jmcquillan

Having a Scout as the Chaplain's Aide, without having an adult Chaplain works fine, if the Scout has an adult advisor who understand what Scouting is looking for...services that serve all, not just one religion. Our troop has never had a Chaplain, but we've always had a Chaplain's Aide. When I first became SM, our Aide was Protestant. His parents took the time to speak with their minister about the Scouts responsibilities, and the minister filled the gap by being an advisor or sorts for the Scout and his duties. Since then, we've had both Jewish and Catholic Aides, using the same process with their Rabbi's and Priests. As long as the Scouts religious leader is willing to assist, it works quite well.

I can't think of specific publications or websites out there at the moment that might attend to your question, (you might look deeper into this site or USSCOUTS.org), but if there's anything the BSA does better than anyone else, it's publishing information about the verious and sundry parts of the organization and program. You might want to visit your local Scout Shop or Service Center.

I would think that the trailer would be covered under the normal property insurance policy that a chartered partner would have on its own property...eg. building, furnishings, etc. You might want to check. They may even be able to attach a rider to that property policy specifically for the trailer.

Liability and/or insurance for damage while being towed may very well fall under the automobile policy of the person towing it. Can't be sure though.

Best thing would be to talk directly to an insurance agent. Otherwise, contact you Council office for advice.

scouterjack,

I believe that many of the ills suffered by WB and the elitist appearance that WBger's have attained may be due only to the exclusionary tactics of the course outline, as participants are supposed to be "invited" to take the course. That can appear quite exclusionary to others who may have served as long in Scouting, but haven't been recognized in the Scouting public enough to be invited. I've served on a number of WB staffs, and have had my four beads for a while, and share the opinion of our Council members who work on WB, that it should be open to all Scouters trained at the Scoutmaster Fundamentals level, with no pretense of speciality via invitation. We open the doors to all who desire. The mystery may still be there for those who choose not to take the course, and perhaps that breeds a certain amount of elitism with them, but, so be it. You can't please everyone, especially if they choose not to participate. But the door is always open, and the respondents are many. And the elitist mystery surrounding WB trained Scouters rapidly disappears.

As for the changes? Only time will tell. I loved the experience of the old WB, and felt that the outdoor skills sessions contained therein were key to reinforcing the leadership skills taught, in a Scouting environment, rather than a corporate environment, which I've also taught...so I know the difference. I understand that there will be a new course covering outdoor skills for all leaders, Cubs, Boy Scouts, Venture, and that's great. It looks like it will cover a lot of ground. But I still have a concern that the lack of, or limited outdoor experience in the new WB might take away from the experience as a whole. But then, I'm old, and rely upon memories that may be going the way of the dinosaur. Only time will tell. We'll wait and see.

Off-topic, sorry...but...

Rooster. What is that technique you use to get the double post each time you post here?:-)

Having served on a number of WB staffs, I've seen this go a couple of ways, and usually, there aren't any complaints. A couple of the courses I served on required full time wearing of the campaign hat only for the "senior" staff (SM, ASM's). All others wore the BSA baseball hat. The only exception was the final weekend ceremony, where all staff wore the campaign hat.

Others I've been on required the campaign hat for all, male or female. There was never any question about whether or not the campaign hat was authorized for women. I'd find that a rather foolish dictate, if it exists. Unlike yourself, none of the female staffers I know ever had a problem with the campaign hat. Of course, most of the folks I've served with have owned the hats for many years, and I would admit that it's quite as expense for someone who is "volunteering" their time and energy to be on staff.

Rooster,

The boys you speak of are, unfortunately, more the rule than the exception. But that's life, and we deal with what we get. Instilling the Scouting Spirit is not always going to bear fruit with a Scout that has true Scout Spirit. But, we go on, and are glad for the opportunities we've been given to help those boys along the way. My experience has been that even those who lacked bundles of Scout Spirit gained something. I've had many of my former Scouts come back to visit, and say thanks for the experience, the time, and the interest invested in them by the adult leaders. And that brings a smile to me.

It's the truely extraordinary boy, that we meet every so often, that raises our eyebrows, and our hopes. Those are the boys who are adored by the girls, emmensely good in High School Sports (all of them, it seems), and proud to wear their Scout Uniform and display what they're part of. They love to learn. They love to lead. And they're not embarrased by the knowledge that they're Boy Scouts. That, in my mind, is really extraordinary Scout Spirit...so much beyond what I view as the norm, that I place it is a category all by itself.

I've always expected a certain sense of Scout Spirit from each boy. And I've rarely found a boy whom I'm truly disappointed in for his utter lack of it. Most kids have enough that it will someday make a difference. And in 20 years, I've only run into 3 of those really remarkable young men. I'll always remember them fondly. But then again, I try to remember them all, and the spirit and fun they had.

Being from the new England area myself, I can't quite imagine dealing with a WB course where the participants come from such a wide area, therefore my suggestions are limited. But...

How are the other members of your patrol doing? If they haven't completed their tickets yet, or been beaded yet, any chance you could have the ceremony as a patrol? My patrol ended up doing just that at a district function here, much more by accident than design, but it worked. And having everyone get together from an area as large as you're suggesting seems to say do it once, and do it together.

Just a thought concerning electronic communication...

It seems to me that some of the most rugged terrain in the world is within the Himalayan Mountains (Mt. Everest). Even some of the terrain in this country can come pretty dern' close (McKinley, etc.). And I seem to remember that, even though the folks who attempt those peaks travel using the buddy system, they also carry electronic communication. I don't see it as false security. I see it as a optional means of getting help if necessary, and checking upcoming weather conditions. Sure, you can travel without it, and many do, like Mike. But I find that the little weight the cell phone adds is quite comfortable when out in the wilderness by myself, or with the children of others.

On the GPS issue, I would agree with Mike that you should rely on the map and compass rather than the GPS. But they can be fun if you've got one. It's fun to use them to check just how good you think you are.

I have to agree with those that nix the idea of mandating the march for rank advancement. I've never done that, and our situation is pretty much like yours. We have a troop of about 60 boys. About a third to half show up for parade duty. About a quarter to a third are in the high school band. The rest are either busy with family or just don't want to participate.

What I do tell the scouts, though, is that I do not want to see them standing on the roadside, or riding their bikes along the parade route, or doing anything that makes me wonder why they have time to goof off, but not be with us in the parade. That all started years ago when a group of the boys didn't show for the parade, but were found to be riding their bikes along the route talking with their friends in the troop marching in the parade. So, I told them, either I see you in uniform in the parade, or in band uniform in the band, or not at all.

Yep, I agree...with lots of the stuff above.

We haven't used real walkie-talkies, but we've used those Motorola Talk-abouts. They've got about a two mile range on level ground. Trouble is, if you get into hilly terrain, you can lose contact easily, but they're better than nothing. We also have an adult who always brings his cell phone. It's not a regular cell phone. It operates off of satelites, so it doesn't matter what terrain your in. It's only for emergencies, it's liight weight, and it's good to know it's there. It's a little more expensive than my pocket will allow, but, then again, it's his.

On the trail, we always have enough adults that we can divide the group into fast and slow groups. I'm always with the slow group. I'd like to say that it's because I like to take my time and actually see the forest and the creatures that are there. Walking too fast, you tend to miss everything and everywhere you've been. But, I'm just slow. It doesn give me the advantage of being able to see the forest, and the trees, and the creatures, though.

We pick way-stations along the trail and the fast group has to wait there for the slow group to catch-up. THe fast group has 2 adults to make sure the kids abide by the rules. There's always a point, and a sweep, and to date, we haven't lost anyone, or lost our way.

Although we may be getting into simple semantics here, I like to think that the Supreme Court decision in favor of the Boy Scouts did not uphold our "right to discriminate"...it uphelp "right to choose"...our right to "freedom of association". I know it may just be semantics to many, but I like to think of the issue that way, not as a right to discriminate, which leaves a very bad taste with me.

We do, indeed, have a right to choose who will lead our scouts, and what kind of example they will set. Lifestyle is part and parcel of that image with me. Thus, we "choose", and we choose based on values that are common to all of us. Although a person of the homosexual persuasion may claim that his values are the same, his choice of lifestyle goes against the grain of that claim and the base values that we hold dear.

Probably just semantics, but to me, there's light years of difference.

jrakes,

Just a point of information, although I would suspect you know this, the SPL is supposed to be elected by the scouts in the troop, not appointed by the Scoutmaster, except in very unusual circumstances. If your troop is very new, very young, very inexperienced, then it might be a good idea for the SM to start things off by appointing the SPL, or if you've had a mass migration of older scouts due to graduation, etc. Otherwise, the scouts should elect him. It's not always possible to avoid the popularity thing, it happens. But it's something we must deal with if we're to make the program and the troop truly "boy lead" and "boy run".

kdhoogland, that's an interesting idea you've posed with your reference to patrols having adult advisors. It seems to be beyond what the Scouting program suggests, but still an interesting idea.

How big is your troop? How many patrols? Does each patrol have these advisors? Was recruiting adults easy? How do you refrain from making your position a Den Leader for a Boy Scout Patrol, that would seem to be something easy to fall victim to...? Where do the advisors fall in the hierarchy of the adult leadership? Troop Committee members? Are Assistant Scoutmasters used?

I agree with what sst3rd said in his first post above, and I also agree with what P_swigs said about bribing a scout to wear the uniform. That doesn't set much of an example. In fact, it sets an example we should not be using.

IMHO, an exception to this all would be if your troop was located in an area where the average income might be so low that many scouts and families can't find the extra money to purchase a whole brand new uniform. In that case, I'd at least require everything from the waist up (shirt, etc.). But even here, there are uniform exchanges around that might provide what you're in need of. But by all means, don't reward the scout for wearing the uniform. In order to place Scouting on a level playing field with the sports that will compete for his time and interest, the uniform needs to be as important to the boy as his baseball uniform is...or at least as close in importance as we can get it.

[Ed - jmc steps up to the mike. Doffing his cloak of conservatism and donning his cloak of invisibility, he faces the gathered multitude and presses forth to the microphone, saying...]

"Whoohooo....go Jesse..."

[jmc quickly exits the stage, invisible to all, gathers his pile of cloaks, and disappears into the night....]

Years ago, we had a boy in the troop who had Tourets Syndrome. He wanted to be in Scouting, but his behavior problem was such that, with none of the troop leaders being trained in any profession dealing with that kind of behavior, we opted to require at least one of his parents to be in attendance at any Scout function their son attended. We didn't, and still don't, think that this was too large a requirement. Volunteering to be a Scout leader should not also require one to become a trained behavioral specialist. In this case, that parents agreed. They felt that they would do just about anything to help the boy, especially where his problem would ostracize him from many activities. So, in that type of case, I'd suggest making the parents a part of the troop through that avenue. They become responsible for keeping their own sons behavior at acceptable levels. It even helps the rest of the boys in the troop come to understand what the one boy is going through, and the other adults.

When it comes to "normal" boys who either just decide to be ornery, disrespectful, or some other kind of problem, we really need to find a basis for any discipline meeted out in the Scout Oath and Law, and that's not all that hard to do, as long as we understand the Oath and Law ourselves. The key thing to remember is that the one problem boy can not take over and gain all the attention of the adult leaders to the detriment of the rest of the troop.

I would offer my congratulations to the young man for a job well done.

But now I offer my personal experience. I served as District Advancement Chair in my district for three years, some time ago. In that time, I only came across two boys at Boards of Review who were up for Eagle at this age. One was quite an extraordinary young man, and having followed his progress after attaining Eagle, just out of curiousity, he was quite capable of staying active in his troop and performing at the level an Eagle should. A remarkable young fellow. The other, unfortunately, found that the pinnacle had been reached, and there was nothing left to do. He was somewhat burned out with merit badges, and had no incentive to earn any palms, as the first did. He eventually left Scouting for other interests as he "matured".

The rest of the young men I came to know through this process were, almost to a boy, aged 16 or over, with a couple at 15. During the Boards of Review, it became quite apparent to me that there was a vast difference in how the older boys attacked their goal, and what attaining it meant to them. While the younger boys were certainly happy with achieving the goal, their interviews presented a far different character as an Eagle. This is not to say that I think 13 is too young, although I might. But, by the book, it is possible to get there.

And, although I would never advocate or suggest an age limit for Eagle, as that would be against the rules of the BSA, I do feel that most boys don't truly come to the full realization and appreciation for the goal, the process, and the leadership learned along the way, until they're a little older than 13, say 15-16. And, then again, I've met many a boy who reached 18, and still had little clue about leadership and what the Eagle really should mean to them.

But, this is not to take away from the young man presented to us above. I wish him well, and continued success in Scouting.

I believe you're right about boys coming to the realization by themselves in time. But my experience has been that sometimes, the boys and their parents need to be reminded (gently counselled) about the decisions they may have to make in order to give their best efforts to all that they get involved in.

I've been participating in a couple of discussion groups at other websites regarding this issue. It's a sad commentary that the PC crowd has gotten this much publicity on such s stupid issue. A fine example of the PC madness going too far, again.

But I think we should remember that Mother's Day and Father's Day are both celebrated on a weekend when school is not is session, or at least most schools. If this school and it's baloney-headed leadership is not is session on the weekend, families that are opposed to the policy will likely still celebrate the day. The troubling thing here is that the PC crowd and gay community at this school seem to be trying to insert themselves where they shouldn't be...like in everyone else's lives at the school. What next? Christmas? Oh...I forgot, Jewish school. Hanukkah? Does that day have any importance in the school setting? How about 4th of July, or Thanksgiving, or New Years? At what point do we stop placating the PC crowd and use a little common sense?

Oh, and "children of homosexuals"?, still laughing.:-)

Mike,

This is gonna sound silly, but for the uneducated (unejikatid), all I remember from chemistry class and working on cars (catalytic converters) was the rotten egg smell associated with sulphur. Is there any smell associated with the stuff you're talking about? Would one be likely to not only keep the bugs away, but our own species, too? Or, when in the woods, doesn't that metter?:-)

All the other members of my family work in the tree and landscape business, outdoors all the time. And they suggest to me, as is their policy in the business, that the only effective stuff is that which has DEET in it. But even then, clothing should be appropriate to the location, the color should be light so that the ticks show up, cuffs should be tucked into socks, and a whole body check should be done once or twice a day.

And thus, I am enlightened with regard to the GSUSA and its program. Thanks, Kevin. BTW, I don't have a daughter, so I never had the opportunity (or reason?).

A little research regarding the effort I've seen on Cape Cod reveals the following:

1. It's not being done as an individual Scout project, it's being performed as a Troop project in conjuntion with another local organization (Lions or something like that, but that's unclear), and members of the local National Guard (who provide the tent and some personnel).

2. It's kept off to one end of the rest area, out of everyone's way, but readily available for anyone who might simply like a cup of coffee, for free. I'm told they also provide cold water and conversation for all who just want to get off the road for a spell and collect their thought, and stretch their legs.

The folks who thought this thing up seem to have done so without any pretense of advertising or fund raising (no funds are collected, no donations taken, so I'm told). It's simply a good neighbor effort to provide something on-the-road that drivers would have to get off the road and fight the local tourist traffic for if it wasn't there. Neat idea. They provide the service only during the non-school months, and only on the weekends when traffic is heaviest. The fact that the Scouts participating are wearing a uniform would seem to do a lot for advertising all by itself...nothing else required there.

Not everyone who stops at the rest area partakes, but those who do are thankful for what is offered...so I'm told by those who have stopped there.

As I said before, this isn't as Eagle project, and not even a project for an individual Scout. But it seems to be one heck of a good idea for a good turn for the troop and all involved.

eisely,

The CC signature is required on both the Eagle Project Proposal form and the Eagle Application.

jrakes,

If only life were as simple as you would like it to be. I fear that, although I admire your commitment, you're likely setting yourself up for disappointment as Scouting is not, and probably never will be, on the same level playing field as school sports. And it's simply not as important as family, school itself, and church, so those activites win every time. School sports, on the other hand, is a big draw on the attentions and dreams of most young men, and Scouting can not compete with that, no matter what we may try to do to make it so.

Scouting can be a very important part of a young man's life, but an either/or choice, (sports or scouts), presented to most young men, will only serve to drive them away from Scouting. Accomodation must be made for all the activities that parents allow their kids to get involved with today. And, as I said above, therein lies the key to successful Scouting: encouraging parents to help their kids plan a schedule of activities that will allow the boys to give 100% in each that he enrolls in. In all the years I've been in Scouting, I've seen many parents who allow their kids, even encourage their kids, to get involved in far too many activities. Burn out comes quickly. School work inevitably suffers. (By the way, I've always had a policy that Scouting comes AFTER school work. When any parent tells me that their sons school work is suffering, and he's spending too much time in outside activities, there's two things I do. First, I try to encourage the parents to look at the kids schedule and fix it fo that their son has the right amount of time to spend with the few things he can do well, and, like I said, give 100% to. Second, I'll tell the wayward Scout that his school work comes first. Scouting will have to wait until his parents are satisfied that the grades are where they should be. The kids in the troop all know my policy, so they're usually pretty good at keeping the nose in the books. Scouting is no replacement for good school work. You'd be surprised at how many parents look at this attitude as something from Mars. What they expect is what a school coach would say, something more akin to pleading that the kid be allowed to stay, but telling the kid that he needs to do better in school. Where' the commitment to something higher than sports there? It isn't there. Parents are usually quite surprised when they hear me say that school is more important than what I'm doing with their kids.)

And, I don't think it's realistic to expect 110% from any child in anything, school, family, scouting, etc. The best a child can do is give his/her all, and to me, that's 100%, or darn close to it. I hear a lot of commitment in your comments, and I admire that. But don't set your standards too high, or both you and the boys you hope to serve may be very disappointed.

Good Luck, though.