jmcquillan

I don't think it's necessarily a sign that the troop is in trouble. Take stock of the rest of your assets.

Are you still getting cross-overs from Webelos each year? How many vs. what other troops are getting in your town? Are they staying?

Are the older scouts still quite active? Do they participate in troop activities regularly? Are they having a good time? Do your camping trips end up with littlt participation? Are the kids not interested in the the things that they help plan?

The fact that they reach Life and then sit there for a while isn't cause for concern all by itself. I've seen many Scouts in our area do just that, and sit on Life Rank for a year, or two, or three. As long as they are still active, camping, teaching, participating, leading, setting the example...et cetera...the troop is still enjoying the good life. But if they reach Life and sit, and don't camp, and don't participate, and look bored and have little interest in the things the troop does...then that is cause for concern. The rank thing all by itself is just a small thing to watch.

I remember a boy who never reached higher than Second Class in our troop. He stayed, and stayed, and camped, and participated, and his experience was invaluable for the younger scouts. He never held an elected leadership position, but he knew how to lead. He also knew how to direct attention to those who were elected. He was quite an astonishing fellow. At 18, he left the troop for college...still Second Class...but told us he wouldn't change a thing. He loved Scouting, but had little interest in the "patches and stuff", as he called it. There are others like that out there.

Very few of the Chartered Organizations in our area get involved with their troops or packs. Our troop was, at one time, chartered to a church. There were no members of our committee or leadership from that church. Nor were there any Scouts from that church in the troop. The church pretty much lost count of us, and, although we tried, there seemed nothing we could do to get them interested in the troop. (They were the CO before I got involved, and this was long before they were called CO's.) We got ourselves another CO, a Legion Post, and although they provided the flag, they never really got involved. There's no interest. It almost seems that there are organizations willing to "sponsor" a troop, but want nothing more to do with it...no time...no interest...so we pretty much go forward on our own, obtaining our own leadership, our own Scouthouse, our own Scouts, our own money, et cetera. And, we're not alone in our area in this regard.

There are, indeed, very religious folks out there who don't attend church. But whatever faith they participate in likely have some sort of leader who can serve the part. In the case of the family that deos not participate in an organized religion, perhaps practicing at home, the BSA allows for a letter from the candidate stating what his beliefs are, and how they impact his life, and how he fulfills his Duty to God. The letter of recommendation that usually comes from the parents can serve to reinforce that statement and how the Scout fulfills his duty to God.

While I'm not a fan of those who pierce things other than their ears, or the tattooing faces and necks, to each his own. And as long as they took care of themselves, I think that would mee the standard of clean, yes. The pierced ear, the tattooed arm or back are fine with me, and that's how I approach the subject. And cleanliness fits right in there for me.

I do think, however, that it would be a real hoot if suddenly we found out that BP had "BRITANNIA" across his chest.

While I do, indded, understand persoanl taste, and the abhorance one may have for tattoos and piercings, I pose tyhe following question for your consideration. This is a real-life situation, and I'd just like to see where you folks would stand if you ran across it in your troop.

You've been with your troop for, well, going on 20 years, and some time ago, a boy graduated out of your troop as an Eagle. Probably the best Eagle you've ever seen. His qualities were the kind that you wish every boy could have, but know that only a few will have. This young man went on to college, and graduated with high honors. He went to a military college. During his college career, a war broke out in the Middle East (Gulf War), and he was called out of school to duty. Upon his return, he graduated, came back to the area, got a job, and came to a Scout meeting seeking to get back into the troop. He's welcomed with open arms, and becomes one of the best ASM's you've had. He's great with the kids, they follow his lead, he's a natural for the next SM. Then the troop goes to summer camp. At the swim check, first day, you notice that somewhere along the line, he got a tattoo.

What do you do? How do you feel? Does this fellow who once upon a time you held in such high regard suddenly become flawed in your mind? Do you hold him in less regard now? Is he still SM caliber? I know how I felt when he came back, but this whole discussion makes me wonder how some of the members here might have percieved him.

OK, Dedicated Dad. I got nothing, absolutely nothing to trade. But I'm dying to know how to do those neat things you listed above. Do tell, please?

Those are all great ideas, but I wonder how easily it would be to get National to go along with creating or recreating them. It's been my understanding that Merit Badges are usually dropped when National takes stock of how many Scouts are actually working on and earning them. Lack of participation seems to be the rule for dropping a Merit Badge.

The woodworking ideas would be great, and might be easily counselled as there seems to be many adults these days who work with wood, either professionally or as amateurs. The Blacksmith one might be difficult in areas like the Northeast where the trade is all but a dying art. I only know of one Scouter, an older gentleman, who practices it. Getting counselors for that one might prove difficult.

I think the Stalking one might have to have a name change in order to be PC.

Oh, and concerning both the woodworking ideas and the lumberjack idea, isn't there some obscure rule (maybe not so obscure) in Scouting that Scouts aren't allowed to use power equipment like chainsaws and skill saws? Or are they allowed under adult supervision? Seems crazy, but I thought that was a rule. They can use guns, why not power equipment?

LOL, I can just picture a troop trying to find a place and a counselor for the Frontiering idea here in Massachusetts.

I still like the idea of a Sewing Merit Badge. Not just for patches, but also for tent and clothing repair on the trail.

Anyone out there know if there's a merit badge specific to cold weather camping? Things like making muclucks (sp?) and such?

FScouter,

You're absolutely correct. But you fail to take into account the over-confidence that some of us succumb to prior to hitting the darned little "post" thingy. I'm looking for another little thing to hit to edit posts that I fail to go over, and over, before posting. A fault that seems all to common in my posts.

Oh...and how do you guys italicize things? That's one I haven't yet figured out....go figure.

"But I think it best we move to a point where a person is judged by the content of their charactor and not by their appearance."

Bingo, OGE. Well said.

Well then, by the definitions offered, my sons and I, and the Mrs., for she has a tattoo also, must be seeking attention, and we all must have a character flaw.

Funny, I've always perceived myself to be a rather upstanding kind of guy. Benn a Scout Leader for over 20 years. Been a member of the Lions Club for 5 years. Been on countless school committees, including the Citywide Parents Council in Boston when Judge Garrity was enforcing the school busing issues. Even been to and back from a little Asian country back when the fightn' was going on (got the holes to prove it). But there must be a character flaw there. Hmmmmm...darned if I can see it. Oh, wait...it's on my arm.

Well then, Dedicated Dad, we have at least one thread subject where we're pretty much on opposite sides of the coin. With regard to the tattoo thing, that's a non-issue, as every state I'm aware of where it's legal (and that's most) outlaws the practice on anyone younger than 18, or the age of consent in that state. BTW, I have a couple. So does my oldest son...the one who is still jump-qualified, even though he's been out of the Army Rangers for a few of years. Oh, and he had a pierced ear in High School...since grown out...it was a fad thing. And he earned his Eagle. And my youngest, the ex...er...I mean Marine has a couple of tattoos. Oh, and he had a pierced ear in High School...since grown out...it was a fad thing. He got to Life Scout, and then turned aside for other ventures...like 4H, honors courses at school...that sort of thing.

Point is, a sweeping generalization like yours is pretty mean-spirited. Yes, there probably are lots of folks out there who let their kids run wild, but there's more that don't...many more. And tattoos, pierced ears don't make a hill 'o beans worth of difference. They're good kids, and they grow up better, because of Mom & Dad. But, you certainly are entitled to your opinion, no matter how sweeping a negative generalization it may be.

Of course, as I just noticed, in a thread like this, with a subject like this, one would expect that all the current posters are "senior" members.

What does that tell us?

Mike's probably right on the LMHO thing. It would be a much more Scout-like version of the internet-forum-popular "LMAO".

Dedicated Dad said....

"Piercings on boys is an obvious sign of irresponsible anti-social parenting and regardless shouldnt be allowed to be worn during scout functions."

Hold on there, guy! I'd bet that statement might rile some feathers out there in the Scouting world...or any world for that matter. While you may harbor that as your personal opinion, that's a pretty broad and negative generalization about the rest of us.

Or, was that an attempt at humor that simply lacked the little smiley thing?

sctmom,

Remember that it's not so much the amount of physical labor in an Eagle project that makes it an Eagle project. It's more the process and leadership that counts. Anyone can participate in paving a walkway, but not everyone can go through the process of the planning, the thinking, the obtaining of permission and materials, the scheduling of the work force, the pictures, the public relations coverage, and then the report. I've seen Eagle projects that were very small and very large, but everyone qualified. I had a young man once build a canoe landing on a local river. It was needed, for sure, but it was a small project. The process he had to follow, with all the local, state, and federal permits, the planning and scheduling of manpower to assist in all those efforts, the physical work, and then the report took well over 200 manhours to accomplish. He had to attend public hearings and present his project before commissions, and change his design and project as necessary. Then, he had all the other parts of the project to accomplish, too. He learned quite a bit in that project, and eventually went to work in the environmental planning business after college. That was, indeed, an Eagle project, even though the resulting physical elements were quite small.

And Eagle projects do not need to result in success, either. I've seen projects that involved townwide efforts with much coordination with the US Post Office. They were very good projects with admirable intent. But after the project was planned and implemented, very few of those for whom it was intended decided to participate. (They were efforts with the Post Office to have postal delivery folks aware of senior citizens in town, and watchful of mail deliveries that might indicate a senior citizen at home, alone, in trouble. The intentions were wonderful, and the town fathers and Post Office loved the idea. But too few senior citizens opted to participate, for whatever reason.) Although the intended result failed, the projects were deemed successful, as the planning, and leadership through the process were quite admirable. These boys recieved their Eagle Awards.

I differ with you with regards to the church projects. That is a favorite around here. One element of finding and planning an Eagle project that I always tried to impress on the Scouts was that the project should fulfill an unattended need. Most often, things don't get sone around a churc or town because there's not enough manpower or money. Eagle projects that attend to these needs, IMHO, show both caring and leadership.

You're right in that where the GSA sets a minimum target for time spent, the BSA does not. But most SM's I know around here use the unwritten target of 100 hours when counselling candidates. We've seen some done with as little as 80 manhours, and some that took almost 500 manhours. The general feeling is that it takes about 100 manhours to properly plan, lead, and execute a project of value to both the recipient, and the Eagle candidate.

DUH...next time I'll read the question twice...just to make sure I understand it. I will agree with the other posters, though.

I, too, am no big fan of the Merit Badge College, and avoided it as much as I could. In fact, I really had some problems with merit badges at summer camp. Each year I would make it my business to observe some of the sessions my scouts were attending, and found that the coverage and attention given to many of the badges was quite inadequate when compared to the book. I frequently made my concerns known to the Camp Director, but they pretty much fell on deaf ears.

One example was the Riflery Merit Badge. Although there were amply qualified instructors at camp, they only had one week, one hour a day, to cover the material. The adults in our troop were many times aghast at the little time spent on safety. So...with the volunteered help of the many NRA members in our troop, we made it our business to teach that badge, and Shotgun, at home. It took much more time than at camp, but we were certain that the safety issues had thoroughly been attended to, and the scouts had a much better understanding of the material, the guns, their use and misuse. But that's just one extreme example. Environmental Science was one that usually was covered quite well at camp, but the writing exercises usually kept the scouts up quite late at night.

There is no nirvana. We just have to be picky, and vigilant.

Nice likable guy or not, it sounds like the SPL is not ready for the job, otherwise he'd be doing it. If sacking him in favor of another is not where you want to go, you might want to counsel both, separately. Are you the SM? If so, counsel the SPL to make it his business to actually do the job he was elected to do, even if it was a popularity contest. Impress upon him that unless he performs the functions of the job, he can't get rank advancement credit for just wearing the patch. Counsel the more aggressive Scout to use his talents to help the SPL learn to do his job, rather than doing it for him. That's a win-win situation.

Depending on the business to be attended to, I would always reserve the last 15-20 minutes of the meeting for announcements and last checks on trip planning. If there were rank awards of merit badges to be presented, we would use that time, as that is the time when the entire troop is in formation, and usually, most of the parents had arrived at the scouthouse to pick up their sons. Of course, this was only the "immediate recognition" thing. At subsequent Courts of Honor, we would recognize those Scouts again, before the entire assemblage.

"OldGreyEagle"

Saw your query regarding costs to start out. That's a tough one to answer, depending on where you live, what stores are nearby, what terrain you're delaing with, et cetera. We've given up trying to identify a cost. But, being in Massachusetts, we have the benefit of Eastern Mountain Sports stores, (yeah, we know...EMS...Extra Money Spent), nearby. For a number of years, we've had an arrangement with the store closest to us. Every year, after the new Scouts have settled in, the EMS folks come to a troop meeting and bring samples of what they sell, geared to the new camping family, the young camper, the young and inexperienced backpacker. They also bring upgraded and more expensive items for the more experienced Scouts and leaders. And then, once a year, the troops in town (actually two towns) band together at one meeting, and either the EMS guys or folks from another good camping store nearby will bring in the really good stuff (expensive, of course) just to show what's available. The nice thing about this arrangement is that these are all very experienced folks, both in camping and backpacking, and selling. So they know how to approach their audience, and what to show them. They're very good at it, and don't try to oversell their wares. They attend to the "real" needs of the kids in Scouting in our area. And...they know the costs. Every one of us learns something new each year. If you've got a reputable store that deals with camping and backpacking gear, you might try the same, if they're willing. The stores we deal with do this more as a public service for us, knowing that they will not be selling anything when they come...but they also know that when parents go to buy, they'll remember who came to answer their questions.

Yarrow,

In answer to the last query in your post, generally I'd bet that, yes, there are, somewhere, Eagles who have transgressed. Hopefully, that number is quite small.

As to the bulk of your post, actions, if any, taken by the troop, would have to be taken on the basis of real hard evidence and facts, not hearsay from second or third parties. To me that means that unless the schools take action, the troop should not. And the schools are not very likely to share information with the troop, so the troop would have to make its own best judgement on what happened and how much of a transgression against the Scout Oath and Law there was. Tough row to hoe, there. As the schools would give you nothing, all you might have is the public actions known to all and seen by all. Still no "hard" evidence, but certainly reason for concern. Myself, I'd probably look upon this as an issue for which the Scoutmaster conference, at the least, was the appropriate choice to start with. Actions beyond that would have to be based on any admissions of guilt directly from the young man, and perhaps a conference with the Scout and his parents. Outside of that, it's still second hand information. Kicking him out of the troop? That's a tough one. He's set a pretty bad example for all to see, and that will stick with him for a long while. Some kids will see him as a local folk hero, but that will hopefully be a minority, and pass quickly. Others will know that he's not all that he could have been. Still, is this reason to remove him from Scouting? Tough question.

As to the punishment, and where it should come from, I don't know that I'd agree that the SM has total and complete say and control there. Rather, I think that the SM would be responsible for taking his thoughts to the Committee, and having it discussed there. If the committee as a whole, or a good majority, agreed with the SM and his thoughts on the matter, then the SM would be free to exercise authority. But taking the bull by the horns by himself, without committee input, at the least, might only make matters worse, for all.

NHScouter,

Thanks!! That's what we needed to see...the black and white that lays out just who can, and why they can.

Good job.

Ed,

Try telling that to an atheist.

"Atheism is not a relgion!"

"Is too!"

"is not!"

"Is too!!"

"Is not!! Prove it!"

"It says so, right here in my Atheist's Bib...le.......oh, wait..."

The admonition is...ack...help..wackwackwack...bludgeon...help...beatbeatbeat...ugh........

We have taken control of this posters keyboard. He shall not be allowed to post the admonition. No one outside of the Order is to know. We are.......The Order of the Arrow Secrecy Committee, and our mission is to keep errant posters from giving away information that should be earned the hard way....in an ordeal.

You are now returned to your regularly scheduled discussion.

OFF-TOPIC ALERT.....

Rooster's example, above, is a perfect one for the need, in these forums, of a method to "edit" our own posts. We're all susceptible to the dreaded "uh oh...I screwed up that post and found out only after I posted it" calamity. Wouldn't it be real nice if this website offered a means of editing our own posts after the fact, for those neat little moments when the signals between the brain and the fingers go awry, and the demons of the keyboard force our hand to "post" long before we should?

This message is brought to you by the "Write To Your Webmaster Committee", an organization created by and for those of us whose fingers and brain cells aren't always connected in the fashion they're supposed to be. _