jmcquillan

"Additionally, I am just back from Mexico on a Scout Trip, and know that the Scouts down there, while patriotic as any, do not wear their flag on their sleeve."

Well, I'm not sure that Scouts in a lot of countries wear the flag of their country on their sleeve. And that's fine. To each his own. That's part of what makes this diverse world go 'round. But for me, I live in the good ol' USA, and I'm quite proud to wear my countries flag on my uniform.

With regard to the quote from the handbook, and how some see it as, "Notice it says "should" and not cannot", I've always been of the opinion that the words "should not" means "will not", and SM's should encourage their Eagle candidates to seek projects that will benefit those in the great wide world around them outside of Scouting. The purpose being that the Scout is more exposed to that world around him, and the unattended needs out there, and that the world out there is also exposed to Scouting, and all that boys learn in the Scouting community, skills, leadership, concern for community, citizenship, et cetera.

That, I believe, is the true measure of the Eagle. It's not just the talents he possesses, nor the leadership he can demonstrate, nor the skills he has to solve problems. It's all of that, PLUS...the demonstrated ability, desire, and capability to work on an unattended need in his community, thus lending his talents and skills to those in need. A valuable lesson all by itself, no matter how big or small the need he attends to.

Needs within the Scouting community itself, IMHO, are those to which all Scouts and Scouters should be lending their hands in cheerful service, (not only the OA, but they should lead the way), assuring that their own little part of the world is just what they want and need, and well maintained.

This all kind of reminds me of the days when hand-held calculators first appeared. School teachers tried (in vain) to exclude them from the classroom knowing that if Johnny learned how to add 2+2 by hand, he'd understand exactly why 2+2=4, and not just because the calculator told him it did. Same with signals. Same with quite a lot of the things we expose boys to in Scouting, no?

"Trouble is contacting that person."

There's the problem, right there. We're assuming that this person exists at all....

My practice, ever since I can remember donating to charity or anyone, has been to donate DIRECTLY to that organization that I wanted to give to, not to some clearing-house for donations. And I guess that's how I view the United Way...as nothing more than a clearing-house. They have administration and other costs that I don't want to support. If I give a dollar, I want all 100 cents of that dollar to go to the recipient for the purpose intended. The United Way has, therefore, never been an issue for me. I give DIRECTLY to Scouting. I give DIRECTLY to cancer research, I give DIRECTLY to a lot of organizations. And, outside of Scouting, I only participate and work in those volunteer charity organizations where I know with absolute certainty that 100 cents of my donated dollar is going DIRECTLY to the purpose. (I.E., I'm a member of my local Lions Club, where the main focus is eye research. And 100 cents of every donated or raised dollar we get goes DIRECTLY to the purpose...not to a middleman who has expenses that must be covered by part of the donated dollar.)

Aside from the present political debate regarding the United Way andt their view on Scouting, I think it's always better to give DIRECTLY, not indirectly, as is the case with the UW.

Experience over the years has shown that moderators and webmasters are denied access to this site for fear that they might mess it up. Soooo....they have no idea what the problems are.

The descriptors "new member", "junior member", "member", and "senior member" are designations put forth by the unseen webwizards who guard and moderate this site. Those forces are unknown. They're unseen. They're hiding in the dark places behind the banners and in the closets. They venture forth rarely, and even then, only in disguise. You'll never see them. You'll not know they're next to you. They'll come upon you when your unaware. They'll change your tag without your permission or knowledge. They are...the watchers...

On a lighter note...I agree with Rooster7. ALthough the clear majority of participants in Scouting in the US may be Christian, we welcome all. Certainly we've had a very healthy participation of other faiths in our troop over the years. And that has always presented both a challenge and opportunity for the Christian Scouts among our ranks, and our own selves, too, to learn more about the diversity of religion in this world. And that's good...

On the uniform question, I agree with others who indicate that the Class A uniform is something we've never required or even promoted as appropriate wear on the trail. They're a little expensive, and then frail, for the rigors of the trail. Add to the wear and tear the necessary removal and replacing of badges on new uniforms when the old wear out prematurely, and you've got the perfect ingredients for parental complaints. The uniforms are fine for troop meetings and ceremonial wear. But I've long thought that if the BSA desired a uniform in the woods, then they'd be well served by working with a real outdoor clothing manufacturer, like North Face, LLBean, et cetera, et cetera,...to design and provide rugged outdoor clothing of the modern fabrics and elements that are to be found in your local REI, EMS, Cabelas, et cetera. The technology is out there for real rugged clothing. And I don't think an outdoor uniform of that type would have to include all the badges and ranks as seen on the regular uniform. The outdoor clothing could be simply that which identifies the group as a unit, with some markings or a couple of patches. The kids might even like the idea that the colors weren't the regular Scout uniform colors. They could be similar to colors on the open market today. But they'd all be the same. Others on the trail and in the woods would easily identify the group as a team or unit or troop. The regular uniforms could be left for the indoor stuff, where they'll survive a little longer.

There used to be a signalling merit badge, but I think its gone the way of the dodo. No one seems to have an interest in semaphor anymore, as there seems to be no practical use. The advent of the cell phone, and the other technologies pretty much make that a skill that arouses little interest.

One thing that I've often wondered about, though, is how merit badges are supposed to give a Scout just a little taste of one field of endeavor or another. What happens when a Scout shows a real propensity for one, and achieves all the requirements? He pretty much has to stop there and go outside of Scouting to follow the trail. There's merit in that, for sure. But what if the BSA was to embark on an effort to provide different "levels" within a merit badge? Say level one is just for the rank requirements. Level two offers more about the subject, and has something to do with rank (palms for Star? palms for Life?). Level three is for the Scout who is really into the subject, and wants to know more, and more. Aggresive? Sure. Troops, Districts, and Councils would have to come up with counselor lists that would address the needs of the various levels. But I think it could be done. I also think it would give a Scout an opportunity to investigate the area of his interest even further, but within Scouting...where he seems to like it.

First I'll admit to a huge alck of knowledge about the Venture Program. Tha being said, and having taken a look at the link OGE provided, I don't see anything in the program description that obligates the Scouts to seek out their own resources, although it might be there in the fine print. What did catch my eye, as it does in all Scouting venues, is the child protection issue. And, if what "le Voyageur" is proposing is tantamount to an approved list of merit badge counselors, but for the Venture Program, I tend to think that it might be a good idea. But I guess my biggest question would be...if BSA has gone to the lengths it has to define the Merit Badge Counselor program, all its required registrations and such to address the youth protection issues, wouldn't they already have produced a format for doing the same in Venturing? Or....am I reading your proposal all wrong?

I guess that while I understand your concerns, I'd have to side with "innocent until proven guilty". Second or third hand information (hearsay), which is what yours would be to the SM, isn't usually reliable enough. If you had seen him yourself, or had a couple of Scouts who had, and would be willing to tell their tale, that might be reason to go to the SM. But even then, would that be grounds for the SM or the troop to take any action?

Yep...chuck boxes area bulky and can be heavy, but they have their place in Scouting. Tailgate camping is one place. And there's plenty of that to be had. I don't think that it's a bad thing either. We've done many a trip up into the White Mountains of New Hampshire where base camp is a regularly used site that we can drive close to, and carry the gear a short distance. From the base camp, we can do all sorts of day hikes into the mountains. We even send backpacking patrols out from there, and they return there after a few days.

Adult leader training teaches how they can be real assets, and they are. The hard part is teaching the kids how to use and not abuse them. How to keep them clean and orderly so meal preparation is easy. How to set up the dining tarp and kitchen area around them. It's not easy, but when they "get it", it makes tailgate, or resident camping where dining halls are not available easier for all. Our troop is blessed with sufficient adult leaders who love to cook, and know the hows and how nots such that every patrol has an adult mentor to guide them in cooking and cleanliness. That makes things a lot easier. And it also makes for clean chuck boxes and cooking gear being returned to the Scouthouse.

When I first joined Scouting as a leader, the flag upon my shoulder was something I wore with much pride. I still do. I fly the flag high on its pole at home, every day, and its lit up at night for all to see. That flag means many things to me, and I'm happy to see the Scouts in my troop standing side by side, saluting the flag at our color ceremonies, and wearing it on their shoulder. And I am a combat veteran. I have my purple hearts. I earned them in Vietnam. And I value them no less than "le Voyageur". I stand on the side of keeping the flag where it is, on the Scouts shoulder, for all to see.

le Voyageur,

Apologies aside, remember that the swiftest horse can not retrieve the word once spoken, or posted. I think you've set a tone now that might be real hard to get passed for many. Myself included.

"ozemu's" suggestion got me to thinking...try your chartered partner. Ask them for assistance in getting trained and uniformed leaders.

Go to this site for one set of plans:

http://usscouts.org/boyscouts/chuckbox.pdf

I'm sure there's others out there. Try using a search engine like "Google", and type in "chuck box" or "patrol box".

Although I've never done this myself, due to the fact that I live here, I have seen out of council (out of state) troops attend our summer camp with the intent of using it as a base camp from which they venture out on buses or in vans to visit the historical sites around the Greater Boston area (Concord, Lexington, Plymouth, Boston). Our camp, Camp Squanto, is located on the fringes of Miles Standish State Forest on the Carver/Plymouth town line in Massachusetts. One year at camp, a bus from Brooklyn, NY pulled into the parking lot, and a large troop arrived. At first I thought it was really nice that an inner city troop was getting out into the woods and visiting the origins of their countries history. Then, upon closer inspection, I found that the bus they arrived in was owned by the troop, and was plastered with decals of places they had been....from the east coast to the west coast of this country...as well as Europe...go figure. I suppose they didn't drive to Europe in the bus, though. :-)

Unlike "nldscout", in some councils, like ours, getting financial information about the council is like pulling teeth. There seems to be a little fiefdom type view of things, and the sharing of information like that is hard to come by. I'd be all for disclosure on the part of both the Councils and the National council, too.

In addition to all the good ideas above, you might try to get some information about your District and Council Training Committees. These committees are composed of both professional and volunteer Scouters, and their job is to schedule and provide training at their respective levels. You might be able to get some of them to come to a troop and/or committee meeting to assist you in explaining to the adults in your troop what training is all about, and how valuable it is. Many adults view training as something that creates an "obligation" on their part, and they're just a little scared of that. Having those who do training as their job on your side might give a little more leverage with your folks.

slontwovvy,

Sounds like you're doing it all right. That being the case, I can only make a couple of suggestions based on our own troop experience.

Many times we would forget to check the school calendar, or have the boys check thier own personal calendars for things like conflicts with sports. You might try that, but I'll guess that you already do.

At one point we spent the better part of one meeting towards the end of the school year having the patrols making lists of trips they wanted to do, and places they wanted to go. Then, at the same meeting we had the SPL ask for these suggestions and write them all on a flip chart. The Scouts would go over the list and finally agree on a list of proposed trips. The PLC, SM, and Troop Committee would spend time planning just when those trips might be able to take place. At the beginning of the next school year, the SPL would review the list with the troop at the first meeting. The list would then be sent home to each Scouting family so that Mom & Dad could help the their Scout compare it to the family calendar. In that fashion, we at least got everyone to agree that it was still OK, or not, andthen necessary changes would be made. We still had no-shows and those who would back out, but we usually had good attendance.

Are the no-shows Scouts who sign-up and just don't come? Or do they just not sign-up for the trip? Our policy was that once you paid any fees required for food and such, those fees were not refundable unless there was a pretty good reason, especially after the food was purchased and the reservations were paid for. We felt that the Scouts really needed to feel some ownership and responsibility to the troop and their fellow patrol members.

Oh, and many times, if trips are repeated too often, they can become less desireable for the older kids.

Sooooo...you see....it's easy to understand....

For both Boy Scout Troops and the OA, the rules governing the division between youth and adult are the same...

...except for the OA. :-)

Congrats, Mike...and also to Mrs. Mike.

Just out of curiosity, who picks the destinations for your camping trips? Who designs the program? If it's the adult leaders who are making those decisions, the kids have no vested interest in the trips. If it's the kids who are picking the places to go, then they have no one to blame but themselves. I know this, because I've been through it. When I first started in Scouting, the adult leaders I worked with pretty much did all the planning, and made all the decisions about where to go and when. Low attendance told us something, and training (for me) told me a lot more. After that, we left it to the troop through the PLC, with SM guidance, of course. Their plans were presented to the TC for approval and support after, and only after, the SM was pretty sure that the TC would, indeed, support the calendar.

If you're not doing that presently, try letting the Scouts decide what trips they want to do, with encouragement from the SM to keep them as Scouting trips, and not trips to the Pizza Parlor....of course. :-)

It's a big job, and the shoes you'll wear will wear out and need replacement frequently. But if you've got the heart and mindset to do the job...like you really want to...then go for it. Understand, though, that the payscale in most councils for DE's is very low to start, and does not come close to matching that of private industry. But if you're not placing the money as a top priority, then I'd say you've got you ducks in a row.

Good Luck.

nldscout,

Nice idea. The transition from "boy" to "adult" is difficult for an 18 year old. He "feels" like he should be treated as an adult, and so we do. But he also is still a kid in many ways, and has a lot to learn still. He will only learn if given the opportunity. In our troop we make it our business to treat all the boys as young adults, with increasing respect and allowance for setting their own goals and agendas as they grow. This way, we hope that upon reaching his 18th birthday, if the Scout stays with us, he already feels like he's being treated as a leader. The transition from boy leader to adult leader thus becomes a little less trying for all.

But, the young man, not being all that far removed from the other "young men" in the troop, will still feel more kinship with them than he does with the "adult" leaders, so we make allowances for that. Responsibilities are given according to ability and stature. Tenting and meals on camping trips is encouraged to be with the adult leaders. The young ASM is treated with all due respect and friendship as do the adults treat each other. Those young men who stay with us usually have no problem "seeing" the difference in their new position, and we don't "make" it an either/or decision for them to make...adult vs. scout...they come into their own when they're ready.

Dedicated Dad,

A Tailor Merit Badge...great idea!! I've always thought that Scouting should offer a Sewing Merit Badge. Not only would that attend to the problem of patches and badges, but it would serve to teach tent repair, pack repair, and other sundry needs on the trail.

Good idea!!

Anyone out there in Texas reading this??????