jmcquillan

The Troop Committee Chairman's job is to coordinate the Troop Committee in it's efforts to support the Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is the "Man In Charge", not the Committee Chairman. The existence of the committee is simply to support the Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is the one who works with, and guides the Scouts, in determining what they will do and when. The Troop Committee, if trained, can have quite a bit of input if it sees things that are heading in a wrong direction, or if costs are prohibitive. Their job is to inform the Scoutmaster of those things and help the Scoutmaster (and therby the Scouts), plan alternatives, or alternative methods of raising funds, but not to set the direction of the troop. Troops are supposed to be BOY RUN under the guidance of the (trained) Scoutmaster.

The Committee SUPPORTS the Scoutmaster. Have the Committee Chairman read the Troop Committee Guidebook to see what his job, and those of all other adults in the troop, are. If the troop doesn't have that book, get one.

Hope this helps.

It sounds like you've got all your ducks in a row, and you've made the right choice. You can't wait for the Scouts to show up to run the program, and you can base the program on the hope that they will show up.

If you're convinced that your program is great, and you still have a bunch of Scouts who still come and aren't saddled with too much to do in their lives, I'll offer my experience for what it's worth.

When I was Scoutmaster, I found that Scouting never seemed to be on the same level playing field in a boys life, when compared with family, school, church, and school or town sports. Many Moms & Dads, unconciously (I hope), place Scouting on a lower level of benefit and importance in their sons lives that these other things by their expressions of delight and support. Thus, the boys do the same. With regard to that, the only thing I've ever been able to do, without stepping on toes and getting into places I shouldn't be, is to suggest to the parents, on New Parents Night, that they think about this issue when getting their sons involved in Scouting in the first place. It's important. Why, they ask? Well, if a boy is to succeed at things in life, it's important to have the time and energy to be able to attend to those things. It's better, from my point of view, to have one's son involved in only those things he can give 100% to all the time, rather than a whole bunch of activities to which he can only give 50-75%. It's a better lesson in life to be able to give all, rather than half, because time and energy does not allow. So, I tell parents to think about placing Scouting on the same level playing field with other activities in their son's lives, or commit to only those things they can support him in 100% and allow him to give 100%. And if Scouting doesn't fit the mold, well that's fine. At least we'd be comfortable with the fact that the boy would be quite busy with beneficial things in his life.

Does this mean that boys participating in sports or other activities can't be in my troop? No, emphatically NO. What it does mean, is that there will be limits, imposed by the boys willingness to participate, on how and when he advances (a life lesson here).

I used to tell the boys that, if they were going to be participating in, say, High School football, and it would interfere with Scouting, then they were responsible for writing a short letter to the Scoutmaster, outlining what they would be doing, for how long, and how long the Troop could expect to be without them, and when they expected to return. This provided the Troop with facts they could use for planning around the absence of these boys. We tried not to place the boys in an "either/or" situation. In turn, the boys who were going to be absent for some period were told that their positions, if they had one, would be given to others for the term required for advancement (a life lesson, but if we knew soon enough, we'd try to avoid placing these kids on positions that would suddenly become vacant). They would also be told that the term they were absent would not count towards advancement or time in the troop, it was a leave of absence by the Scouts choice (another life lesson). They could, and would, pick up where they left off when they came back, but not necessarily in an warrant position. That would have to wait for the next election or opening. Most Scouts played by these rules, and it worked. We hardly ever lost older Scouts on a permanent basis. They wanted to some back, and they knew they could. They also knew that they would have to work a little harder to catch up on advancement.

Of course, there was the occassional boy and family who, no matter what benefit of the doubt they were given, they simply showed up on a haphazard basis and expected everything the same as the boys who showed up regularly, or they tried to only show up for the really good trips. Our policy on attendance pretty much ruled out the special trips for them, and we'd take quite a bit of time and effort to counsel them on participation and attendance, with their parents I should point out. When it became apparent that these boys simply had either little time to be in Scouting regularly, of lacked the desire (like they were there because Mom & Dad said they would be), we would sit with the boy and the parents and lay the cards on the table, politely, but firmly. The adult leadership in the troop could not split itself into enough parts to attend to those boys that wanted to be there and always were, and those who weren't or couldn't be. We would encourage to boy and his parents to review the boys schedule for available time. We would encourage them to take a look at whose desire it was that the boy was in Scouting. And lastly, we would encourage them to decide if Scouting was truly something they had the time and energy for. If the answer to these questions indicated a lack of time, desire, effort, and/or energy, we would encourage them to take Scouting out of the boys schedule and give all their energy and effort to those things they could all support and participate in, together. Invariably, that would either open the door for them to leave, or really enter Scouting as a family.

Take this for what it's worth to you. But it worked for me for about 20 years, once I understood what had to be done.

I do agree with Mike Long regarding the sales pitch thing and the mock campsite. But I should mention that the location I mantioned on the Cape does not have a mock campsite set up. It seems to be strictly the service of providing the free coffee. They do seem to go that extra step to give drivers notice of what's ahead, for the mile or so before the rest area, they post signs on the side of the road advertising the free coffee and suggesting that, for safety's sake, drivers take a break, stretch their legs, and have a free cup of coffee. To me, that seems to spell "service project" as much as any project that I can recall. It's one that is long lasting, too. For they've been doing this year after year for some time now.

I seem to remember seeing a Boy Scout Troop offering this very same type of service at one of the rest stops on Route 6, the main highway on Cape Cod. They've been there for a number of years doind this. I've never stopped to partake, but have seen them. I couldn't tell you whether it's being done as an Eagle Project (I doubt), a troop service project (perhaps), or in conjunction with another group. I seem to remember seeing a deuce & a half there periodically, so it may be done along side of a local National Guard Unit. There is a base on the Cape.

So, it is being done...at least in one place.

You're absolutely correct!! I did think I had heard it all, but this one takes the cake.

Now let's see, in order for us to be completely PC (politically correct) in this charged atmosphere, perhaps we should look into any merit badges having something to do with animals. Do dogs get upset when they're being trained? Are their feelings being hurt? By virtue of that pain and suffering, should we no longer encourage Scouts to raise and train dogs? How about any merit badges having to do with farm animals? Eventually these animals may be slaughtered. Horrors? Should we no longer even mention animal farming to scouts? And, oh Lord, here's one PETA missed altogether...Insect Study! Imagine if they understood that scouts have to collect these creatures. kill them, and "pin" them in a collection box!!!

No, I don't think it's too far fetched an idea. It has a lot of merit. Unfortunately, we are an army of two...many, many more folks on both sides (GSA & BSA) would have to support the idea. But there's a beginning here.

Question is: Would the GSA be willing to enter into an adventure like this, or would they simply see it as competition for numbers?

LONG POST WARNING....sorry...

Explaining this to the kids in your unit shouldn't be too much of a problem if you approach it from the same point of view that you've expressed here. It's a situation that exists, you do not at all agree with it, but it is what it is...not fair, but it is what it is.

Consider one of the merit badges that is part of the concern here...Citizenship in the Nation. When a person, or group of people find a law that they do not agree with, what is the process for change? That same process could be used here as an outlet for their feelings, reinforcement of the concept, and, who knows, perhaps a road to change to actual fairness for those that follow them on the Venturing Trail. Perhaps they could even take it upon themselves to discover what similar program exists within the GSA regarding citizenship, and the concepts within the two programs could be used as basis for their arguement (and yours) for change. This could really snowball, if they wanted it to. I'd be willing to bet that there are many folks in Scouting across the nation, not just in your little area or mine, who might find that this particular area of concern is due more attention and consideration than it has been given.

As I indicated above, I personally don't think this has to be an area where admitting girls into the BSA has to be THE arguement. (It could degenerate into that if allowed.) There's more to the issue of fairness here than allowing girls into the BSA. My own feeling is that the Eagle / Merit Badge issue could be left within the troop environment and left out of Venturing altogether. Thus it becomes less of an immediate issue. Boys would have to register with a troop, and participate in that program also, if Eagle and Merit Badges were a desire above and beyond the Venture Program. On the girls side, I'm not all that familiar with the GSA program, but have the impression that it's a far cry from the BSA program, and the opportunites offered are not as in depth or as exciting as the BSA program. Fewer girls in my area seem to seek out the GSA as an outlet for their energies, than boys seeking out the BSA. That says something to me.

Perhaps the Venturing Program, and the remaining Explorer Program could be developed into truly equal opportunity programs for both sexes, leaving intact the existing Troop program. Venturing could be the avenue to full participation by girls in Scouting, thus leaving the existing troop program as a single sex program. The Venturing Program could be developed into a program with similar awards to the Troop program, including something tantamount to Eagle within that program. Over time, that award could become recognized as similar in stature to the Eagle, but in a co-ed environment, thus the two programs remain separate and intact.

I think I'm speaking heresy here for some. I certainly do not want to see the existing troop program become co-ed. It works just fine as it is. I don't have daughters, but I have daughters-in-law, and they both had little use for the GSA (no excitement). I've long felt that the BSA could offer a program that was co-ed, separate from the troops, but the same in nature as the troop program, with all the fun, excitment, awards, recognition, etc. I personally think it could be one heck of an exciting arena for both girls and boys to work together in. The troop program offers a wonderful arena for boys to work by themselves, without the girls, Venturing could be the same for both, and still under the watchful eye and control of the Lords of Scouting in Texas.

OK, I've pontificated quite enough here. Time for me to shut up. I'd be interested in knowing how the rest of the group here feels about this.

Be well.

eisely,

Phil-is-tine: a person who is lacking in, or smugly indifferent to culture, aesthetic refinement, etc., or is contentedly commonplace in ideas and tastes.

No comment on the character of the characters inhabitting this forum...not at all. Just my own personal take on how I think the Lords in Texas sometimes view us out here in the netherlands of Scouting. I hear a lot about units and people being involved in hatching many of these "new" ideas that suddenly become policy, but have yet to meet anyone who actually participated. It gives me pause, and I wonder just where the movers and shakers in Texas get these ill-defined ideas. I wonder how well these ideas were worked in the field prior to implementation. It would seem to me that many of the concerns raised here would have been gone over already, but the concerns remain. And we're only the volunteers!! We don't even get paid to review this stuff and comment. But here we are, just volunteers, questioning the wisdom of the directives from above. I think, sometimes, that those dictating from on high have little regard for our opinions and concerns, and think of us as contentedly commonplace in our ideas and tastes, and our acceptance of what is placed before us.

That's all! :-)

Here's an idea. How about we let this thread go for a few more days to see what other questions and concerns arise, and then get someone to forward the whole darn thing to the Lords of Scouting in Texas. I wonder if they ever hear from the serfs and philistines in the field?

Stan,

I'm not for having girls join the Scouts, never have been. But, if Scouting is going to offer a program that is touted as being co-ed, wouldn't it make sense, at least for appearance sake, that the program be truly co-ed, all the way? The way it appears, if the information OGE was given is correct, is that the program is set up for the guys to participate in "all the way" with everything available to them, and the girls can participate, but only up to a point. That's not a level playing field. As for the GSA affiliation, I don't feel that makes muster here if the above is true. The program should probably be totally separate from the Troops, that way, the guys get to complete BSA advancement (MB's & Eagle) through the troop environment (dual affiliation); the girls could, by affiliation with the GSA, earn all their GSA advancement, and both could, together, earn Venturing advancement recognition. There's an appearance thing here, IMHO, that smacks of inequality. I think total separation would look and feel better.

I'm not really all that up to speed on the Venturing program, but if what you say is true, I share you thoughts.

Question: Is this a similar situation to the old Explorer program situation? Could male explorers earn merit badges and Eagle, but not the female participants?

It seems ridiculous to attempt to hold on to a connection to a Boy Scout Troop for boys through the Venturing program, if the girls are not allowed the same access. It's basically telling the girls that they can only participate in certain things, and then they can sit and watch the boys earn recognition that they can't. Why not just keep them totoally separate and avoid any question? If a boy wants to participate in both programs, fine, let him register in both, separately. That way, the boys and girls in the Venturing program are really working toward common goals on a level playing field. Seems like a no-brainer...huh?

Our troop is down to 48 at the moment, but in the past 15 years we've been as high as 74 Scouts. Getting things signed off was never a problem. Why? Because the Senior Scouts who were approved by the Scoutmaster for signing-off, and the adult leadership, including the Advancement Chair, always, always stayed at the Scouthouse long after the meeting was over. Meetings started at 7:00PM sharp, and ended at 8:30PM sharp. Those I've mentioned were usually at the Scouthouse until 9:30PM on meeting nights for any number of reasons, but the prime reason was to serve the Scouts who might not have been able to get adult or senior scout attention during the meeting. Adult leaders have to make the time to attend to the needs of the client (Scouts) when the rest of the schedule is so full that things like advancement don't get attention during regular meeting times.

Oh, and once a month, one meeting would be set aside as an "Advancement Night". On this night, any type of advancement could be attended to. Teaching was accomplished. Proving competency could be attended to. Merit badges, rank advancement, anything could be worked on under adult and senior scout supervision and instruction.

Eisley's probably right, though. If your Advancement Chair has her own schedule as a top priority on meeting nights, and not the scouts, then it might be time for a change.

Message from Mike Bowman indicates that USSSCOUTS.org is back up and running. (4/17/01)

The best information on the subject can be obtained in two publications by the BSA.

"The Council". publication No. 33071A, Copyright 1977, 1998 printing.

"The District", publication No. 33070, copyright 1977, 1997 printing.

Both should be available at your local Scout Shop, Council Office, or through the current Scout Catalog.

4/11/01

An update on USSCOUTS.org & MacScouter, for those of you waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

Since our last newsletter we've been working towards getting back online. We had a few surprises along the way and a few challenges from minor equipment damage during transit from Missouri to Virginia and from moving our domain names, but it looks like those are pretty much behind us now. Our server is online and functional, but not yet open for business. In the next few days our websites should be back online. At this point we are waiting for domain name tables to be updated across the net to reflect our new IP addresses. As soon as that looks like it is happening, we'll send out another note to let you know that our websites are back online and available.

Mike

Michael F. Bowman

Vice President, http://usscouts.org

Webmaster, http://www.webnme.com

I think I know the answer to this question, at least from a common sense and common logic viewpoint, but here goes anyways...

A friend in another troop posed the question as follows:

"Our troop is chartered to an organization that has a bar in their facility. Our troop committee meeetings are held in a meeting room adjacent to the bar. Access to the meeting room is both through the bar and a side door to the main hall. When Scouts come before the troop committee to present Eagle Project proposals, etc., is it alright for the Scouts to enter via the bar side (in full uniform) or must they enter via the other side? Is it appropriate for the troop committee to be holding their meetings where they do?"

To the first question, my mind screams out "Of course NOT..." To me it's common sense that a boy not be exposed to the bar in the first place, and certainly not in uniform. Not even my own son, and especially not the sons of others. I think it's both a common sense and setting the example thing.

To the second question, I wonder. The committee meets there for exposure to the membership of the chartering partner, use their facilities for meetings, and also to patronize the establishment. As adults, I suppose they are welcome to hold their meetings anywhere they want, but then again, it's a setting the example type of thing. I wouldn't want my committee to be seen as a drinking crowd. But if the committee merely meets in the room, and patronizes the facility after the meeting, I suppose there's little harm, especially if the entire committee agrees to the policy.

My larger question for the membership here, is not so much what your opinions might be, for we all have our own. But rather, like the person who posed the question to me, are there written and published guidelines with regard to these issues? Anyone got a handle on anything like this?

I don't think the uniforms are any better made than other clothing on the market. In fact, there's alot of things out there that are, indeed, better made, at less cost. Union made or not. I would think that the BSA might shop around to get a better quality item for the money we pay, or charge less for what we get now.

While I am not proposing that Scouts not wear the uniform at all, for I value it, and have for nearly 20 years, I would ask this...

Mike, you spoke about the last time you were in uniform and had someone take you to task on the gay issue. Were you 12 at the time?????? When was the last time that you had a Scout come up to you with tears in his eyes, asking why he was being targeted by someone he didn't know, on an issue he's not that familiar with????

I love the uniform and all that it stands for. And I harbor a certain degree of hate, yes hate, for those that would do what was done, on more than one occasion during the candy sale, to our boys. I can't place the boys in harms way just to save the uniform. Can you? What other way, other than wearing the uniform, and standing at the ready to guard agains the idiot adult would you suggest? And remember, this is not a fantasy situation I'm talking about. This is real. It happened. More than once. I'd appreciate any thoughts on helping the boys maintain their pride while wearing the uniform. But the ideas need to take the idiot into consideration.

Thanks.

I received this message this morning and thought I'd pass it on...

Update from Michael Bowman (USSCOUTS.org)

By now most of you have heard that in Feruary we learned that our host in Kansas City, Missouri, Drivernet.com was filing for bankruptcy. We had to remove our server from their facility before the doors were padlocked and went offline for over a week. We then began a search to find a new host that would allow us to continue to provide Scouting resources via the web. While we were in the search process we were able to temporarily go back online for a few more weeks. However, the temporary host firm, Timm.com, also filed for bankruptcy and we were again forced to remove our server before the doors were padlocked. All that news on TV and radio about the collapse of dot.coms and the bad news from the stock market hit us unexpectedly.

In response to our cry for help, over one hundred Scouters responded with leads and offers of help. Many more responded with support. We were overwhelmed by the volume of e-mail and the wonderful attitude of Scouters. And if we haven't said it to you already, "Thank You" we really appreciate the support.

A couple of weeks ago I visited the computer facility of ACS Systems & Engineering of Virginia Beach, Virginia in response to a kind offer of hosting. ACS' President, Tim Miller, and ACS' Executive Vice President, Wes Gibson, are both Scouters involved in Scouting in Tidewater Council and ACS is a strong supporter of Scouting and many other charitable endeavors. Thanks to these two Scouters, we will soon be back online and operating our server from Virginia Beach, Virginia

Last week we shipped our server from Missouri to Virginia to begin the process of transitioning to our new host. The server arrived safely and will be put online in the next week. We have spent the last week working on the paperwork to transfer our domain names from IP addresses in Missouri to ones provided by ACS in Virginia. When we have competed the transfer of domain names, all of the old names will work again; e.g., usscouts.org, macscouter.com, and netcommish.com.

Not only will ACS be hosting us, they will be providing us with a newer and more capable server that will be better able to handle the load from all of the folks visiting our sites. In the weeks before we went offline, we know that many of you found our site to be getting slower and slower. The server we had was just not able to handle all the visits we were getting. Thanks to ACS, we should be able to give much faster response times in about a month.

In the next week we hope to bring our current server back online. As soon as we have that accomplished we will be working on building the new more powerful server. When the new server is ready, we will shift operations to the new server and hopefully without going offline for more than a few hours. We are hopeful that by May we will be running our websites on the new server provided by ACS. My special thanks to Dana Eddy, ACS Systems Architect, who has worked after hours to help us get back on our feet.

I received an email from them the other day (which I think I deleted) that said they were moving from their temporary provider to a new permanent provider. But there was something in the message about having to pack up their server to ship to the new provider. I can't remember how long they said they'd be down, but I'm sure they'll send a message when they're back up. As soon as I hear something, I'll post it, unless somebody beats me to it...

Below is something I pulled out of our troop positions guideline book. We use the instructors to teach anything that needs to be taught. Each instructor (for we have a bunch) is responsible for teaching in the areas he expertise. With a number of instructors, you can pretty much cover all the bases. When an instructor isn't an expert in a certain area, he takes the training with the troop in his weak areas and becomes more profficient. Hope this helps.

TROOP INSTRUCTOR:

GENERAL INFORMATION

Type: Appointed by the Senior Patrol Leader

Term: 6 months

Reports to: Senior Patrol Leader

Description: The Instructor teaches Scouting skills.

Comments: The Instructor will work closely with both the Troop Guides and with the Assistant Scoutmasters. The Instructor does not have to be an expert but should be able to teach the Scoutcraft skills needed for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks. The troop can have more than one instructor.

QUALIFICATIONS

Age: 14 or older

Rank: 1st Class or higher

Experience: none

Attendance: 75% over previous 6 months

PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS

Training: You must attend the troop Junior Leader Training even if you have attended in the past.

Attendance: You are expected to attend 75% of all troop meetings, Patrol Leaders' Council meetings, outings, and service projects. If your attendance is low, or if you have three (3) unexcused absences in a row, you can be removed from office.

Effort: You are expected to given this job your best effort.

GENERAL LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITIES

Uniform: Set the example by wearing your uniform correctly. This means that you will wear all of the parts of the troop uniform, shirttail tucked in, with all required badges in their correct locations.

Behavior: Set the example by living the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday life. Show Scout Spirit in everything you say and do.

Attendance: Set the example by being an active Scout. Be on-time for meetings and activities. You must call the Senior Patrol Leader or Scoutmaster if you are not going to be at a meeting or if you suddenly have to miss an outing. You also need to make sure that someone will assume your responsibilities.

SPECIFIC LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITIES

Teaches basic Scouting skills in troop and patrols.

Serves as a member of the Patrol Leaders Council

Under normal circumstances, (those prior to the whole "gay" issue), I would definitely fall on the side of those who support the wearing of the uniform. But, and here's where I find some level of apprehension; our troop has begun to rethink the candy sales we hold yearly just for the uniform and public acceptance issue. During the last candy sale we held, adults were actually walking up to some of the kids and telling them that they would not support scouting because the BSA was a disriminatory towards gays.

While I accept the premise that we may all have our own opinions on these issues, I can not, and do not, acccept the idea that any adult would be so heartless as to take a boy to task on the issue. The boys did not create the issue, it is purely an "adult" problem. And there seems to be quite a few "adults" out there, (and I say "adults" with some reservation), who can not separate the two. Adults who choose to take a boy to task for an adult problem are not really being very grown-up themselves about the whole thing. And we've found it to be quite upsetting to some of the boys, especially the younger ones. Some of the older boys can just shrug it off and understand that these "adults" are acting more like two year olds. The younger ones can't, for they see "adults" as their mentors and deserving of respect. How can they be asked to deliver that respect to "adults" who choose not to act like adults?

Ultimately, I would suggest that you take a look at your troop and question whether the kids could deal with a situation like that if faced with it. The uniform, although the glue that holds the unit together, could also become the solvent that breaks it apart if certain "adults" decide to be stupid, in your face.

Hope this helps.

I've only been involved with this type of thing once, but it resolved itself well before the Board of Review. The boy withdrew his application and resigned from Scouting.

As to your query regarding what the process should be within the troop at the moment, I would consult your District Executive for direction. He's paid to know how to venture down this trail. Innocent until proven guilty, yes, but already he's tarnished by accusation. Tread carefully.

As to the situation if found guilty, I believe there's no question but that he would not qualify for the Eagle. His character and qualifications would fall victim to his own folly. Any further action in an attempt to gain the Eagle for him would tarnish the meaning of the Eagle for all those who have earned it, and those might still do so.

And...hurrah for all those willing to stand in the face of obstinate opposition and say just that. Hurrah! :-)

Train the Trainer does not expire. You only need to take it once. It is assumed that by participating in training courses, on staff, you will keep and expand your knowledge. You may very well be asked to serve on TTT staff, if you're good.