers). The Adult male and Youth male camper showers are communal showers with 12 shower heads and one big room. This leads to some anxiety from new scouts, until they realize that most, if not all, boys wear their swim-suits into the shower. ASM59

Yes, Alps Mountaineering offers a 45% discount to Scouts all the time on their tents and sleeping bags as well as some other camping items and packs. Like 'Loping Okie' stated, sign up for their scout direct program and in addition to getting the standard 45% off, they'll send occasional e-mails with discontinued or over-stocked items. Last year I ordered new sleeping bags for 12 boys in our Troop because the parents could not pass up the offer. They were 0 degree mummy bags that normally sold for $100.00 each, on sale to reduce inventory for I think $35.00. The only catch was you had to order 4 at a time so they could just ship the whole box of four. You can also sign up for their "pro purchase" plan. This allows leaders to purchase some of their gear, evaluate and "show it around", at a 60% discount. Limited to one leader per Troop and to 1 pack, 1 tent, and 1 sleeping bag. The 45% discount applies after using up your "pro purchase" limit. ASM59

Eagle, Yes, stick to the high road. Remember our situation that I posted about several weeks ago: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=124180 Last year we received no Scouts from the Pack that we have always worked with. This year it looked like it would be almost as bad, but in the end all is well. Keep up the good work and stick to the program as it is to be delivered and they will come. And by all means look to other recruitment ideas, that sounds great. ASM59

Barry, Thanks for your post. You've really nailed down the whole "Guardian with a vision" concept. Thank you for your words of encouragement, so much of what you said, I'd like to comment on, but suffice it to say, "I agree". Some of what you said reminds me of an article posted in Scouting Magazine in October of 1950; text to follow... ------------------------------------------- Within My Power by Forest Witcraft Scouting, October 1950 I am not a Very Important Man, as importance is commonly rated, I do not have great wealth, control a big business, or occupy a position of great honor or authority. Yet I may someday mold destiny. For it is within my power to become the most important man in the world in the life of a boy. And every boy is a potential atom bomb in human history. A humble citizen like myself might have been the Scoutmaster of a Troop in which an undersized unhappy Austrian lad by the name of Adolph might have found a joyous boyhood, full of the ideals of brotherhood, goodwill, and kindness. And the world would have been different. A humble citizen like myself might have been the organizer of a Scout Troop in which a Russian boy called Joe might have learned the lessons of democratic cooperation. These men would never have known that they had averted world tragedy, yet actually they would have been among the most important men who ever lived. All about me are boys. They are the makers of history, the builders of tomorrow. If I can have some part in guiding them up the trails of Scouting, on to the high road of noble character and constructive citizenship, I may prove to be the most important man in their lives, the most important man in my community. A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove. But the world may be different, because I was important in the life of a boy. ------------------------------------------- ASM59

Yes, nice definition. We have also been involved in moving from a formerly adult lead Troop into a boy lead Troop; it can be a lot of work. We've made lots of progress, but it still seems to be a struggle sometimes. By the way, how big is your Troop. You say it is small, but that is a relative term. We started with 6-7 Scouts 3 years ago and have grown to 24 Scouts this year. Unfortunately the pool of adult volunteers has not grown. I'm looking forward to not only having a comfy chair, but I'm hoping that my one hour per week can be knocked down to about 45 minutes. ASM59

This is a continuation about the Scout who has been accused of being a bully. Hopefully, we are on the way to a happy ending. In the same time frame as my posts in the original thread "Who's Telling the Truth?", I was called by the Scout's mother. She wanted me to talk to her son as he is hanging out with the "wrong crowd" outside of Scouts. The next meeting I had to be out of town and did not get to talk to him. The next day, one of our other Scouts called me to let me know that the Police pulled this Scout out of Lunch to talk to him. He returned to class later, and would only say that he was going to "Juvi". It seems that he was hanging with some of these other friends who attacked another boy (just so happens to be one of our other Scouts) and destroyed his bicycle by hitting it with an aluminum bat. The Scout in question only watched and did not participate in the attack or destruction. In the end, he only received a talk from the Police with the advice that he be more careful in the future about who he hangs out with and the next time he could find himself in very big trouble. I got permission from his mother to talk to him about the incident. At our last meeting, we sat down for about a 20 minute conference. We discussed his advancement and how far he wants to go in Scouting. We eased into life outside of Scouting and right into his meeting with the Police. I explained to him that there are reasons that parents get concerned about who their kids hang out with. I asked him about lessons learned and we talked about how to not be found in that situation (or worse) again. As he recounted what happened with the police, the tears were flowing down his cheeks. I explained to him that one of the reasons we volunteer is to provide a place where boys can learn to make the right choices. I told him that we do care about him and don't want to see him make the wrong choices. We ended our conversation with a good discussion about how he comes across to the others on outings. He agrees that he needs help to work on this. He is going to write up some suggestions of how we can help him govern his behavior on outings. We plan to discuss this at our next meeting. ASM59

JustAsking, You state that this Scout's mother makes him attend Scouts as a punishment. I am not sure how we know this, but perhaps a Scoutmaster conference is in order. Really talk to this Scout to find out what is going on in his head. Find out if he is at all interested in the Scouting program and continuing in it. If you find that he is not interested, then perhaps a talk with Mom is in order. You can explain that because of the recent behavior and his not really wanting to be there that it seems too risky to the others for him to continue. If he is not interested, he won't really care if he screws-up on an outing. If you find that he is interested in continuing in Scouts, then you have some hope of reaching and helping this young man. Explain to him that you need to set some ground rules to ensure the safety of the other boys and the piece of mind of the adults. Come up with whatever seems reasonable (e.g.: gear and pocket checks on arrival for outings, behavior expectations...) and put it in writing. Again, have a meeting with the boy and Mom to go over these expectations and perhaps to get a signature that he'll abide by the rules. If he is willing, you have a chance. Just my thoughts... ASM59

Eamonn, I agree with your comments, now. I cannot explain a policy that doesn't exist. I cannot explain a policy that has multiple interpretations. I cannot assign a quantifiable amount to the term "active" so that everyone understands what is expected to meet that requirement within our Troop. So why should I even try to explain this to our parents? It has been a difficult process to understand the process surrounding all this. I'm not even sure I fully understand all the implications of what I've learned. One thing I do know, is that we cannot set a standard for what Active means. Doing so, seems to be a clear violation of National's policy. According to the interpretation of our highest ranking Council personnel, we cannot even deny a rank advancement based on a lack of Scout Spirit, because we are not allowed to measure Scout Spirit by participation or lack thereof in the Scouting program. The feeling we get from our Council Advancement Chair makes it seem that we are only here to "rubber stamp" the advancement, and even if we don't, it can be appealed and will probably go through anyway. Nevertheless we do have to work within the system, I just hope that Eagle rank will still hold the same respected place and will not become irrelevant in the years to come. This to will pass, and in a few weeks we'll be on our next outing having more fun than we probably deserve. I can't wait... ASM59

Proud Eagle replied: "Use good judgment in these things. Set out clearly, up front, what you expect of your Scouts and your youth leaders. Hold them to those expectations. I don't think anyone would fault you for that, even if they disagree with you." This is basically what started this whole discussion. My Power Point presentation that I was going to use to help our Scouts and their parents understand what is expected stated that the PLC and Troop has set guidelines for what is expected to meet these requirements. This statement is exactly what has come under critisism from the Council Advancement Chair. He has stated emphatically that the Troop cannot set such expectations. By the way, I do like FScouter said. It makes sense that if they are not attending, they cannot fulfill the requirements of their POR. Thanks for the posts. ASM59