hotair36

Many good comments in this thread. As a MB counselor I agree with Buffalo Skipper that some are better done in a group setting, be it at a unit level, merit badge midway or a set up group. I really like Citizenship in the World as a group effort for the older scouts. Where the requirement (e.g. 4c) says "pick 2 of the following..." in a group setting all of the scouts research and learn about all of the organizations. This also works for other MBs where the scouts(s) have research choices. I learned the hard way, during a Citizenship in Community session when the scout handed me the equivalent of a term paper for the "...explain to your counselor the history of your community requirement. When I asked what is this he replied that it's requirement # (whatever it was then). I said thats nice, now you tell me about your community and its history. The scout got very upset and told me that was it, his mom spent a lot of time typing it up. Needless to say that that scouts family thought I was the biggest so & so MB counselor around and would not recommend that another scout from that unit contact me. However, the buddy that was with him and the buddy's parent thought that I handled it correctly. The accompanying parent, who was also a counselor for some other MBs, later told me he learned a lesson from the experience and we both think that group discussions in a lot of MBs is valuable.

That being said, group efforts can be a really good way of doing many MBs.

One other thought, a group session by its very nature covers the two deep, no one on one, contact issue. And a counselor, I always seem to learn something from the scouts.

If someone has offered to keep your children for both weekends go and do it. It is not uncommon for two scouters in the same family to take Wood Badge at the same time/same course. Last year I was on the staff of a course where we 3 sets of husband and wife participants.

I know they both had a positive experience Wood Badge and now have shared memories. You should be in different patrols and as a result your experiences will be slightly different yet complement one another.

You will really enhance your family dynamic when your son(s) complete NYLT and all of you have a similar experience and common background.

Do it and enjoy it.

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The balloons you have seen at the Jamboree are owned and operated by a scouting family from Louisiana. They come to the Jamboree as quasi staff and tether at the arena shows and a few other locations. Same for the Army balloon although the pilot of that aircraft is/was on an Active Guard/Reserve tour in support of recruiting command. If you could not guess from my screen name I'm also a balloon pilot. The G2SS rules are that no scout is to RIDE in a hot air balloon tethered or not. Ride is the key word. The balloons are on display and no rides are available. Contact your local balloon club or the Balloon Federation of America to locate pilots in your area who might be enticed to tether at your event. I will caution you that a large space is needed for each balloon and I would offer to refill the pilots propane tanks for him/her. A typical 1 hour inflation will use 3 tanks of propane (generally 10 gal fork lift style), depending on ambient temperature. One more note, a few years ago New Jersey enacted some restrictive laws concerning the operation of Lighter than Air Craft, Free Balloons in certain areas. I dont recall if it was state wide or localized so check with a local pilot. I hope this sheds some insight to you question and as balloonists say Soft Landings

Did you do your WB course out of council, at a distance away, and thus your CD/SM sent everything to your home council? That is one reasonable explanation for the white envelope. If so it should have gone through your home council WB coordinator. If that is not the case you got short changed. A bead ceremony is a time for your patrol to again get together with who ever you invite and if it's in front of adults to spread the word. I have seen beads presented at unit Courts of Honor, at Roundtables, at special unit family outings, at Blue and Golds, at Wood Badge Reunion dinners, and at BSLT.

If your DE (like many) is new to the program or is not a WB graduate he/she may not have been aware of what to do with the package and just was passing out the distribution items.(This message has been edited by hotair36)

I think some are missing the reason the course is called "TRAINERS EDGE".

Yes, a portion of the course is explaining the EDGE method, what it is etc. The entire course focuses on Explaining, Demonstrating, Guiding and, Enabling participants in the use of various presentation methods, preparing a presentation, leading a discussion, directing traffic and to some extent team building. The use of Ice Breakers, group discussion, and buzz group facilitation are examples that MODEL the concepts which are the core of the course. This is how the course and staff EXPLAIN, DEMONSTRATE, GUIDE and ENABLE (EDGE) the multiple methods of instruction available to trainers.

The course presents multiple ways to instruct and then the participants put it into practice (the Enabling part) by then making a 5 to 10 minute individual presentation.

Trainers EDGE is a requirement for WB and NYLT staff as stated in syllabus for each course. NO, it is not just a rehash of past versions of train the trainer. Look at the new requirements for Tenderfoot and Life. Our youth members are required to teach a skill using the EDGE model. Both WB21C and NYLT place emphasis on the EDGE model. The council I am affiliated with has offered TRAINERS EDGE twice since it came out(2009 & 2010) and both courses have been well attended by a combination of youth and adults, WB & NYLT staffs and other trainers. Yes, even unit leaders and others who are not directly related to a training staff, but do understand the value of getting the same message and method(s) of instruction across all programs. OK I admit Im a fan of Trainers Edge and the EDGE method.

If you are going to be on staff for either a WB21C course, NYLT or NYLE you should attend (the requirement is complete Trainers EDGE within the past 2 years). You will learn something and improve you own presentation skills along with getting the message of what our Scouts must do to advance and demonstrate leadership by teaching a skill to others.

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I got my Stetson Long Oval during my camp staff years in the late 60's early 70's.

The label inside says "STETSON, Scout Master, Long Oval, with the BSA Seal (Supply Division)" and the price tag is still sewn into the sweat band, $8.85, complete with BSA leather hat band and chin strap.

I keep it in a hat press and it still looks like new since I only wear it on special occasions, most recently as a WB21C troop guide. Our council tends to have the WB CD/SM wear the Smokey for the entire course. The senior staff don theirs later (2d weekend) and the troop guides wear them beginning on the 5th day, through the course closing and bead ceremonies etc.

I picked up second one, in more experienced condition, at a swap meet last year for $15 or $20.

The Campaign Hat is still good looking head gear and relevant as a symbol of scouting.

Go for it, wear it, and set an example

The NYLT or NYLE Scoutmaster (Course Director again for 2011 co-ed course) can be recognized with a 4th bead if she/he meets the requirements listed in the NYLT Staff guide (must have been a TG for a 21CWB course, attended EDGE training na dattended a regional Course Director conference within the past 12 monts). Assistant Scoutmasters (no other positions qualify)who meet the requirements (completed WB21C and earned their beads, participate in all staff development activities, attend Trainers Edge)can be recognized with a 3d bead. The SM /CD must complete a Scoutmaster Pledge and have the course approved.

The recognition items (beads and certificates are ordered the same way as Wood Badge recognition items. Central Region had the order form on it's web site and the form is in the appendix for the draft 2011 syllabus.

Present the recognition items at your staff banquet the night before the course begins the same as is done for most Wood Badge courses

I think it is your council scout shop or whoever orders for Wood Badge is the person to place the order for the recognition items after the approval of the area NYLT coordinator. Certificates are similar t Wood Badge for Course Director and Assistant Course Directors.

Well my 2 cents worth. The CO can, and will, be as involved with it's sponsored unit(s) to the extent that the units show some interest in the charter partner and it's programs. Example - My troop (I'm the SM) is sponsored by a VFW post. Four of the troop leaders are members of the sponsoring organization and 2 are officers. A number of the post members have or had family members in scouting and know what the program is. Recently one of our scouts completed his Eagle Scout Service Project (ESSP) geared entierly around service to the local veterans community, the sponsoring organization and the local veterans home. The response from the VFW was teriffic (the members asked if the recognition event could become an annual event), the veterans home received some needed supplies and the post got a time consuming administrative project completed by the scouts working on the ESSP. For the scout's Eagle BOR the IH served on the board and as such we show the CO and community our value and maintain a good relationship.

As to COR's as voting members look what happened in the Chicago Area Council over the last few years. Some actions were undertaken by the Council Executive Board that did not sit well with the traditional scouting community and the CORs were mobilized to vote down (more than once) a slate of council offices. Finally a slate more in tune with the desires of the traditional membership base was submitted and the COR's voted to accept it and a relative calm has returned. Chartered Organizations, IH's and COR's are a plus and realy will be involved if we engage them in the program and keep them informed of why we are a value added to the community and their organization.

OK I also admit you can't do anything with a IH who has a bias against scouting.

As for meeting any requirements of the CO for YPT type training required or administered by that organization (i.e.United Methodist Church training referenced above) DO THE TRAINING and keep a good relationship with charter partner. Every training session I have attended I learned something even if I have already "been there, done that, got the T shirt" in some other form. We require YPT every 2 years so why not see things from a different light.

Vicki: You are right about what should happen if a 1099 appears with the CO's number on it. My comment concerning the use of the EIN/TIN of another entity was in the context of a unit sponsored by a charter partner such as a veterans service organization which often has non exempt income from things like a club room operation, facility rentals etc. Some of these sponsors have substantial revenue and are becomming an audit target.

We know that it should not be done but some units, especially new units, want to open a checking account as soon as they have collected the initial dues and registration fees to submit with a charter application. They have not obtained a EIN/TIN for the unit and will use the treasurer or unit leader's TIN (SSN) to open the new account and then they forget about it. If they have an account that might earn interest and are successful in any future fund raising efforts an IRP transcript would show unreported income for the TIN on record with the financial institution. I admit this isn't likely to happen but, what if a few years down the road the unit leadership changes and the unit suddenly does have earnings from the account? The TIN associated with the account will show as the recipient of the earnings. I doubt that most leaders who might get a 1099 from this scenario would be savvy enough to then issue a 1098 showing the correct recipient.

The best solution is for each unit to obtain its own EIN/TIN via the IRS Tele-Tin phone line or web site.

Beavah:

If you want the cite for who is responsible for the accuracy of the return, it is Title 26 US Code, 7206(1) Subscription to a false return under penalty of perjury (3 year felony). Aiding and assisting in the preperation and filing of a false return is 26 USC 7206(2), also a 3 year felony.

Deducting the leader fee for summer camp or the Jamboree staff fee was common a few years ago but, National no longer issues a letter for the staff fee and I suspect someone claimed the staff fee, got audited and lost and BSA national no longer issues a letter.

In response to Vicki, "with her accountant's hat on", she wrote "Tax deductibility of donations should not be confused with using the CO's EIN for a bank account. The former is something in which the IRS may take an intense interest, but they could care less about the latter (unless and until there is fraud or other chicanery, then all bets are off, obviously)."

You are correct that the US Tax Court is the forum for resolving disputes and any advice from an attorney and/or account is just advice. The taxpayer signing the return is responsible for it's accuracy and truthfulness.

A clarification though needs to be made concerning the use of another entity EIN/TIN. IF and WHEN an IRP (Information Returns matching Program) run is made in a service center and checked against a filed return (either a 990, 990N, 1120 series or 1040 series return) and the amounts reported on all 1099's do not total the reported income that is when an audit issue arises. That is why a unit should obtain it's own EIN/TIN and most likely have no filing requirement or a diminimis tax liability.

The amount of a leaders fee at camp would not be an itemized deduction since something of value (food) is received for the payment.

OK, like BadenP, I admit to being a retired IRS agent.

In an earlier post I stated "Remember, we are teaching LEADERSHIP and INSTRUCTIONAL (EDGE method) skills, not just outdoor scout skills, in both NYLT and WB21C, even though it is delivered using the patrol method (a/k/a small group break out or teams)."

NYLT and WB21C are similar but not the same course. The subject matter is taught on a different level for WB21C and uses a more thought provoking set of questions in some of the activities and team building exercises. That said NYLT does not include some of the subjects (i.e. Generations etc.) and does not start with participants in a Den as Cub Scouts and progress into the Venturing program.

EMB21 writes, in part, "...that some of my fellow scouters of the same age didn't see the value in going to WB. They felt as Eagle Scouts, having gone thru & staffed TLTC (the NYLT of its day) that there was nothing for them to learn in WB..."

There are many things that can be learned from both WB21C and the current NYLT. Among them are the leadership and team building /team work aspects which can (and should) apply to the world outside of scouting. We all learn something, no matter how insignificant it may seem at the time, from each training event we participate in.

Just my thoughts.

I recently attended the CR course directors conference and later got a copy of the presentation made at the last regional meeting. YES...NYLT will be open to Venturers, if memory serves me correctly, in 2011 and is optional for 2010. Co-Ed training is part of the plan. A draft of the revised syllabus is due out this month or early December.

Remember, we are teaching LEADERSHIP and INSTRUCTIONAL (EDGE method) skills, not just outdoor scout skills, in both NYLT and WB21C, even though it is delivered using the patrol method (a/k/a small group break out or teams). This is also why WB recognition is authorized for certain NYLT adult positions. And, in case it was overlooked, Wood Badge for the 21st Century is now open to all 18 year olds no matter what program so that includes Troop or Pack level ACMs and ASMs, active Venture Crew and Sea Scout Ship members.

I think the initial question was answered when we found out that the CC is the COR. He/She gets a voice either way. CC as tie breaker or COR/IH as approval function.

Is the COR an active member of the District Committee or Council? CORs are the voting members, just ask how that worked in Chicago when the CORs were mobilized and voted down the nominated slates for Council officers multiple times.

Some scouts are just more outgoing than others. Help the scout by explaining that the process has not changed since he went for his first BOR. A 1 on 1 by a senior scout may help the younger scout feel more at ease .

Speaking of senior scouts, nothing says that the BOR has to be all adults. I know a number of troops that include a scout of at least 1 rank higher on BORs (e.g. a Star or Life scout on a BOR for 2d or 1st class; a 1st class scout for tenderfoot or a 2d class BOR). Its amazing how the nervous scout becomes more confident when a peer is in a position of responsibility along with 2 adults. The participating youth members feel they are truly in a leadership position of responsibility and are very good and knowing the scouts strengths and how to ask the correct questions assuming that the BORs they went through were meaningful.

On a related subject Any comments on the use of standing Eagle BORs at the Council and / or District level? I know that some councils have a standing Eagle Boards on the XX night of each month. You show up with or with out 1 or more adults to assist and any number of Eagle BORs are conducted. Some districts also follow this practice. Depending on the Council and/or district the unit can opt out and set up there own Eagle board with a Council/District representative in attendance. Does any one have any experience with these arrangements? Some like the standing boards since the take some of the load off of the local unit and provide an independent BOR who may or may not know the candidate. Some like the local unit BOR since the scout is more likely to ne within a comfort zone of adults but the local unit has more responsibility for the administration and control.

The scout who is under stress for his Tenderfoot, 2d Class or 1st Class BOR at the Troop level probably would have a melt down with the standing BOR concept.

I guess I don't know where any state parks (some of which were closed by our former, now indicted governor) are that have "primitive areas". Same with National Parks (arent any around this area except for a few National Historic Sites that have regular business hours). Yes, some state and county parks, national forests etc are around but, they require permits in advance unless you are camping as a group or are in the family or general public area where admission is on a per diem basis.

They do lock the gates, I know since recently our district held its spring camporee at a county park. Some family members and district staff were locked in following the evening campfire and OA call out ceremony. Try to find a ranger or Sheriffs deputy at 10:00 PM after the park closed at 8:00 PM (sunset) to let the people out was not an easy task. Lets not even go down the road of what the thought pattern was when we realized that not only could people not get out but, an ambulance, if needed, could not get in. The problem got resolved but I think it illustrates the difficulties involved in trying to let a patrol do an over night on its own when not on a scout property or in conjunction with a scouting event.

As to the reference in a Guide to Safe Scouting - Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

1. Two-deep leadership:

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required.

The Guide to Safe Scouting also states in paragraph 2 under TOUR PERMITS: Tour permits have become recognized by national parks, military institutions, and other organizations as proof that a unit activity has been well planned and organized and is under capable and qualified leadership. These organizations may require the tour permit for entry.

I dont think that any council is going to issue a tour permit for a Boy Scout outing (note I did not reference Most short in town DEN trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit). Given the choice, I think I will opt for the tour permit thus giving legitimacy to the activity along with the related liability and insurance coverage that comes from my local council. If you dont follow the rules (i.e. Tour Permit) you can and most likely will be on your own for coverage. If a scout is injured and the BSA accident insurance is needed it is a lot easier if the activity had the requisite paper work (approved Tour Permit) on file.

Yes I am from a major metropolitan area in the Midwest.

OK my comments as a new guy to the forums but with 50+ years in the BSA.

1) Wood Badge in the 1960's was by invitation and targeted to trainers. Yes it had an emphasis on outdoor/scout craft skills but the focus was also on HOW TO TEACH those skills to other leaders and scouts. Sounds a lot like the current management and EDGE focus of todays training. So I guess things haven't changed all that much they just have gotten more modern.

2) Patrol hikes without adult supervision? What are you people thinking? Two deep leadership is a requirement, along with youth protection training.

3) Urban environments generally do not allow for a lot of the outdoor activities "away from the car" unless you get 50 or 100 miles out. Can't do that without a car.

4) This sort of relates to one of the revised camping MB requirements where (I'm paraphrasing) "...on one of these outings hike and gain a minimum of 1000 ft in vertical altitude..." When you are in the Midwest and the elevation runs around 620 ft MSL for miles and miles does it count if the outing includes a trip into the city and the scouts climb up the stairs of the Willis (formerly Sears) tower.

The outing in scouting is not dead; it is just a fact of our current society. What is available for many scouts and leaders outside of metropolitan areas is not always available to those in population centers. This is a particularly vexing issue when councils are disposing of camping properties and public parks close at sunset. I can't see a patrol campout when the local PD or conservation police or forest preserve district police enforce closing times and curfews.

I can just see it: "Hello Mr. Jones, this is Scoutmaster Smith calling to ask you to go the XYZ police department to pick up you son who was arrested for loitering in the park after 10:30 PM. Yes, I have to call each parent and ask them to do the same. If you could, would you please ask you wife, the attorney, to meet us at the Police Department to serve as legal counsel since the DCFS (Department of Children and Family Services) will be conducting an investigation of all of us for child endangerment for allowing the scouts to roam free.

Perhaps the training revisions need to include more crisis management skills.

I first began reading this forum by accident a few days ago and decided to wait before responding. Now I can respond with a clear head. It appears many of the posters have very set positions and thats OK. However my positions are:

1) A 3rd bead for an ASM who has completed 21st Century WB and is STAFFING the NYLT course is appropriate. That adult is talking on a responsibility for mentorship of the youth staff and making sure the course follows the syllabus. This is no different that serving as a Troop Guide, or in another required staff position, on a 21CWB adult course. Oh wait, one big difference is the time commitment. NYLT courses are generally a full week and although a 2 weekend option exists I don't know any council that does the weekend version.

2) For a NYLT Scoutmaster (a/k/a Course Director) to earn a 4th bead he/she MUST have served as a Troop Guide on a 21CWB course. They must also sign a Scoutmaster Pledge (same as a WB Scoutmaster).&nabs; The NYLT SM is responsible for staff recruitment, staffdevelopment, budget formulation, participant recruitment and final close out. Each of these steps or functions is the same as a WB Scoutmaster. So what is the difference? Only the age of the majority of the staff and all of the participants. The NYLT Scoutmaster and Wood Badge Scoutmaster have the same position description in reality.And both 21C WB and NYLT have the same required minimum and maximum participant levels (30 participants 30 day out,and a maximum of 48 participants).

3) Are some of these feelings concerning the beads back again from when Cub Scout Wood Badge came out?Didn't some feel that Cub Scout Wood Badge "wasn't really Wood Badge"?

4) Apparently no one has a problem with people earning a 3d bead for staffing a NAYLE (National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience) or a 4th bead as Scoutmaster for the NAYLE course at Philmont. Yes you can also earn the recognition for these courses.

I'm finished with my comments but they come from the perspective of having seen both sides. The programs are parallel and complement each other. The recognition should be the same.