kb6jra

Wow, they took that out of commission quick.

Hopefully they'll turn it back on soon.

"What could it hurt for you to put personal opinion aside and just work through it logically and see where it leads us?"

ROFLMAO

Reminds me of a skit I saw on TV...

Guy acts like he's dialing a phone, using his hand as a handset...

"Hello Kettle, this is the Pot. Your Black!"

This has turned out the be the most hillarious thread.

If they were going to introduce it, it would probably be at the National Meeting in San Diego this May or at the All Hands Meeting in August.

I'm hoping it's going to be in San Diego, I'm going to that one...

On the two courses I've staffed so far, we show our totems for every presentation we have, we have a totem next to our pictures in our materials and we have a tradition that the patrols afix thier totems to the appropriate patrol boxes on the second weekend.

Of course I didn't have any of this on the course i took in 2003, so I had to "fix" my totem when I needed to actually use it.

"Boy Scout Skills for Scoutmasters" 1983 Philmont Scout Ranch...

#1, because it was at Philmont, the holy grail of BSA, and

#2, This was the first long term training I'd ever taken and the experience of bonding with other like minded scouters while in an immersion environment was irreplaceable. Being a 22 year old "kid" at the time gave me a certain skew on the subject. I was able to beat the heck out of the "old timers", some as old as 40 , at scoutcraft, and I learned a lot from them in terms of dealing with youth from an adult perspective...

Wow, this takes me back. I'm going to dig up all of my old stuff from those days and reminisce. Thanks for reminding me...

Ok, I'm going to put on my bragging hat:

One of my patrols has won "honor patrol" 3 of the last 5 years. Not the same patrol each time, but typically our regular scout patrol of 13 year olds, 1st class or better...

We don't host the Camporee ever, we do lots of other things in the district. We do take advantage of the information put out by the Camporee Chief prior to the event and we make sure the boys are aware of what the competitions are so they can prepare.

Our district camporees have been a mixed bag of mediocre to excellent in the past 7 years. The first camporee I attended for this troop, there was one troop hosting, and they made up all of the rules and the 'hows and whys' of the competitions. Each competition was run by another unit, but which wasn't determined until the night before the event. Also, the competitions weren't announced ahead of time. This gave the host unit a real advantage in that they knew what the competitions were and nobody else really did.

Lately the host unit has sent out packets of info, usually via email, to every Scoutmaster and SPL in the District. The information is available two months in advance and gives each unit time to plan their instructions around the skills needed for the camporee. The only talk I need to give the boys is about teamwork and the patrol method, which turns out one of the main reasons we get such high marks year after year.

Kahits, I think the specter of impropriety may keep some units from returning to the game until the host is changed out. I've seen that happen in other districts in our council and it's a real bummer. If you think that a poorly attended camporee will affect your chapter negatively, then maybe you should consider having the chapter host the camporee. I've seen very creative camporees hosted by an OA Chapter and they turn out great, and it's a great way to promote the chapter to potential and current inactive arrowmen.

Good luck.

Wow Lisabob, lots of good questions.

We have an experienced scout patrol, which could be argued to be a venture patrol. The boys are generally 14+ and experienced campers and hikers. We plan grander high adventure trips for them during the summer and allow them to do more difficult monthly hikes and outings.

Since most high adventure activities in Scouting are limited to those 14 years and older, that seems to be the typical age limit. That's not to say that a 13 year old can't do a 50 mile backpack, it would depend on the boy's condition and mindset, but generally speaking 14 year olds are physically and usually mentally able to handle a more aggressive program.

Our older boys plan a high adventure trek in the summer, and to round out their numbers invite "qualified" individuals in the troop to join them. By qualified, I mean that they are allowed to participate if they can complete the practice and conditioning hikes/outings and they are at least 1st class. Oddly the rank is a bigger stumbling block than the ability, but if a boy is 1st class, there's a good argument that he's been active in the unit and "deserves" consideration to be on the trek.

The sub-unit you're alluding to here sounds more like our PLC, where the leaders of the troop are members and do special outings together. When your troop leadership are a high functioning team the planets align and the Great Master smiles upon us all.

In our troop we encourage each patrol to have program away from troop outings. We want them to make the patrol outings exciting and fun, and try to make the other patrols jealous so they'll do the same. Our boys have had more fun doing this lately, but it does take a lot of extra adult effort to make it happen.

Good luck with your program, and have fun with it too.

The patch has the 100th Anniversary Logo incorporated into it. I think it's cool that a youth member of a Scout Troop came up with it. I'm proud of it personally and I'll wear it with some pride, as if I had anything to do with it.

The application for the Silver Beaver has some pretty good guidelines, and I'm pretty sure the local councils have to follow that list, but I may be wrong. The two councils I've been involved with followed it to my knowledge.

The current council does a good job of selection. All nominations are screened and formatted to be similar in appearance. Each is numbered and names or identifying info are removed. Identifying info may be "..served as District Chairman in Atlanta, Santa Fe, Tupelo", so it would be changed to "..served as District Chairman".

The committee gets the forms and apply a value to the quality of the service given. Typically $$ is given lower points value than actual direct service. At the end of the day the numbers are added up and the scores are layed out. The top nominees are taken in order until the number of awards are exhausted.

I think the reason that they give the money raising a lower value is to dispell any question that a Silver Beaver can be bought. Let's face it, there are lots of ways to serve youth, in or out of Scouting.

OGE had a point as well about the disparity in time served. We've found in our council that this disparity is directly in perportion to the amount of QUALITY nominations received. That is to say turning in a nomination with tons of information and facts of the individuals service will stand out more than recieving a nomination that states "Jim is a good man, he deserves this award for his 40 years of service". Some nominators (is that a word?) are so secretive about making the nomination, they never get the facts straight and don't include 1/2 of the service given, which doesn't stand up well to the more complete nominations.

I would venture to say that most people that have been awarded the Silver Beaver are very deserving, and I'd at least like to generalize that they all are, it's just easier. I'm certainly not smart enough to judge who did or did not deserve receiving it.

Traditionally we do this for our Eagles.

Troop purchases:

Eagle presentation kit (medal, pins, first patch)

Eagle embroidered neckerchief

Eagle neckerchief slide

Campaign Hat (cool tradition, even if they only wear it once)

if they have a hat already, then we have a jewler make a special tie bar

Brass nameplate with Eagle Board of Review date on it for CO perpetual plaque

Wooden Eagle toll painted w/ brass nameplate w/ EBoR date to hang on wall of Scout House

The Eagle keeps almost everything, but the Plaque and the wooden Eagle that hangs on our wall. We have one for each Eagle we've ever had. The kids get a charge out of receiving this and the new boys that join the troop see that they can become part of something special to the unit.

Good luck with starting a new tradition.

Thanks, that looks great. My council starts interviewing perspective adults for contingent leaders next month. I've got my fingers crossed.

As I said before, it would be really sad if a boy read this and wrongly believed that he had violated some rule by wearing his uniform to perform his project. It just isn't so.

This is exactly my feeling as well.  I believe many adults come here as a sort of online commisioner's corner to get answers.  They don't necessarily post, but they believe what they read.  I personally use a lot of the info I get here in the jobs I've got in Scouting.  I think we forum users have a responsibility to post facts when we "quote" regulations and rules.

I truely believe that misrepresenting something of this nature is a diservice to our members.  Nothing personal, just my feelings on the issue.

BobWhite, you're interpretation of this rule is unsupportable, and unless National is wrong as well in all of thier printed and illustrated material (and I seriously doubt they'd allow a misrepresentation of this caliber to continue), then I would advise you to rethink your position, or atleast concede that the 99% of us on this forum that hold to one interpretation of the BSA requirements may be right without admitting that you're wrong.  It would be the honorable thing to do at this point. 

And yes, I've been to training...I give the training, and nowhere does the current course syllabi for any training dictate, hint or even indicate that an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project is NOT a scouting activity or that an Eagle Candidate may not wear his uniform during any work performed for an ESLP. 

And I think FScouter is correct, this will be my last jab at the matter. 

When I took the course in '03, our TG's took our tickets to see the ASM-TG wizzard. She approved/denied tickets. The TGs were our ticket counselors

When I served last year on staff, TG's did the same thing and the wizzard had his hand on every decision...and wasted a lot of time. Us TGs are the counselors

This year on course our TG's do everything, and they've spend a weekend together to figure it all out in advance. The ticket won't hurt as much as it once did I hope. The TGs are also the counselors on this course.

"Outside the Sphere of Scouting" means that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the local council, the unit...that's it. " No it does not. That is a separate issue addressed in a separate BSA policy.

Yes, I'm afraid it does.  You are putting together bits and pieces of several rules and guidelines in order to make a rule that doesn't exist.  You're adding additional requirements and burden on the backs of the scouts you serve.

Reason this through. Is the Eagle project done as a unit, district, or council event? No. it is done as an independent and indiviudal activity for an ouside organization.

Hence the statement "outside the sphere of scouting" That's all it means, no more no less.

The Uniform policiy says that "The official uniforms are intended primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities as defined by the national Executive Board, and their use may be approved by the local council executive board for council events or activities under conditions consistent with the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

With this argument, you're saying that advancement is not considered a Scout activity?  Seems a bit wrong to me.  The ESLP is indeed a requirerment for advancement, and well within the sphere of Scouting.  The actual requirement states that "...while a life scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religeous institution, school, or your community. The project idea must be approved by your Scoutmaster, and Committee, and by the Council or District before you start.  You must use the Eagle Scotu Leadership Service Project Workbook, No. 18-927, in meeting the requirement"

The ESLP Workbook further states about this requirement that "(the project will benefit an organization other than the BSA)"

Nowhere does it say that it's not a scout activity, nowhere in the Scout Handbook, the ESLP Workbook, or the Eagle application does it state that the scout cannot wear his uniform while performing his project. 

Bob, you've not given any citation or documentation that is definative, only supposition, extrapolation and guesswork.  It's not adding up, and no matter how many times you post the same stuff, you're not going to make the case for your argument. 

Eammon,

My old council sounded a lot like what you're going through. Many people asked to sit on the Executive Board and never showing up. The write their check during the year and that's the end of their commitment. We had so much of this going on some of the Executive Committee (VP's, DC's, and Key 3) would joke about it openly.

We lost our council ultimately. It was a sad day when that happened.

Now we're a part of a much bigger and better organization. Our current Executive Board meets bi monthly and the Executive Committee meets monthly. Any Executive Board member may attend any meeting, and they get a good lunch prepared by the SE to boot.

Each Summer the Executive Board (50+ folks) are asked to attend the meeting at the council's camps, while they're in operation. What a lot of fun those meetings are. We get to take a guided tour of camp, see kids having a great time, and understand the operations of the place, not to mention what we spent money on the last 12 months, and what we'll be considering in the next 12.

Our Executive Board has a great camaraderie and we seem to get a lot done at every meeting. Almost every member is also connected with a unit in a leadership position. I guess it sort of keeps us rooted.

Wow, lots of bad info here.

"Outside the Sphere of Scouting" means that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the local council, the unit...that's it. The project is formulated, planned and generally carried out by scouts (but does not have to be). It has nothing to do with uniforming and liability.

" A Scout unit that volunteers to help with the poroject as a troop activity would be covered by their regular BSA accident and liability insurance BUT ONLY for the members of that unit that participated. That protection does not extrend to any person or property related to the project, including the candidte. Those other parties would be under the coverage of the benfitting organization and or property owner."

This is not correct, the ESLP is planned and executed under the umbrella of the BSA, the local Council and the unit. Of course the candidate is covered under BSA insurance, provided the project is approved and the candidate and his leaders have filed the appropriate permits and received the appropriate permissions. To say that the candidate is not covered is very misleading.

Eammon, if your friend staffed WB21C in 2005, wouldn't he be "elegible" under the new rules? Part of being on staff is the experience of living the presentations and materials again, in a different light. I believe his training would be acceptable under the circumstances and within the requirements. Ultimately that would remain the decision of your Council NSJ Committee, but he certainly has at least one leg to stand on.

I'd like peach a la mode please! mmmmm

I think this whole thread has gotten hilarious quite frankly.

Here's my take.

Scouts shouldn't wear field uniforms (very pricey) to service projects. It's nice to see them in activity uniforms (troop t-shirts) during these. They certainly don't have to and are not required to at any rate in our unit.

Eagle candidates working the project are expected to lead the project and to jump in and help when needed. Don't expect anyone to do a job you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. Sometimes a task demonstrated by the perceived leader gets better attention and respect than an order from someone standing behind the lines in a uniform.

I read the requirement "outside the sphere of scouting" to mean that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the Unit or the Local Council. That's it, it's got nothing to do with liability or the like, that's just silly. If it is a requirement to do a project to earn the rank, and you must get the approval of the unit and the local council before work can begin, then there is some liability there whether you wear a uniform or not and whether your volunteer base are members or not.

And no, I'm not a lawyer, but my daughter is in law school if that helps.

District Advancement Committees are a great idea in a centralized management style, but when you "decentralize" the overall management of this segment of Scouting, it quickly becomes a competition of which district has the most "legitimate" Eagles around.

Case in point is my Council. We've got 10 districts, soon to grow again. The Council management style was to leave the districts to themselves due to the vast area of the Council. This caused several good ideas to become rooted and now some districts have ridiculous extra provisions for Eagle projects, Boards of Review, and the like.

One District required boys showing up for Eagle Boards to be in full uniform only, nothing else was acceptable. The boy also had to have hiking boots on, no other shoes would be acceptable and he would not receive a BoR. While this is desirable, I don't see it as enforceable.

Another District required the following, sort of a district level Scoutmasters Conference. First the Eagle candidate made an appointment with the district Eagle counselor. The Counselor required a meeting with the boy, then his parents, then his scoutmaster, then all of them together. This was before they could submit a project. After the project was finished, but before the BoR was scheduled, they had to do it all over again. It's not like this guy lived right around the corner either.

I would venture a guess that most councils have their issues in this regard. The two councils that closely border ours have similar problems.

Getting back to your original post, our District takes about 2 - 3 weeks, depending on the volume of projects at the office. During the summer months (vacation times) we may have longer waits. A BoR takes a minimum of 1 month to schedule.

Our troop has a standard script for the ceremony. The Eagle and his family plug in the names of the folks they want to present certain portions of the ceremony. They do not have to follow the ceremony, they don't have to have a ceremony, we can just present it at a regular CoH.

I have one boy, he'll be 20 soon enough, who hasn't had a Court of Honor. Both of his parents were ill (still are) and he needed help. I got a group of folks together to make it happen. 3 weeks before his ceremony he called and cancelled it due to his parents health. He never rescheduled, even after numerous requests to get it done (from me)

He had his patch awarded to him about 1 year after he earned it, he finally came to the house and picked up all of his items. Letters, medals, certificates, flags. Very sad I think, my Eagle CoH was a very memorable experience for me, I wanted him to have the same.

I know of other kids who have been very deserving of a great ceremony who have'nt had one.

Also our troop pays for the Eagle kit (patch, pins, medal), embroidered Eagle Neckerchief, Campaign Hat (they really love this hat) and the perpetual plaque for the CO, and a special wooden Eagle with and engraved plate with thier name and BoR date for the Scout House. The family picks up the cost of the ceremony. We encourage punch and cookies/cake. They usually turn into sit down luncheons or dinners.

At our recent Council Dinner, we had 19 Silver Beavers (I was one of them, it was toooo cooool).

We were interviewed on camera a month prior by a professional video crew, and they showed it during our ceremony. That was kind of a WOW moment.

In the two council's I've been involved with, we've always notified recipients of the Silver Beaver, but never the DAM. We make it the nominators responsibility to get the DAM Recipient to the dinner, or we get sneeky with the spouse (in a good way). It's really fun when it's a couple, then you have to make sure they have a son in the program.

Good stuff!

At our recent Council Dinner, we had 19 Silver Beavers (I was one of them, it was toooo cooool).

We were interviewed on camera a month prior by a professional video crew, and they showed it during our ceremony. That was kind of a WOW moment.

In the two council's I've been involved with, we've always notified recipients of the Silver Beaver, but never the DAM. We make it the nominators responsibility to get the DAM Recipient to the dinner, or we get sneeky with the spouse (in a good way). It's really fun when it's a couple, then you have to make sure they have a son in the program.

Good stuff!

I'm a Bear, and a good 'ol Bear too.

Matt

WE4-51-2-03

WE4-45-1-07&08 staffer.

Congratulations d.a.m.

By the looks of things with your new user name, you've accepted the challenge of being a DAM recipient.

The award is supposed to be a surprise at the District Dinner. When I received my award I wasn't as surprised as I should have been. I had made my weekly trip to our Council Service Center. I saw my wife there talking with some folks. My wife volunteered me to be Asst Cubmaster 11 years ago and pretty much hadn't stepped foot into the service center since, so I know something was up. LOL

Like you I was, and still am, very humbled by the experience. It will give you cause to give leadership to your District as you have in the past, maybe more so that you know it has made a difference.

Great job!