jkhny

"As strange as it may seem, it IS possible to be in overall support of a country, or organzation, and yet see fault with it that one might want to try to fix. Bringing up those issues shouldn't make someone "the enemy"." Well, that USED to be the case in this country.......but in some quarters you'd be hard pressed to find that sentiment being expressed now..... failed leadership saying we shouldn't be concerned with what's gone wrong - and shouldn't "point fingers" leaders who'll be in charge of the "investigation" into THEIR own behavior..... sounds eerily familiar.......

Who wanted more "independent" information? Other independent reports. Note the web site link. Explore away. Ron is quite forthcoming about the situation there - as are other CAC members. Note - Ron was "suspended" from BSA for his efforts fighting this sale. So much for members having any voice in BSA. The Scarlet Sassafras - Special Edition Blast ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ August 30, 2005 - http://scarlet_sassafras.tripod.com Opening Quotes: "A Scout Is Courteous" ... the 5th point of the Scout Law. The third principle of the Scout Oath..."to k

BW must have someone screening news reports so he can avoid reading anything that doesn't fit with his view of things. According to BW...."REMEMBER jhnky creates his own facts even when they do not appear in his "supporting" material. "below noted that Smith was "placed on leave" by BSA when the FBI informed BSA they were investigating him for distributing child porn" Nowhere does his article state that. " Did I not cut and paste everything? sorry.....does BW expect to be spoon fed? Somehow he missed what EVERY news report at the time was reporting?????? Smith was

"jkhny, if you spent half the time delivering a quality Scouting program to your boys instead of finding fault with councils across the nation and bad mouthing the program from one end to the other, you would be much better off. " Actually our SE would LOVE for me to simply quit Scouting.....he was rather perturbed that one of my $1000 donations went directly to a TROOP instead of FOS (and that's only one of a few). LOCAL Scouters are rather happy I'm STILL involved, as are the kids. But BSA would rather DRIVE good people OUT of Scouting than respond to their questions and criticism

"Incompetence would mean rushing to the wrong city in a different state, unless that is the reason they were so late." Like telling Charleston SOUTH CAROLINA to expect a plane full of people needing medical attention.......and leaving that city's ambulances, hospitals and MD's on standby while the plane lands in Charleston WEST VIRGINIA? FEMA has been gutted and filled with incompetent political appointees. Sometimes Bureaucracies are better run by bureaucrats instead of Arabian Horse breeders. EVERYONE knew there were issues with levees in N.O. Yet the $40 million allocated

"Some have protested that they were required to fabricate the enrollment numbers by the very supervisors who are inducing them to sign the fraud statements. This issue directly hits to the heart of the matter. To what extent will this problem be contained as the work of lower level staff in Atlanta? And to what extent will the higher level staff and the national Boy Scout organization accept responsibility? This is a matter of integrity in Scouting and a likely concern to active volunteers everywhere. This problem is not limited to Atlanta. Why is it so widespread and w

The sad thing is that you're never going to hear "complaints" about alot of these issues - like Smith. The people that reacted negatively to it simply will not go near BSA. Anyone hear the rant on Fox by Greta Von Whatever the day that story broke?...and this was FOX the all-American network.....She was screaming over how could BSA let a pervert be in charge of Youth Protection. How many people that MIGHT have been interested in Scouting decided - "no....I don't think so" after that? As far as Owasippe, most Scouters don't have a clue that is happening - unless their own Council

From: http://www.boyscoutsfortruth.com/ "There is apparently a serious effort underway to assess the condition of Atlanta's inner city scouting program. The rolls have been cleaned and procedures put in place to ensure that all enrollments will have the endorsement of a unit leader. Two key questions remain: 1. The cleaning of the rolls begs a question - how many of these real registrations are legitimate "Operation First Class" members? What is the standard for a "disadvantaged" scout? What is the standard for a "real scout program"? How many "disadvantaged scouts

"Ignoring Prairie Scouter's jab at Chicago politics, and assuming he's correct about CAC, my take on this and jkhny's frustration is that CAC has taken liberties with "Trustworthy" and if the higher levels of BSA ignore this, they are silently condoning it. Is this about right or have I oversimplified it? " Exactly - and this is a case where members in a Council HAVE managed to follow all the rules and organize COR's to vote leadership out. Unless you have undergone this, you have no idea how hard it actually IS to do this. It is near impossible. It was tried here. Our SE and h

"Look, just because you have an opinion it doesn't have anything to do with real life. An employer cannot punnish someone for being investigated. Ever hear of innocent till proven guilty?" BSA hasn't. Ever read "Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Measurement?" Ever even SEEN a copy? But Smith WAS guilty. (and St. Jean was not - of anything illegal) "Smith was put on paid leave. Then he chose to retire BEFORE any charges were announced. An employer, even the BSA, cannot refuse him retirement when at the time there was no known impropriety" BSA was informed th

"As Smith's employer on what grounds would you fire him, when he had not been charged with any crime, and when once he was charged he no longer was an employee? " ANY BSA employee or volunteer involved in activities involving child abuse or child pornography or illegal acts of any kind (especially that reflect on his position in an organization that deals with youth) should be subject to TERMINATION. (Do you disagree with that?) Smith SHOULD have been put on "suspension" pending outcome of charges - since the FBI made clear they had substantial evidence of wrongdoing and had an inv

Ok.....you still missed the point. THE COR'S REFUSE TO APPROVE THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP. The duly qualified "representatives" do not want current leadership in power. NOBODY WANTS THESE PEOPLE TO STAY BUT THEY WON'T LEAVE They did everything they were supposed to do. as far as "YOU agreed to deliver the BSA program, and the council and district is there to help you keep your promise. They are not there to help you CHANGE the program, They are there to help you learn and follow the program." Schirach would've loved this mindset Funny but most of the leader

As has been explained to you a board cannot be un-elected EXACTLY!!! It is IMPOSSIBLE for the membership in this "representative democracy" acting according to rules and procedures specified by this Council's bylaws to REMOVE ledership that REFUSES to leave. The membership REFUSES to vote "FOR" the slate provided that maintains the status-quo. Yet the membership is NOT allowed to choose candidates that their representatives WILL vote FOR. This is not "democracy" in any way shape or form. This is an autocracy where those in power refuse to relinquish it. The LEADERS

When asked if that meant that there was no way to vote them out of office, Chookaszian responded, "that is correct". He further emphasized that the current board would remain "whether we liked it or not." As noted, the current leadership has said they will provide a third slate of candidates - of THEIR choosing. If that THIRD slate is voted down they have said they will change the bylaws to allow current Board Members to reappoint themselves. So....this is as if ONE candidate was running for President of the US. Voters refuse to "approve" him and vote NOT to elect him - twice. BU

"Fast forward to the recent pass. The Edward Deming style of Quality Management says that organizations do its best work when EVERYONE is in on the policy decisions. No, its not required, but how many readers are employed by company's that do "grass root" surveys every year or on some regular basis. Its not bad to hear what the underlings think. Old Sam Walton came up with a lot of ideas by traveling cross country with his truck drivers and he did all right." I have an IE degree from one of the best schools in the US. I know a litte bit about making things work better - my career has bee

"It is not the unit volunteers role to make decisions for the council. Nor is it the councils responsilbility to make decisions based on the emotional outbursts of volunteers. " A clear avoidance of the issue. The volunteers through their representatives, in compliance with the Council bylaws voted NOT to approve the ONLY slate of candidates submitted by the handpicked nominating committee. A SECOND slate of candidates was ALSO voted down, in compliance with the Council bylaws and procedures. The Council Leadership has refused to allow ANY other nominees but those THEY nav

"I guess you have to go to the annual meeting and voice concerns, it would help if you got the CORs involved as they are the ones who actually control things. If you say the CORs are non-responsive, then you have to work to get them more on the ball. " The COR's et al have VOTED the slates DOWN. Chicago Area Coiuncio has TWICE now refused to approve the handpicked slated proposed by their Council "leadership" that wants to remain in place. Yet the Council "leadership" refuses to allow the hand-picked "nominating committee" to nominate ANY candidats that the volunteers (through thei

Many have repeatedly said BSA "works" and that ther eare rules and regulations and procedures in place to deal with things. In the case cited - Chicago - things are clearly NOT working. Please do not dispute the "facts" - they have been confirmed by numerous sources. My point is: What do you do when it is clear things are NOT working? What do volunteers do when they have followed all the rules and regulations and are STILL ignored? Is this appropriate ANYWHERE? What should the volunteers in Chicago do?

THEORY From BSA "talking points" The BSA is a representative democracy .Local councils elect representatives to the National Council, which in turn, sets policy. The BSA procedural methods for input are well-established. As a private organization, the BSA conducts its affairs according to its charter, articles of incorporation, and bylaws. The National Council operates just like local councils. Governance is provided by an elected executive board composed of volunteers. The BSA is a representative democracy that considers diversity of opinions invaluable.

I am sure that the level of discourse shown here will reassure ANY parent that BSA takes distribution of child pornography seriously (not). The willingness to excuse what happened to Smith INSTEAD of questioning WHY he wasn't FIRED will not be reassuring to "outsiders" that BSA takes these issues seriously. Note that I am not dragging BSA through the mud. Mr. Smith's actions were highly embarassing to BSA and clearly hurt BSA's image. I am raising questions that MANY parents and "outsiders" - and even Scout Leaders - have had about what happened here. The difference in treatment bet

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"To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. " Of note, Lee took FULL responsibility for his actions as a commander. He NEVER "blamed" others for failures or cast aspersions on his subordinates - even when their failures cost him dearly. A recent book "explains" the disaster at Gettysburg - the seeming pointlessness of Picketts Charge - by showing that Lee was following the "game plan" of other Napoleanic battles (well studied by Lee and his contemporaries). If the plan postula

NOT "making light" of pedophiles vs homosexuality, though an intelligent conversation on the topic seems impossible in BSA. MANY in BSA would make NO distinction between these two people and call them both "gay" - they were interested in males sexually. How many religious sites screaming about "deviates" make this same association? Many defending BSA's exclusion of homosexuals cite "protecting boys" as a justifiable reason - noting that the pedophile crisis in the Catholic Church proves their point. Note: NO opinion is being expressed by me either way on this or BSA may decide to thro

OK, I didn't realize that Smith is the one that fired St. Jean....that update requires a revisit Screaming irony. Makes BSA look like flaming hypocrites, The guy who is so anti-gay FIRES a long time apparently gay staffer yet is allowed to retire himself when caught by the FBI distributing kiddie porn (focused on underage BOYS engaged in graphic sexual acts). Some will note that Smith supposedly never acted on this "interest" - or at least that's what is claimed. But many would think that this interest alone makes Smith "gay" or just a pedophile (since children are abused in produ

"I appreciate your assurance that BSA will not kick people out for expressing concerns through proper channels--can you help identify what those proper channels are? " Sorry, can't let this pass. BSA HAS and WILL "kick out" members for expressing concern through "proper channels". But then it's really hard to express concerns about the illegal acts committed by an SE TO that same SE or his hand-picked Executive Board. Willis - head of training in Greater Alabama was concerned that too many units had NO trained leaders. Making inquiries, he was told to "don't worry". Pushing t