asm 411

Whenever possible let the Scouts handle the safety. I have found that if I can wait just a little longer than I normally would to put a stop to something a Scout will. The difference is that when a Scout tells a another Scout that what they are doing or about to do is stupid he only has to say it once.

For instance we were camping last spring and one Scout announced he was going to jump over the fire. I sat quietly ready to put stop to it. As I was choosing my words another Scout says "Only an idiot would do that. Besides it is not much of a challenge anyway." That was the end of it. I still had plenty of time if the other Scout had not intervened.

I have held myself back like this several times since on purpose when similar issues have come up and in most cases the Scouts will police themselves. So I realized that my safety switch pops quicker than the Scouts. If I hold off for just a short period of time the Scouts will watch out for each other. The side benefit is when I do speak up the more impact it has.

Let me join in with the chorus. When an older boy, heck any boy, joins a troop he should be in a patrol with his friends. He will do more with those friends than a bunch of Scouts he does not know regardless of rank. It is his PL's responsibility to make sure his is advancing. Let the PL do the job.

Think of it this way that Scout who just joined has 5 to 7 well trained instructors to work with.

Our camp offers a ton of merit badges. Lot's of them have prerequisites. We go to Camp Manatoc in Peninsula Ohio which is the council camp for Great Trail Council.

The camp documentation encourages the Scouts to do two or three merit badges at camp.

The camp provides tons of things to do that are not merit badges.

I feel it is one of my responsibilities is to help each Scout have a fun time at summer camp. I ask them what they want to do. Some choose several merit badges others choose to do other things.

Some Scouts come home with a fist full of merit badges others come home with one and a bunch of partials. Everyone comes home with good stories about the fun they had.

My opinion is that if the camp only offers a lot of merit badges for the Scouts to do then it might be considered a mill. I think it is up to the troops Scouters to find out what there is to do at camp and let the Scouts know(through the SPL and PLs of course). This includes the list of merit badges, BSA special awards, hiking trails, special in camp awards, camp run activities... They also need to help the Scouts know when the water front, pool, archery and shooting ranges, and stuff like that are open.

What if all the camp offers is merit badges. The choices are find a different camp or come up with your own program. That way there is fun to have without the need to be at merit badge classes all day.

As a Scout I went to summer camp many times. One year I came home with six merit badges. My best friend and I earned basketry and leatherwork that year along with a few more challenging ones like life saving and environmental science. It was one of my best summer camps because I did those merit badges with my best friend. The merit badges were the icing on the cake. The two of us doing what we wanted to was the best part.

Just because a Scout earns a pile of merit badges does not mean he is not having fun. The flip side to that is that if a Scout earns one merit badge he is not necessarily a slacker.

Merit badge mill or a troop that has mill workers?

One last point it is up to us Scouters to keep the parents in line with fact that summer camp is about having fun. That merit badges can be part of that fun but not the main purpose. I am constantly reminding parents that advancement is only one eighth of our tool set so they should not focus on it too much.

Our Middle School has several to many Lego Mind Storm kits the students use for science class and Robofest competitions. The kits run about $250 if I remember correctly.

I have thought about getting a kit for my son and I now a couple of Scouts who have gotten them for Christmas. So I don't see robotics as a difficult thing for Scout to do.

Buffalo Skipper thanks for the long explanation. It is unfortunate that things came together like this. I will be interested to see what the others reply. As a Scouter I believe that letting the older Scouts plan and execute is one of the keys to keeping those Scouts interested and active.

I am curious who's idea it was to do the wilderness survival outing for the Venture Patrol? From the blatant disregard for the spirit of thing it seems like the Scouts were not at all interested.

The odd thing is you almost have to commend the Scouts for thinking ahead (had snacks ready to be stashed), planning (hid snacks in woods) and pulling off their own agenda (almost did what they planned; if was not for the meddling SM). Except for the fact they shattered several points of the Scout Law in the process.

By the book a patrol is 5 to 8 Scouts. I will caution you that even patrols of 5 can be difficult to work with because if two Scouts don't show the division of labor is gone. Similarly if you have a patrol of even 9 or 10 temporarily until you see if you are growing or shrinking it is okay because it is unlikely every boy will show up for every event. If they do you are doing a great job and the boys can decide to split the patrol.

I never worked with a troop with only one patrol. Oddly enough the SPL seems a bit superfluous one only one patrol but I wonder if the ASPL is still needed. By definition the ASPL not only helps and covers for the SPL but helps the PORs other than PL. So if there is no one but the PL who directs the Librarian, Historian, Bugler, Scribe...

Initially you could say the SPL takes up the ASPL job as well. But in a one patrol troop couldn't an APL do that? The obvious wrong answer is an ASM because boys should be leading boys and Scouters should be guiding a single boy to oversee these PORs.

The troop the next town over worked without an SPL for two years in a similar situation to yours. As the troop grew the SPL position was brought into the program. It seems to have worked out. I wonder if the SM worked just through the one PL or if he ran the meetings. I will have to find out.

I looked in the SM Handbook. There is no diagram for a troop with one patrol.

Personally I think if there is only one Patrol the PL and APL should take on the SPL and ASPL responsibilities respectively until the troop is big enough to need an SPL.

This is always a tough requirement for Scouts to understand it seems. I am not sure why it seems pretty straight forward to me.

Pick an organization, find out about them, if this organization is OK with your parents and your MBC go help them for 8 hours.

As a MBC for this badge I have accepted hours performed to an organization that was done before the Scout checked with me. Only in the case where the Scout did 7a and 7b first. I also explained to the Scout that it was risky to do the service without my approval. Hopefully when he works on future merit badges he will be more careful. I have also had to reject service hours because they were not done after 7a and 7b.(This message has been edited by ASM 411)

I am sorry if I implied the boys could not go and do GtSS prohibited activities at all as individuals or as a group. That as not my intent. I wrote "I looked at them and said that you can not go to laser tag as a patrol or a troop".

I have taken my own son and several of his friends who are Scouts and some who are not Scouts to Laser tag. When my son was a Cub and I was Den Leader he and I worked on projects using power tools as well. These were not Cub Scout events so the GtSS does not apply.

I think that if Scouts are planning an event that is prohibited by the GTSS as if it is Scouting ( at troop meetings or PLC meetings or Patrol meetings ) and calling it not Scouting they are being devious and it should not be done.

Scout event planning has several key points in it. One is two deep leadership or a plan approved by the Scoutmaster. Verifying the event does on conflict with the GtSS. Possibly a tour permit.

For a Scout to say "I going to play laser tag on Friday at 6:00 anyone else want to come?" at a Scout meeting is not planning an event as if it were Scouting. It is letting his friends know something cool is going on.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Narraticong I am with you.

I have heard similar arguments about Laser Tag. At one time the Scouts started giving me a hard time about not being able to go to Laser Tag. I looked at them and said that you can not go to laser tag as a patrol or a troop. I also told them that I also think that the BSA banning laser tag is a bit extreme in to me as well. I don't like the rule but we have to live with it.

I then explained that a rule is a rule until the rule changes. If they think they have a case for changing the rule write a letter to National and see what they say. No one took me up on the idea and they backed off.

If Scouters look for loop holes to defeat the spirit on a rule what are we showing them. I think it shows the Scouts that what we personally want is more important than following rules. This is major problem in our society as it is. Let's not promote it.

As from me I feel taking away the adult free patrol outing is a big mistake. There are criteria that have to be followed to have an adult free outing including planning approved by the Scoutmaster. I really hope this is just a rumor.

Public view

First Aid

Cooking

Camping

Pioneering

Wilderness Survival

Aims of Scouting view

Personal Fitness

Personal Management

Family Life

Citizenship in the Community

Citizenship in the Nation

Scouts View

Rifle

Shotgun

Archery

Can I do Rifle again? No. OK then

Camping

Wilderness Survival

1) Last year when we were looking for a new vehicle my wife told me that we should go with a Honda Pilot because it holds 8. The other vehicles we were looking at only held up to 7. We are a family of four. Her reasoning was that since I go on all the Scout camping trips if we got Pilot then the Scoutmaster and I can carry up to 14. 12 Scouts and two leaders that would make it easier on the troop not to have to recruit other parents to drive most of the time. We bought the pilot.

2) The other vehicle we own is a minivan. I have the space behind the rear seat reserved for most used Scout stuff including a large case that has all the important docs Boy Scout Handbook, GtSS, Uniform book, Committee book, Scoutmasters Handbook, Paddle your own canoe, Aides to Scoutmastership... Also there is a box that has a couple of useful Scout items in it like a frisbee, a medium size ball, a sharpening stone, a hammock... Lastly there are four boxes of microwave popcorn my son is still trying to deliver since last November. He sold $1700 worth of popcorn and these last two people never seem to be available for delivery.

As for Scouting Stickers, the minivan has one that says "I am proud of my Boy Scout". I keep wondering if my wife got that in reference to my son or me. I think it is my son because otherwise should have gotten the one that said "Eagle Scout" on it instead. Along those lines my son completed his BOR for Life last night so within a few years (he is thirteen now) there is a good chance she will be upgrading the sticker for him.

Mafaking wrote:

"Is there program experience that one can comment on where the program went back and re-emphasized scout skills as a means to improving patrol leader success? "

In our troop we have our older Scouts teach the new Scouts their Scout Skills. In my opinion teaching others is the best way to learn ourselves. A secondary benefit of this is that the bonds between the teacher and the student are strengthened.

Now lets go a step farther have the PL teach his patrol a Scout Skill they are weak in. Make sure the skill is verified by the PL when he is done. Of course this is done by working through the SPL. The PL shows he knows something gaining respect from the patrol.

As a Scouter, with the SPL in tow, watch the patrols as they learn something from the PL. Discuss with the SPL what the two of you see as areas that the PL can improve. Then have the SPL work with the PL to get better.

Mafaking you mention a limited amount of time. Typically I have found that when we try and hurry in teaching the quality drops off. So if you want a quality product you must take your time. Remember we get each Scout for about 7 years.

I regular look over the Scouts we have in our troop. I then try to decide where they could use some help. Then I try to prioritize who to work with. Following the program can make this difficult because I have to work through the SM who has to work through the SPL who has to work through the PL in most cases. Depending on where the Scout needs to grow I sometimes do ASM conferences, just like SM conferences but with me. I work very closely with our SM and he is always in the loop.

I try to do this as little as possible because I truly believe that Scouts learn and grow better with each other.

A Boy Scout Troop is a diverse group. Some patrols and some boys will excel at some things and not others. The first question you should ask is if the Scouts are having fun on the outing? If they are then other training can be added to improve their abilities in leadership and scout craft. However don't ever forget "The fable of the Animal School". http://www.janebluestein.com/handouts/animal.html

Here are some of my thoughts about leadership and management

Leader Develops a vision or identifies the direction for the group based on values

Manager Develops the mission based on a leaders vision

Worker Does what is identified in the mission efficiently by taking the initiative

Trainer Instructs/guides/supports any of the above in how to be more effective or efficient

Scouts and Scouters We wear the hat of the leader, manager, worker or trainer depending on the situation

In Scouting some projects may require us to participate in only one of the four roles. Most projects require us to take on more than one of the roles and often times all four. In scouting the SPL is the Leader, the ASPL and the PLs are typically managers and the patrol members are typically the workers. Often times in Scouting these roles change depending on the situation and environment. Training happens at all levels by Scouts and Scouters.

Keep mindful when to lead, when to manage, when to work, when to train and when to stand aside and so others can learn by leading, managing, training or becoming proficient at a task.

Because of scouts aging out and no crossovers this year the PLC decided we need to reform patrols because they were tired of camping with 3 or less to a patrol on most campouts. Our troop policy is that you can use any patrol name you want as long as it is approved by the SPL (As in all things the Scoutmaster always has the right to veto anything but rarely ever needs to use it) and a patrol patch can be acquired from the Scout Shop. Too many promises to get custom patrol patches without any follow through.

So we used to have Flying Tigers, American Eagles, Black Hawks (Their flag had a Black Hawk Helicopter on it) and La Coste (a play on the designer who came up with the Izod name, they used the alligator patch)

For new names we have are the Magical Moose and the Buffalo Soldiers. There was a bit of stir about the Buffalo Soldiers initially. We live in rural Ohio and we are an all white troop. Disclaimer: There is no exclusion going on it is just the make up of our community and any boy is welcome in our troop.

The Scoutmaster sat down with the patrol and explained to them who the Buffalo Soldiers were. I learned quite a bit while I was listening in. He explained to them that they could use the name as long as they treated it with the respect it deserved.

The patrol decided unanimously to keep the name. I believe the boys take even more pride in the name because it has a proud history.

The SPL and ASPL are considered inactive (there is probably a better word but I could not come up with it) members of their patrols. Typically the SPL and ASPL tent with each other or members of the patrol they would be in if they were not SPL and ASPL. They can set their tent up with their patrol or completely separate, it is their decision.

They eat with whoever they want to but have to give heads up before the food is purchased. They even eat with the Scouters if they want to. They are not on any patrol duty roster because they have more important responsibilities. In patrol competitions at district and council events they compete with their patrols. If their patrol has an outing they go along as patrol members.It is made clear they can not pull rank on the PL when they are in their patrol member mode.

Treating them as inactive patrol members lets the SPL and ASPL do the fun stuff when their responsibilities are taken care of instead of having to sit on the side lines.

In our troop the Scoutmaster does all Webelos II's, Scout and Star and above SMCs.

I work with the Troop Guide and the new Scouts so often times it makes more sense for me to do the Tenderfoot and Second Class SMCs. I already have a good idea of where each new Scout is at and what opportunities are coming up.

Depending on the Scout the First Class SMC will be done by whoever the SM and I feel would be best to give the Scout direction toward Star.

Typically this has to do with who the Scout gravitates to more. The SM and I are close friends and try to always make the decision based on what we think is best of the Scout. We feel that having the conferences with both of us along the advancement trail gives the boy more adult interaction and views of Scouting. Also it gives us both an opportunity to get to know the Scouts.

Additionally we are both in agreement that I am next in line to be SM so having me more involved in the SMCs works toward a smoother change over in a few years when he steps down.

Every troop has different Scouter personalities and I think it really depends on what works best for the Scouts based on the SM and his ASM(s).

Uniforms and books ... required ... not required.

I suppose that a car without tires and a steering wheel is still a car. It just is not as functional as one with those things.

Keep in mind that even though uniform is not required it is one of the methods of Scouting.

Also keep in mind that the handbook, though perhaps not required, is really the best way for a Scout to track his own advancement and investigate what the requirements mean on his own. Since advancement is also a method of Scout it would be a serious flaw in thinking by a Scouter not see that the Handbook is as close to a required tool as Scout has. In other words it would be foolish not to do everything in our power as Scouters to make encourage the use of the Handbook as if it were required.

When a Scout joins our troop he is given a handbook. It is included in the cost of registration. We explain that it is important to his advancement because it is where he needs to keep get the things he completed signed off. When everything for a rank is signed off he advances. Not required? How does a Scout communicate to the Scoutmaster and the advancement chair what he has done the requirements if not with the handbook. How does the Scout know when he is ready for a Scoutmaster Conference if he is not keeping track somewhere? If a Scout loses a handbook the advancement chair will provide the information from Troopmaster for the Scout if necessary. The Scout is then told to get a new handbook. If there were an issue with a Scout not being able to afford an $8 handbook I would buy one for the Scout myself if our Scoutmaster did not beat me to it. Anything that has been lost between the last time the Advancement Chair updated the records from the book can be recaptured from whoever signed off his book just by the Scout asking for the signature again. We believe in trust but verify.

Uniforming is always a difficult task. The Scouters encourage the PLC to wear their uniforms and to encourage their patrols do the same. We maintain a troop uniform closet (actually it is a large bin) for those who may have difficulties purchasing uniforms themselves. Depending on our SPL we are either well uniformed or not. Our Committee requires more proper uniforming by rank. A Scout going for a BOR for Tenderfoot would be reminded that he should wear his neckerchief to all BORs in the future. I am not sure what their exact criteria is but I have seen several First Class and Star Scouts asking to borrow neckerchiefs. Would they fail a Scout for not wearing his uniform. I don't know it has never come up as far as I know. It is explained the wearing the complete uniform is a sign of respect to the adults working with him in the case of BORs, Scoutmaster Conferences and Merit Badge counciling. The troop neckerchief is also included in the sign up cost so every Scout gets one.

That is what our troop does and it seems to work for us. Your mileage may vary.

I am pretty particular about the choice of words our Scouts use. I would like to think that if they can be offensive to anyone as Scouts should avoid them. The Scout Law dictates this in several ways which others have already pointed out.

How an ASM cured me -

During a "Personal Growth Agreement" (modern day Scoutmaster Conference) with an ASM about 30 years ago he looked me square in the eye. Then he said something like, "I don't like when people cuss. Do you know why?" My answer was something like "I don't know, it is not Scout like?" He replied "Although that is true that is not why I dislike when people cuss. What I think it does is show a lack of vocabulary which reflects a lack of intelligence. I know you are smart enough to find at least 25 more descriptive words to use in place of any cuss word. Why don't you show the world how smart you are instead of how stupid?" That pretty much put it to rest for me.

I have used this on several of the Scouts in our troop and it seems to still work to this day just as well as it did on me. The reason I think it works is because when you get right down to it, it is the truth.

We do our best work when we work one to one with Scouts.(This message has been edited by ASM 411)

Thanks for all the responses.

Shopping is not really a problem. The patrols make their menus and shopping lists which the SPL approves with some SM guidance when necessary. They are giving a set amount per meal and stay within budget for the most part. If they are over (which is rare and not by much) the others have to pitch in and if they are under budget the left over is divided among the patrol members.

All that works well. One parent does store long term perishables for future use like ketchup.

My concern is really with the short term perishables like bread, milk, eggs, fruit, veggies. The thing I am trying to over come is when we come home with 3 half loaves of bread, 3 quarts of milk all each the bottom of gallon jug or three half bags of apples, 3 sets of 4 eggs. It seems to me that with a little forethought perhaps we could be thrifty and have less food to distribute to families when we return.

We returned from this month's campout and had to send home about 14 eggs of 2 dozen purchased, 4 full sticks of butter 2 boxes of 4 purchased, a little more than a bag apples of two bags purchased... These food items were purchased by the patrol cooks.

So I started thinking, has anyone tried having the Patrols working together on completing the food list. The patrols buy and trade for some items. Each patrol needs 4 eggs so one patrol would buy a dozen and the other patrol could by bread then trade half the loaf for 6 eggs.

Our menus have to be approved by the SPL so he could look for places where this kind of thriftiness could happen.

Does anyone encourage anything like this?(This message has been edited by ASM 411)

I am with Mafaking. In the final analysis I serve the community as BP intended. I believe that BP was interesting in creating a world brotherhood of good healthy citizens. Though a military man he believed if we taught boys that good citizenship and brotherhood then wars could be prevented.

To obtain that goal on a daily basis I serve one Scout at time in whatever his needs are. Of course Scouting creates the needs which are for that Scout to be a physically fit citizen of good character who can make ethical decision throughout life based on the Scout Oath and Law.

Software Engineering Consultant (BSEE)

Some feel that other activities trump scouting but I feel that other activities are in a way part of scouting. We tell Scouts that they need to experience interaction with other adults. Don't they get the opportunity to do that when they are on a sports team or in the band. Don't we want Scouts to learn some level of proficiency in an area through merit badges. So if a Scout is involved in the band or sports shouldn't we encourage them to do so and point them toward the merit badge(s) that will be easily earned while taking part in that activity.

Our Troop's philosophy is that we are willing to flex around what is going on in the Scouts lives. In the fall we have many Scouts that are in the band and have to attend the Friday night games. We have others that just are really big football fans. We leave on Friday evenings for campouts for the few who could care less about football and are not in the band. We make arrangements for the others to come out Saturday morning by coordinating the parents to drive them.

When we have our planning session we build out campout weekends around the major sports and band events as well as distict, community and school events.

When a Scout comes to me and says he is playing football or baseball so I will not be here for the next several weeks. I tell them that it's great hear, physical fitness is 1/3 of what Scouting is about and being on sports team is great for that. Then I tell them thanks for letting me know, have a great time, I hope your team does well and see you in a few weeks. I also tell them to take a look at personal fitness, athletics and sports merit badges.

You know what some of them show up 20 or 30 minutes late to meetings during the season because that is as soon as they can make it to the meetings after practice. I never even mentioned coming. They want to be there and they know it is okay to be late. I always thank them for making the extra effort.

If the Scout is First Class, Star or Life I ask them if the would like a leadership project to do for the troop since having a POR will be difficult with their sports schedule.

We have had PL's join sports teams in the middle of their tenure. We don't remove them from their position. We have them do their jobs through their APLs and other members of their patrol. Being a patrol leader does not necessarily mean being present at every meeting and event. It means making sure your patrol is ready for the meeting or event. Delegating to the others you trust is a good leadership skill, is it not.

The aims of scouting include character development, citizenship training and personal fitness. How better to learn how to be a good citizen than participate in the community? How better to promote fitness than exercise four to five times a week. How better to develop character than to show a Scout how to work around a problem?

Other activities are not taking away from Scouting they are opportunities to meet the Aims of Scouting. I think it is a matter of perspective. Do other activity "trumps" scouting or does it helps do what we are trying to do?(This message has been edited by ASM 411)

The District Klondike went great. Thanks for all your helpful comments. We had four Scouts on Friday and a fifth joined us Saturday morning.

The temperature was between -18F and -15F on the overnight on Friday depending on whose thermometer you wanted to believe. The low on Saturday night was +25. The older Scouts did a good job of training the first timers. Everyone was comfy on the overnights. They all reported that they were warm in there sleeping bags.

One Scout needed ... errr ... retraining several times on Saturday that wearing your hat and coat will help to keep your hands and feet warm. Other than that the Scouts did all the right things and were comfortable for the weekend.