JeffD

im interested as to why you are not a fan of the pay/go for cubs? i understand for financial hardship - but i could argue my wife causes financial hardship with her shopping

our pack had about 65 scouts and about 30 or so scouts didnt sell anything. a handful of those 'bought out' with the remaining just in the pay/go group. to me , thats a pretty large percentage. agreed that some kids didnt have the support to go out and sell, but i dont think the pack would remain financially fit with about 30% selling the minimum to get by (earn the pack $50) and a handful selling more

our pack has required that each scout sell enough candy to earn the pack $50. (this year we're switching to popcorn - so i dont know the effort required to earn this amount)

if a scout chooses to not sell candy, they can pay the pack $50 and 'buy out' of fundraising - or just 'pay-as-you-go' for everything. they buy beltloops and rank and any scout awards. the amount they pay is usually the actual price rounded up.. so a belt loop at the scout store that sells for $1.49 - sells to the scout for $2. granted those that dont sell or dont buy out are usually the ones who dont earn as many awards, but shouldnt there be a little more incentive to sell?

maybe its the business training to make money for the pack to be able to do a lot of activities - or subsidize some, but does anyone else think we should be charging more to create more incentive for scouts to participate in helping the pack go?

our pack is jumping into the popcorn business this year.

last year was our first year and we sold $1 candy bars - with 1/2 proceeds going to the pack. each scout had to sell 2 boxes ($100 of candy) or opt out of selling and give the pack $50 for yearly dues. it was nice b/c many would give $1 "just because" and not care about what candy it was.

i am all for the scout working their way to 'help the pack go' - i just wonder what sort of luck we will have with a much higher priced product... and the competition with school fund raising, soccer-baseball-football fund raising (yes, in Florida we can have year round youth fundraising - err i mean sports )

{quote]Of course, it's only good for a year and we'll have to make a new one next year when they're wolves.

geez - it sounds like they will just have a terrible time doing this AGAIN

thanks - this is something i may have to try with our wolves

here's a link to our district's packet - http://www.timucua.net/files/R2S/sample-parent-guide.pdf

+1 to what was said above...and I would also like to add one more thing to this mix.

I know things were very different from when I came up as a scout and today. It seems that many parents are very protective of our kids and some are even a bit over protective.

My son is starting 2nd grade and will be a Wolf this year. He truly loves scouting and loves to go camping and on the many outdoor events. In all of these events, there is often a need to use a knife. And though I dont let him carry one I would rather he know the proper safety techniques and how to act around a knife. The whittling chip teaches the scouts much of this information.

Some in our pack have said that they dont want their kids using knives but seem to not have a problem when they swing sticks at others, or run through campsites, or .

Kids are going to be curious. I want mine to know the right way to act when he comes across a knife on a campout or at home or if a classmate brings one to school.

with our crossover coming up - i was trying to find something different than what our apck has done in the past. (it was a somewhat loosely structured - boy walks over bridge and gets face paint ceremony).

any ideas and what has been good for your pack? our meetings are held indoors and at the school - so any of the cool ideas with fire are likely out of the question

as another touch - they could write something for the pack newsletter - maybe like "why i like scouts"

Lisabob - you may be on to something there. i know one of her scouts has a brother in our den. he always tells her how he wants to be with the tigers because they always do cool and fun stuff. though i smile when i hear this (.. the MIF part of the KISMIF equation) i also realize that theres other challenges to her group than mine. i know that we work hard to provide a great program for our scouts.

or, like you said, maybe it isnt that she is trying to make them do somehting theyre not interested in - maybe its the way it is presented. though i have not seen a den meeting of theirs - it could be that the material is presented in a way that is not interesting to the kids. i know i need to change my style when i am trying to teach an SAP topic to someone at work from when i am talking to the scouts. again, i need to be very different.

all this makes me realize how important the leader is to a group - and uninterested scouts are what we do NOT want. keep the advice flowing - maybe others can get help also.

A W1 leader in our pack has had problems getting the scouts to complete activity badge items (or other requirements) at home what advice would you offer to her?

Some of the things I can do as a tiger leader, and things that have worked well for me, may not apply to the older scouts.

Thanks in advance

dejavu all over again....

i am a tiger leader and we started the year with 20 scouts. the plan that was set up encouraged all of the boys to attend the meetings and, assuming they attended at least 3 of the 4 per month, they would earn their rank by our blue/gold as we would be finishing up sometime in december.

after the first week in december, we had 1 tiger who had completed the requirements; 2 tigers who were 1 requirement away from their badge; 9 that were 2 away... you get the idea. 1 boy received his in december, all but 3 received theirs at blue/gold. 2 of the boys realized they needed to get working and finished by the next meeting, and 1 boy is more into things other than scouting right now.

rather than worry about what the other scous thought - we took our scouts that had completed the requirements and used them as mentors to the others and had them help out and encourage them to finish up.

i am sure we will have a similar issue next year as many of our parents want to continue with the program over the summer once they become wolves. there will surely be 2 groups of boys - those that earn wolf in the first part of the year and those that start when school starts in august.

our pack had EXCELLENT luck with a rocket launch - and theres a way you could even turn this into a small money making effort for the pack (depending on the size)

1. rockets - i like tower hobbies as their prices are very good. look for educator packs, they come in a package of 12. this is one of the rockets we used this year - http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXF422&P=7 - 12 of them were $35

2. engines - we purchased the smallest engines to launch and they still went quite high. 24 engines were - http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXF436&P=M

this would average out to $6 per scout for a rocket and 2 engines (assuming you have a launch pad) if you dont have one - they can be bought for around $15 (look for kits that include everything and a rocket - they arent more money -- we purchased this one http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKKW8&P=7 and it was $17 and included everything to launch and a ready to fly rocket

each scout that was current received a rocket and an engine. extra rockets for family were sold for $5 and engines for $2. our efforts got us some extra money (not a ton - but paid for everything) in the bank and everyone had a blast (pun intended). we also have enough rockets and engines for a summer launch (remember - unless theyre damaged, the rockets can be flown many times again)

well - my son and i had the best time building his car - and a bonus is he is going to district. (though honestly - he could probably care less about going to district, and just wants me to build a track at home so we can build cars and race eachother). no extreme-lathed poly/moly/bolly wheels or special axles needed - the $3.50 for the kit provided us with a giant return on our investment

he was also voted "scouts choice" for tigers from all of the other scouts there.

enough of my fatherly gloating - so, what could be aggravating about this you say???

a dad who doesnt use the "legal" parts (wheels and parts from a non-BSA kit) who is told he cannot compete in the speed class to determine the cars to move on. Afterall, he would be DQ'd in tech inspection for sure. he let all of the leaders, and most in the fron 15 rows know how he feels about this.

so after his big scene and tantrum of this ex-cubmaster - i now am glad at the experience i was able to share with my tiger. I wanted to tell him trophies arent very expensive and the memories i will have with my son (win or lose) are worth far more than any POS plastic figur will ever be worth.

(sorry for my rant) and dont forget the make it fun part....

thanks for that kurtb.

what you posted is what i had thought was true - but since i was so close to the subject, i felt it necessary to see if thats what you were referring to.

the rules your pack has about tool usage seem very reasonable to me.

i also read online where some national training didnt like the idea of ripping corners from the card as it will humiliate the boys - so they decided to just take the card away for any infraction.

i just hope my son's 'dremel chip' is valid for when he builds his PWD car

thanks all - and continue the input

i know you didnt mean to foil our pun kurt...

It is not within the power of the pack committee to disallow a scout from earning the chip at all.

care to discuss this more?

just get to the point.. i like that.

thanks for the advice. i am sure to put my nose to the grind and sharpen my skills. afterall - if i do not hone my skills - the scouts will surely become dull to the program.

i just hope we arent shaving off the parts of the program that will help the scouts later on.

i agree about the tigers. i really wasnt sold on that from the start. the one bringing it up had asked for where it said 'bears and webelos only".

i just figured if the G2SS and leader books say it is fine for wolf and above - then we should be able to make the decision to offer it (assuming their akela's also participated in it).

yes - a trained leader cannot ensure safety under all situations, and i would rather have all leaders trained on how to act safely.

thanks for the insights

I started the other thread and have the following to offer up.

First, our boys are required to read 4/5 books per week in school. My son usually reads more especially when his little sister asks him to read a bedtime story (enough of the cute family stuff that I will remember always). He has completed 25 different electives and has told me he wants to do them all. My son, as well as a small group of our tigers, are very eager to learn and complete as much as possible. I can count on them to really learn something and help others when they want to learn. As a father and a leader, I truly am lucky to have such a good group of scouts.

I was also very torn on this subject. The book clearly states that the electives can be repeated. We decided to tell the parents that we would rather limit the electives to 2 times towards the beads and that they should try to do as many things as possible.

If we were to go strictly by the book, my son would have earned at least 15 elective discs (150+ electives) with a majority being the reading. Instead, he has completed 38 of the electives (repeating some of the 25).

We had our leader meeting tonight for the pack and all present voted to not allow it for anyone under the rank of bears (and the W1 leader says she didnt want any of hers having it either)

I am disappointed because of how I voted versus how I perceived everyone else voting. I used the G2SS and the Cub Leader handbook while the arguments against (and boy were some vocal) were that they didnt want a bunch of kids running around with knives chasing each other. Maybe I am wrong and completely off base, but this is why I thought we, as leaders, are trained: to enforce the rules and execute the program and know how to handle many of these types of situations.

I still will argue that the concepts learned by the whittling chip should be taught to all cubs (and most of their parents ) who attend campouts. They should know the safe and proper use of the tools. They should also know that when they see unsafe behavior, they can and should tell leaders so that we can correct this. Finally, they should know what is acceptable behavior by all attending when it comes to knives.

As leaders we should also be trained to know how to safely use the knife. I know many of us came up through scouting and have something of an idea or at least have convinced our egos that we already know it - but it is nice to be reminded of the proper use.

As a result of looking into this I think we are going to start teaching our scouts and especially those who attend campouts with us the concepts behind the whittling chip. Just because they cant get the whittling chip, doesnt mean they wont come across a knife outside of the scouting environment. You would hope they would act in the proper way, but maybe this training would give them something else to think back to.

YiS

spongebob - if the adult asking were not another tiger leader, i would think that would work better.

if he were to get it - i would think he would be under so much scrutiny that he would be bound to have corners torn off easily and very quickly

it makes you wish national would say - "the whittling chip can be earned by scouts at the following ranks...."

nldscout - i agree. people find something onthe net and take it for the truth. i felt myself being as diplomatic as possible when i cited the guide for safe scouting and a cub scout leader handbook - and not some random page that may have been updated in 1994.

thats why i appreciate the input here from those who can also offer real life experience.

i figured out the reason for the differences.

it seems that the .pdf file was updated, while the .html version is different. (or is it the other way around? )

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/

links to both are at the top of the above page

thanks -

the funny thing is that the 'age appropriate' link that cubmaster randy posted is different from the one i had found.. and they are both hosted on the same site.

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/chart.html shows that tigers are 'allowed' to use knives.

i have 1 tiger and his dad (who is also another tiger leader) and the kid is gung ho to carry a knife to campouts. for what reason i have no idea.

i had the parent of a tiger tell me that his son wanted to earn the whitling chip so he could have a pocketknife at campouts. most all of the leaders were there and it was mentioned that we thoght it might be something for the rank of bear and above to be earned, but i mentioned i would look into it.

i was given the following as 'proof' that only bears can earn it.

http://www.geocities.com/~PACK215/whittlin-chip.html

http://www.macscouter.com/CubScouts/PowWow04/classes/knives.doc

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/award/award-434.asp

i disagreed and tried to use actual BSA policy from the cub leader handbook and guide to safe scouting. i even found an exellent link from this forum that provided some of the info i was looking for. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=97681

i would rather my son know how to safely handle a pocketknife and will teach him regardless.

it seems that some of the other leaders are afraid of a bunch of knife weilding maniacs. i think that we dont have to give the card to those that dont earn it - and carrying a pocketknife is not a God given right - at least so far as cub scouting is concerned.