KA6BSA

When I was a Boy Scout in 1957 we all had those belt hooks and the Scoutmaster required us to use it to hold our "pocket" knife. Funny a pocket knife you couldn't put in your pocket but I think the reason was that way the Scoutmaster could easily see which boys had a knife. I don't think we had anything like a toten'chip card and even if BSA had them we didn't use such a system of certification. We didn't have any specific knife safety training but young boys were more aware of how tools worked back then. Of course we did everything with our knives including pass idle moments with a game of mumbley peg (played by flipping the knife into the dirt to mark out territory in a square). The hook was definitely the only place we carried a knife... and it seemed a very Scouting thing to do. We even wore our uniforms to school the day of a troop meeting with a pocket knife proudly dangling from the hook.

I have taught knife safety to Scouts and over the years learned that the "multi-tool" type gadgets are not a good idea for the younger boys. It is usually during opening, closing, or trying to figure out the various kinds of locking devices that the boy cuts himself. And using them for whittling or other common tasks is not as safe because the handles are not ergonimic, comfortable or the blade is awkwardly set. The pliers are also a dangerous way to lift a Dutch oven lid. Many of the multi-tools have chisel-ground blades that are small but extremely sharp and can cause a deep cut with just a minor slip. The multi-tools have a definite value in camping service and I personally like the Leatherman products and Gerber look-alikes, but there are many imports that are so cheap that parents are likely to get one for their boy without knowing the hazards. They are not a substitute for a proper knife for a specific task... and I don't recommended multi-tools for the younger boys.

Well I am satisfied with the discussion and ready to move on... unless someone has more about the skunk!

I went and read the BSA books as Bob suggested. Now from Region 7 Voyager's last comment I see we have been discussing the wrong kind of "re-testing." So the question is about reviewing previous lower-rank materials with a boy going for a higher-rank conference. I think the best ways to make sure the boys retain the earlier knowledge is for the more advanced boys to do the teaching of this material to the new Scouts. Then this question of retesting won't even come up. And certainly the SM has better ways of spending the time at the conference on current progress.

Your question is retest the boy because he couldn't remember something and needed a minute to compose his thoughts? Or he got a knot all tangled up and needed a second try to be successful? Or start all over and do a completely new SM comference right after the first one... for what reason? If the boy is unprepared it would be good for him to understand the value of "Be Prepared" and go home to work on his skill and knowledge some more and return when he is ready. I think this question is at the judgement of the Scoutmaster, but a good one will know how to make a failed conference become a "learning process" to help the boy be encouraged to follow through to earn his rank. In doing that they may have "given away the answers" and retesting immediately doesn't seem fair. And the boy does not learn the value of Be Prepared.

Of course there are other ways to get the same Key award (medal and knot) but as a commissioner or committee member with your district or round table. Same 3 year tenure but different requirements for each different position.

About ASMs... I always thought for a position so vital and important to a troop's well-being that it was a whimpy title with the emphasis always on the Assistant. It would actually sound better to use to the official BSA designation of Scoutmaster Assistant. I know, we are so used to ASM it is unlikely ever in this universe that we will change.

I am amazed that the boys still have their partial blue cards to even have that situation! My own boys only evidence of previous work is usually just a wadded up ball of blue paper after it has gone thru the wash a few times in their Scout pants.

That solves the problem except for how to tell the council person that they are wrong and get over it! With volunteers in an organization like BSA it is different that in corporate business where people just say, "You are wrong do it this other way." To continue to get the needed cooperation with volunteers some finesse may be necessary to get the corrections made. The council person has no doubt told other people tha same incorrect information about MB updates and making the change could be embarrasing... not just "sending a memo" to fix it. Wish you success with that.(This message has been edited by KA6BSA)

Yes, of course you are right Bob White... my wording "not a BSA outing" was meant to make the point that it would not be an outing executed the way BSA intended. Where do you draw the line ... A troop (all the same boys and leaders of the unit) goes on an activity or campout and plays laser tag, they get a tour permit incorrectly filled out (not listing the prohibited activity) or they don't even file a tour permit, or they don't wear their uniforms, or they go to a campsite not approved by their council for BSA, or they even tell the parents it is not really a Scouting activity, but it is still the "troop" going camping. At what degree of breaking the rules is the outing no longer a valid BSA activity? Maybe you will only find that out when all the claims have been made in the lawsuits if a boy gets hurt. Parents would likely claim it was a troop activity to avoid their own responsibility, and the leaders would be claiming they were told the "troop" was going on a "non-Scouting" activity... whatever that means. Anyway I like the skunk topic better!

Thanks Bob White for clarification on the insurance... I don't know the details of that aspect but I do know that all BSA units should be getting tour permits on file for their outings. I have been through BSA insurance lectures at Round Table and it can get complicated. If a unit is not getting tour permits approved properly or if they are not fully disclosing the event's activity then the tour permit is not valid. My point is that it says right on the tour permit that the signature means you have a copy of the G2SS and are following those rules. A tour permit is necessary for all events other than those at the usual meeting place. Now that I made that statement there is probably a technical exceptions someone here will give the details. But the concept is pretty simple that the parents of the boys may not know what is going on and need to rely on the BSA tour permit process to trust that the activities are safe. My own sons have been to friend's birthday parties with laser tag and it isn't a big worry, but since BSA has it on the prohibited list those are the rules and you gotta follow them if you want it to be a BSA outing.

In my council the Eagle BOR expects to see at minimum 100 hours of actual work in the Eagle Project with at least 30 more hours specifically devoted to planning by the Scout. This is not 130 hours of wishing and whining and talking about becoming an Eagle but actual hours worked by the troop under the management of the Scout. Also the Eagle BOR requires that all the Blue Card stubs be attached to the Eagle application papers. Your Life Scout has no Blue Cards, and saying he had them doesn't mean anything. It sounds to me like he probably did not actually earn his way to Life Scout either. Getting troop transfer paperwork isn't difficult and loosing all record of his past achievements is just too suspicious. The rank of Eagle is characterized by the "giving back" of service by the boy to his troop and community, and just because the boy wants to be one of the 2% who can do that doesn't amount to anything unless he does the work. Don't be prey to his manipulations.

The recruiter patches in our council are blue for Cubs and red for Scouts, so I would encourage a new boy to go recruite a new Scout and get the new patch rather than wear the old Cubs color... and it isn't that hard to find a friend to start Scouting with.

As an adult leader in a troop you don't have the option of deciding whether you will follow the G2SS rules or not depending on your own opinions. When you as the leader sign a tour permit (that is the only way to be covered by BSA insurance on your outing) when you sign it you are afirming that you have a copy of the G2SS in your possession, you have read it and will follow those rules. If you don't then your Council should not issue the tour permit and the outing is by definition NOT a troop activity. If your are going on an outing with no tour permit, or one that is incorrectly issued, then you are not going on a BSA outing.

A few years ago at our Council's Scout Fair event there was a merit badge booth for Home Repairs. The counselors there were just lining up the boys asking them "Have you ever done this or that" and went down a long list of fixing household stuff until they said the requirements were met. It was really very superficial with no proof of anything and most of the boys caught on right away that if they just said "Yes" to everything for ten minutes they would get a very easy badge. Our Scoutmaster figured that out too and later when the boys brought their blue card to him he refused to honor it. At the time I didn't know what his real authority was in the matter but it seemed like the right thing for him to do not accepting the blue cards. The same Scout Fair there was a Fingerprinting badge booth and having only two requirements it was also very easy (and fun). But since the counselors there were really having the boys do the fingerprints, meeting the requirements and learning the material, the SM gladly accepted those blue cards. It wasn't that Home Repairs was too easy, it was that it didn't seriously meet the requirements that the SM would not honor the blue cards.(This message has been edited by KA6BSA)

I like it because it is short. Short is good when you are real hungry from doing fun Scout stuff! Still I think it would be difficult to remember... but then you have those cards.

Yes, I see it is an option according to the BSA Insignia Guide, but other than a new Scout not having sewn it on yet it is very unusual to see it missing. Why would a troop decide to not wear the World Crest? Who could possibly have an objection to being part of the world brotherhood of Scouting? Was that a decision of the SM, the troop committee or the PLC? It is difficult to imagine why even an individual would object to the patch let alone a whole troop. Since it is an individual option could a boy choose to wear it despite the troops rules? I know the long history of this patch too (going back to the World Jamboree in 1955) and originally it was a coveted international honor in the WOSM. As you know it was informally known as the "overseas patch." Some old-timers who earned it might have regrets about it now being worn by everyone, but since 1991 it has been a "symbol of membership in the World Scouting movement."(This message has been edited by KA6BSA)

People who have been in Scouting for years just can't wear all the patches they have accumulated, even with blankets and red jackets. Eventually that realization sets in and it becomes time to start a nice notebook collection using archival plastic pages with different sized pockets. The collection becomes its own resource of interest and pride.

The Scoutmaster making sure JLT is offered to his troops youth leaders is part of Quality Unit.

Next time someone asks why hunting is on the list of prohibited activities in the G2SS just tell them about this tragic event. This is a good example of why the emphasis in BSA for firearms is completely on safety awareness. No matter what the situation there is always the possibility for human error and a fatal mistake.

I have been following this topic and would like to know if any of this relates to Scouting? I mean, has BSA stated a position on it or done anything to indicate involvement in the issue?

For more than a year I have been using a free popup stopper from www.panicware.com that works well and lets normal windows open by holding the CTRL key down. I also generally like Lavasoft Ad-aware but on one of my computers installing it scrambled up all the windows icons in the start menu. Despite uninstalling it sometimes the icons still come up misplaced. You can delete old cookies with most browsers without searching for them with special software, and it is a good idea to periodically clean them out, but save any you need for sites you still use. If you delete the cookies for TV Guide you will need to register again to see your program listing. To get rid of all cookies on IE pull down the Tools, Internet Options menu, on the General tab click the Delete Cookies button. Other than some minor issues like the TV Guide I mentioned, deleting all your cookies usually doesn't do much noticable harm and may give you a much more secure computer as many cookies are data-miners not following the polite rules for simply making surfing more efficient. No matter what you do with popup stoppers or tossing cookies there will still be some web pages with pop-unders and sneaky browser hijack methods to get their garbage through to you.

Without OA flaps the boys could wear their Totin' Chip pocket flap and nobody would have anything to argue about where it goes!

Its is really a lot of work reading all these posts and weighing all the different positions on an issue. It is much easier to just go read the answers on any Scouting question in the one official book BSA published that spells it all out at every level. But I forgot exactally where I can get that book... maybe someone on the forum can tell me! Yes, I know, that is the point.

If Venturing had white loops then maybe we would not need the big white redundant Venturing patch on the right sleeve... that is there only to tell everyone who doesn't know it is a Venturing uniform. There is already embroidery above the right pocket for the same purpose. Can you imagine Boys Scouts being required to wear a conspicuous 3 by 3 inch "Boy Scouts" patch on their right sleeve?

There are some basic logical problems to solve in this issue of the "back to the future" space-time continumum. But when I was 15 years old I wouldn't take advice from anybody. Knowing that now means I don't need to try to figure out the consequenses in this paradox.

No reason to exclude a gazebo... just add it to the list and it becomes reality. There is really no limit for Troop15.