highcountry

I'm with XLPAnel. I find the same thing, kids would like to get home and get some fresh cloths and a shower and some need a nap after ou campouts (Hikes, up late by the campfire etc). Leaders want to get home shower, change maybe a nap and be with the rest of the family before Monday and Work rolls around again. My wife is happy when we are back early enough that we can do some family stuff together and maybe I can get a project worked on at home.

We are up by 6 am on Sunday, break camp and wheels are rolling by 9, we are home by 10. Kids who's familys insist on making church pick them up and theri wishes are accomodated. I Once had a porpective scout who was crossing over from Webelos II and there was a lot of concern from the parent about church and services on Sunday. I told them we were back early enough to accomodate everyone. That wasn't good enough so I then offered his Son could be Cahplin Aid. That wasn't good enough. Then I suggested the father join as an adult leader and conduct what ever specialized service he was looking for. He backed away and insinuated I shoud be running a custome service for which ever demonination he and his son followed. I told him I was a volunteer, taking my time to run the troop, I had tried to accomodate him and non of my proposals were what he wanted, he basically wanted for me to add yet another thing on my to do list on campouts. When it was clear I wasn't going to provide what they alone wanted they decfided not to join. The son went into TiKwon Do and never joined any troop, he is happy and woring hard at that martial art and our troop continues to hum along. Religion is a touchy thing, it is hard enough to run a troop, I am not stepping into the religion hornet's nest. I leave it up to the parents and accomodate them.

I pick my battles, uniforming is not one of the higher priorities, however, uniforming with my troop has greatly improved since I took over as SM 3 years ago and I do use some mechanisms (Occasional Uniform inspections with patrol points awarded, encourage my sons to wear full uniform to meetings and important events)to try to always improve uniforming in the troop. I am happy we have greatly improved use of the uniform but I have bigger fish to fry, if the Uniform Police wast to get up tight about it fine for them, we are too busy having fun and concentrating on more productive things.

When I took over, almost no one wore any part of the uniform. Today I have almost 100% wearing at least a class A shirt to troop meetings. I have several who wear pretty much the entire uniform, others might wear casual pants of green or kahki that look decent. Yes I too still have a number of kids wearing Ball caps on backwards, shirts not tucked in, kids with swim trunks and flip flops to meetings etc. The SPL and PL's remind them but some kids don't change. We always have them wear at least the class A shirt to Opening flags and Dinner at Summer camp as well as going to Summer Camp (If the drive is within 3 hours from home), they are requested to wear the uniform at troop meetings and it is expected at COH and ECOH. We don't wear them to local campouts, hikes, backpackers etc. No point in having to change when you arrive at a campsite on a Friday evening with less than 2 hrs to set up camp etc. Don't need to add the wear and tear and extra washings for a uniform only seen by those who ride together in a car.

I agree with 2 cub dad, the BSA tells us to develop leadership, hard work and personal responsibility in boys through the program but then tells us that if the boy never shows up or participates we are supposed to advance him .....What ? Sounds like a contradiction. If all a boy needs be is to be registered and not kicked out he is considered active. I ask you then, why even have troops, lets all go to lone scouts. Why make the efforts to encourage patrol method and leadership when the scouts see that an inactive do nothing gets to move along just as well as the boys who actually show, learn and particpate ? Thats a bad lesson to pass along, to show that one can take the lazy way out and still advance in ranks. Any smart kid would end up asking himself why he bothers to participate when he can lone scout it and get the ranks ?

I really don't care if a scout is 50% active (meetings and events) or 100% active as long as he is not making 20% of meetings and 0% of activities.

Being active in a POR for 4 or 6 months is tough to call. We all try and give kids a second chance and coach them instead of yanking the POR from a kid after only a few months of inactivity, however, our troop is now more vigilant to yank a POR more quickly for an inactive scout so he can't claim he held a POR (for which he did nothing) for the required time and thus he earned rank.

Fortunately I have very few problem scouts like this, the most recent was looking to earn Eagle early this summer but has been AWOL on nearly all troop meetings, patrol Leaders Council all campouts for 9 months (made only one in the last 15 months) and did NOTHING regarding his POR. He was told verbally to not bother any longer as he would not get his Eagle Project Approved, would not get merit abdges credited and would not get Scout Spirit or SM review due to his being totally absent and un engaged. HE learned he wouldn't win the battle and disappeared. I am not talking about a generally decent scout otherwise, I am talking about someone who is alomost NEVER there, shows no effort or leadership, did nothing, his mom just wants to see him get his Eagle. Sorry without being here to demonstrate leadership and spirit you don't deserve it.

The boy led comments are spot on, I hadn't mentioned it to keep my response shorter, but it is another reason I like to run things like bike rides, skiing, paintball etc this way. We are getting improved boy led situation on planning and running troop meetings, and campouts but hav e along way to go. When a scout is intrinsicly interested in running an additional special activity, the self motivation to plan, organize, promote and run the activity teaches him a lot, even if he is running an event outside the troop, what he learns benefits him and the troop whne he is involved in helping plan meetings and campouts later on.

I just had paintball and lazer tag come up in a couple of scouts board of reviews last night. (Some of the same scouts who come to my house to hang out with my kids and play airsoft on their own time). I'm offering the main proppnent of this the challenge of organizing the lazer tag or paintball activity. He know that this is to be done without using scout funds, without getting a discount based on any relation to troop and BSA, and to organize it on his own via email and phone calls, no sign up sheet at meetings. It will not be a substitute for another troop activity or meeting. He can call whomever he wishes to invite, all scouts, some scouts and some non scouts. This way they get to do the activity and there is no worry about considering BSA's rules over this matter. Easy as that. It has no relation to scouts, BSA has no jurisdiction on any BSA member's personal life outside scouting (Unless they are found to be a felon or child abuser or soime other considerable situation).

Fscouter, I don't know what kind of world you are living in. As I noted I have an inactive scout and I could care less about his lack of attendance at meetings and activities as far as my feeling insulted....whatever.

Mine, and all the other adult leaders and pretty much every scoout in my unit feels he is not a good scout as he is not there, he shows no leadership, no responsibility, he makes some commitments and then blows them off. To pass this kid along to eagle would be an insult to every kid who actually did the worka and EARNED IT. The rank is the highest one scouting offers and to cheapen it and give it to kids who really do not desrve it waters down it's value and cheapens the BSA.

I like your simple minded assumption that the meetings and campouts for units you do not have one clue about must be boring or useless. MAybe if your units activites and meetings are boring does not automatically make every units the same way.

Sure a scout can be registered, do all his MB's at colleges and at home, set up an eagle project and have friends come out and help out with it and never show to a meeting or activity. That doesn't show much in the way of leadership, responsibility and the other values we try to teach, he is not part of the team, not part of the group, he is not contributing he is not learning much of what the program is all about. If BSA wants to allow kids to be considered scouts when all they are doing is basically homework to finish badges, then why bother with troops and all the troop activities at all ? Why pass a kid along to eagle who is MIA and demonstrates little to none of the qualities we try to teach when other kids who do show up, do contribute, do learn and grow and help make the troop/patrol function get teh same award. FScouter, kids aren't dumb, they see the slackers and trouble makers and will tell you it is unfair that lazy scouter A earns the Same Eagle Ambitious scouter B gets. Do you not realize that that happening you will get some scouts who will loose faith in the value of the program and drop out, and others to not bother with Eagel since the award doen't seem to mean much, yet others that may say to heck with it, I'm takin the easy route and doing merit badges at home doing a quickie eagle project and getting the award with the Least possible work....just like Lazy Scout A we just passed who was MIA all the time. In the real world that is what things will evolve into and down the road, making Eagle will have no value at all.

FYI, my problem scout A was missing again last night at the troop meeting. With 12 weeks to go to 18 he still hasn't changed. I am being a little prick and sending him a note he is stripped of his POR due to lack of doing anything. I have full backing of all adult leaders and every single scout sees this kid for what he is. If he wants eagle he will have to find another troop to sign stuff off and drag him across the finish line.

We created a budget figure for the boys to plan against. Without some sort of guidelines for the boys to think around things get unorganized.

We have a budget figure of 3 bucks per scout per meal which is actually a little low when you consider this includes Propane, Mantles, Lantern Globes, Batteries and other consumables. Adult leaders attending events do not kick in for thier food costs, the $3 per kid per meal provides enough to cover the adults who are donating their time vehicles and gasoline to make it happen. It also includes enough to provide drinks, snack bars and fruit and crackerbarrel. We have trained the boys that if they plan anything to the heavy side of estimated quantity, to do so on the non perishibles so they can go to stocking lockup pantry. Once in a while we can do a cheap campout using lockup stock and the extra money then restocks the consumables like Propane etc at that time. We have 2 supermarkets and a third source where we get donated or greatly discounted food items to help reduce cost.

The boys plan the meals, figure the costs, generate the grocery list etc. The CC gets the groceries, he is on diability and is home during the weekdays and has free time to get this accomplished where all the other adult leaders work down in the city and don't make it home weeknights til after 6 pm. We plan, cook and eat as a troop, I have heard all kinds of agruements about using Patrol method but my reality is it simply will not work in our troop. With Troop method there is one grocery list, patrol method could create 3 lists. If I had to have 3 seperate folks be depended on to get out and shop I would always have one who forgot or didn't have the time etc. Our campouts have a mix on the patrols, some have all 7 show up while another patrol may only have one or two, the other might have 3. From initial sign up to who actually attends changes too. I might have 15 sign up, 3 of the leader core, and 4 from each patrol, but when we actually go, we have 12 attend, say 2 from the leader core, one from patrol A, 3 from Patrol B and 7 from patrol C. With troop menu and one overall grocery shop we are covered, had we shopped 3 individual patrols, we would have some with too little of their ingredients, some with too much of thier ingredients and one patrol with one kid cooking alone. We do have Each patrol cook one item for the meal, and that is their contribution toward the troop dinner.

I'm with Lisa on this, and this is another example of the kind of things that accumulate and burn leaders out.....Un reasonable adults who insist on silly requests and try to foist the burden on th you. This one is easy to eliminate from your burnout-stress items. Tell them they can either do their service at the same time as th interfaith service OR do thiers at any time but you are not required, and will not, schedule any time during the event for just thier requesat. A council or distict evenbt is a complex thing to put together, with individual units coming up with special requests to manipulate the schedule and then Insist on it and Insist you accomdate it boarders on insanity. After making the position clear, if they continue to try and make contact and INSIST what you MUST do, make use of the delete key. The only one getting hot under the collar will be them whichh is as it should be, they are the one creating the issue so they can live with the stress not you.

I have a good pointer.....make sure you keep problem people out of your committee, and adult leader positions. We have all seen plenty of threads regarding difficult people that are ruining troops and packs. As everyone knows I had the Committee Chair from below and barely got her fired before I lost more than half the troop. Everone knew this individual was a MAJOR problem when she got the position but since no one was willing to volunteer to be CC, she got the position as there was no one to fill it. A monkey with a pulse would have been elected before her. I try and point that out to adults from time to time that if they are too busy, the default could be more work than someone stepping up to teh plate. I know my troop will never let an problem adult in to a psotion because no one will run agaisnt ehm after what we had to live through 2 years ago. Don't learn this lesson the hard way in your unit.

ASM I appreciate the pointers but the problem is in my real world that problems are always coming up that Rarely can be a dilema for the boys to resolve and only sometimes can be delegated to another adult leader, I do try when I can. There are problems adult leders in my group do try and handle but when push comes to shove, it nearly always comes back to me.....the SM. There are critical issues, time senstive things that have to get done many times that just ccan't be effectively delegated. When someone has issues, questions etc, 90% of the time they come to me. When I can I always deflect these off to PL, SPL, ASM, Advancement Chair, Treasurer etc but even after all of this there is a major work load and time commitment as an SM. I can provide a boat load of valid examples bu I think everone here knows what I am talking about. I have a pretty decent crew of adult leaders but sometimes some need a few jump starts to get engaged and sometimes some don't do a complete job or drop the ball or fail to communicate when they hit a sticking point etc. and when the critical hour comes and the major problem appears I have to jump in and fix it or an activity will end up cancelled or a meeting will have no plan or an arrow of light ceremony will get no support form out troop, or we have ride issues to a distant summer camp at the last minute etc etc. I wish it was that simple and I make every attempt to get people trained and in thegroove, they know the expectations, it happens and there isn't a lot that can be done other than 2 choices.....deal with it immediately, or allow the event, meeting whatever to fall apart. With teh fall apart option I then get to hear all the complaints from parents and scouts how nothing is going on, they are bored, maybe we should find another troop etc.

We are trying hard not to be the hour and a half of entertainmentevery other week, camp for entertainment type troop but a lot of it is trying to change the peerception of what scouting is in the minds of most parents. Many when you press them a bit do get the concept that we are trying to develop responsibility, leadership etc through the BSA program and outdoors but when push comes to shove in their busy daily lives, the scout meeting is another tick on the calendar, the campout a fun adventure they need to pack for and allow for and not much more thought than that. If troop meetings are not engaging everone I get complaints, that "Johnny" was bored (Older scouts already tried to include him on wht the other scouts his age were doing but he didn't want to participate)....or parents complain their kids doesn't want to show up unless the meeting is "FUN"....they keep thinking we are there to entertain kids like cubs was and don't get teh concept of what BOY scouts and the meeting structure is about.

We are mostly a car camping troop and are proud of it. We are introducing some backpacking this year and have had a number of through troop meetings aimed at complete and thoughtful planning and packing. We have also increased the number and level of hikes to prepare for this. The bottom line though is that even though we are in the rockies, it has been hard to get kids to want to camp in the past. Left to theri own devices they used to want to do things like Bowling or Lazar tag and the like for activities. I managed to streer them into at least car camping and they now embrace that and our campouts are well attended and they are productive. Now the step to tery and backpack, although I have protests from some parents and scouts about it. I have encouraged some of these folks to plan an alernative event such as cycling or caving but so far nothing happening, deep down they really want me to take their suggestion up and run with it for them. The complainers on teh backpacking are about 10 percent of the troop and about half the troop is signed up for the backpackers.

Previous SM had rare campouts, they did summer camp, Camporee and Klondike but outside that they camped about once per year on their own, twice at best and attendance was mostly very light. My wife tells me I have hit a good formula for now as attendance is good and the boys really enjoy themselves, teh parents come to me with praise as theri boys are ahving a good time and learning ....things could be far worse. I have no regrets about car camping. We have offered whitewater but have had to cancel in teh past for lack of interest and cost, we offered bike trips as well but cancelled every time except one for lack of interest. Our ski outings have been cancelled as well due to lack of sign ups or late cancellations. Every scout is welcome to add and event to plan and communicate and organize but to date, tehy seem to think that if they simply offer the idea some adult will step in and run it for them and that is not what we are trying to do in our troop.

Adults "can't do it all" - boy-led allows the leadership to be spread out over the whole troop and will keep the adults from burning out. Adults that burn out are simply not teaching the boys to lead. I've been working with youth groups for 40 years and have never burned out, simply because when they lead themselves there's no excuse for being over-burdened.

Stosh

Stosh, that's a nice thought but I'd wager at least 75% of the problems I have had, and those I witnessed before I took over as SM and those I have seen in the feeder the packs....and those I have heard about at other troops in the area are adult caused. Boy led troop is going to do little to nothing to mitigate problem adults. I think most of the 86 reasons related to adult created problems, I already shared the list with my adult volunteers and we definitely can add more to the list, probably take it to 100 reasons and almsot every single addition is another adult created issue.

Hopefully the moderators will do thier job and remove the complete idiot/troll that has decided to try and get his jollies here. From the quality of his thought process I would guess he is a disfunctional 10 year old with time on his hands.

Not constructing fake barriers at all. Until I remindeed him and his parents for 7 months to make an activity, he had not been on ANY troop activity in 20 months. At the same time I was reminding the scout and the parent they had not been at a troop meeting in 5 months and only about 20% attendance before that. I got the "ya know...baseball" excuse from Mom. I had to pull his POR a year and a half ago and told them he could not have one until he began to show up again. He came to one PLC last fall, showed up late, left early and paid no attention, he distracted others with side bar jokes while there. This PLC was during a campout he signed up for, then didn't show, he wanted to go biking with his buddies instead when they called at the last minute. He wanted an extra outing in January, he was going to set up a ski outing, got it going, then the real reason killed the event, his buddies (non scouts) he wanted to ski with cancelled so he dropped the ball and the event died for everyone. He has not made a PLC ever since. Myself and an ASM had to have a come to god discussion with this scout last Novemeber to try and get him doing much of anything. He had his SM review and BOR for life in December with 7 months left to make Eagle. I told him then to create a plan on how to get his MB's done, his eagle project etc, keep in mind BAseball was starting in late February. I ahve heard nothing since.

So who here is creating the road blocks, me, the other adult leaders or this scout himself ? I'll be damned as does our committee feel, we are going to do anything for this lad when he has done nothing for the troop or himself.

F scouter, I think one of your assumption's is terribly simplistic...to get him active or you have failed. For you to assume that a scoutmaster has failed because he is not able to get any individual kid to be active, that it is all on the scoutmaster and he can overcome any set of reasons for any scout's inactivity is un-realistic.

Scouts become inactive for many reasons, many of which a SM has little to no control over. If a SM is to avoid failure in your eyes, he would have to spend an extrordiary amount of time catering to the indiviual needs and characteristics of evey single dis-engaged scout. I prefer to put my time in providing a program the majority has asked for and what BSA intends I do my best to deliver. Are you saying you have never had an inactive or dropped out scout ? If you have then you have failed just like probably every single adult elader there has ever been. frequently the reason for inactivity and dropping out is in the hands of thee scout and there is where the "blame" lies, not with an adult leader who is providing a good program.

As for being active means you paid your dues and continued consuming oxygen....sorry, to EARN rank you have to make and effort and accomplish achievements.

As for the first problem Eagle candidate I outlined, he has had more communication, encouragement, coaching, goal setting, mentors his age, support from adults etc you could imagine, we had to nearly drag him across the finish line to life. He suggested the scouts doing more planning and prep work for meetings, I have tried to get him to take action and motivate others in this, but he appears the only effort he wanted to make in this regard was to make the suggestion and disappear. He wanted to do some cycling trips and skiing, we put it on the calendar, he didn't help organize or promote it despite my encouragement, he didn't even sign up foir the activities he wanted ! Afterward, his parents told mne he just got busy and didn't know what to do and was just hoping I would pick the ball up and run it for him.

Fscouter....you can't change every single individual, sometimes they decided to fail and there's nothing you can do about it.

It is preposterous that the BSA program is there for us to coach boys into young men, teach things like responsibility, accountability and leadership, then turn around and in instances such as this, tell us thay can go ahead and earn achievements anyway even if they did not demonstrate those qualities we are supposed to see them develop. Why then even have requirements ? If that is how it works, then I'll head on down to my bosses office right now and demand I be promoted to CEO, ignoring the fact I don't demonstrate the apptitude or skills or experience required for the spot, heck, I was here and I was breathing, that's good enough by "the rules" and if he won't get me the position, I'll just go over his head and appeal. This is beyond ridiculous !

I have 2 Scouts currently who are somewhat of an issue regarding eagle. The closest one has demonstrated a somewhat poor attitide, work ethic and commitment, he is 12.5 weeks away from turning 18 and has been encouraged by me and others to pick it up or he won't get sign offs on his eagle. I could care less that he is registered and Breathing and wasn't bad enough to become suspended, he does not demonstrate the qualities of what it takes to be an Eagle scout. I view passing this kid along to Eagle just as poorly as saying a kid passed a merit badge who only did half the requirements.....he is not active, not participating and not showing leadership. Unless he has an epiphany and completely changes, he likely won't finish the 4 partiuals and one complete merit badge he needs, he has not even contacted anyone regarding an eagle project yet despite my leads, ideas and coaching. Both me, all the ASM's the CC, the Advancement and Merit badge counselours agree he is a lost cause. His parents can sometimes be butt heads so he is not only going to get a refusal from me and all the ASM's to sign scout spirit and scoutmaster conference, he is going to get delays on SM sign off on any eagle project, delays and rework requests from merit Coordinator for any partials and other delays until he is 18. At thsi point he is going to have to totaly convince all of us he is going to be an example of what an Eagle Scout is and to start pulling his own weight, not be nagged by his parents so they can get teh Eagel on his College apps when he didn't earn it. Any Appeal they might file is going to have to address not only the SM refusal to sign off on a conference and Spirit but the incomplete badges, the un done Eagle project etc. His detatchment was so bad, teh Board of review for his Life in December advised him they may want to set up a mid term board of review in March to let him know if he is in trouble regarding making eagle to give him enough time to turn it around. His particiaption and effort has been so bad, they felt it was not even worth having the meeting any more, that soon he will not have sufficient time to make it and it will all take care of itself. The delays and non sign off's will occur if he suddenly appears with 4 weeks to go with a bunch of merit badge write ups expecting for us to rush/drag him across the finish line. Bottom line it is not fair to all the kids who did the work and showed the qualities to warn eagle in teh past for a lazy kid like this to get rubber stamped so despite the word of the rule on active, we aren't doing it.

Second Scout has his head in the clouds, can't get motivated, has no idea where he is or what he is doing half the time, nice kid, not a drug user but just clueless (His parents are somewhat the same). he came to me last summer to sign off Spirit and SM review for Life and refused due to his lack of participation and attendance,he did nothing as a PL, gave him Den Chief and set out the expectations. I noted that at meetings I found he had no idea how to use a compass and map and other basic skills and he had no checkoffs from Merit and Advancement coordinator on his badges to Life. He did a good job as den Chief and came to the a SM review in December for life. I again sent him to the Avancement/merit coordinator for verification first.....he still needed to complete 2 eagle requierment badges that were partial for over 2 years ! I was amazed he came in looking for a SM conference and BOR and had not even bothered to look to see if he had all the requirements in place ! 4 months later, nothing changed except he is now 17 (still star). He is going to get a couple coaching sessions and after that let to his own to either pick it up and demonstrate responsibility or age out.

Can you tell I amk frustrated ?

Today's April First, right Beavah ?

Think this one's good, everyone in Denver beleives they are trading Cutler, odd that story re-broke when it did....everyone seems to worked up to look at a calendar

We combined Scribe with Librarian and Historian as all 3 positions alone require so little, but combined at least give a scout enough workload to be seriously considered a POR. As the Scribe ours creates the meeting agendas, prints them and emails them from what the PLC or delegates have created for the meeting. He also takes notes at PLC meetings, transcribes and publishes, primarily the action items. We don't collect dues at meetings and we have a roster with scheckoffs for each meeting so all the scouts handle attendance on their own as they walk in the door.

Not so much modern communication but communication itself is a major headache in our troop I will say that, I see this topic is evolving down that road already so I will contiue with my rants and observations. I don't see the need to go to any other modes of communication, we already use several ones that SHOULD be effective. The problems I see are.....

People Don't read email, or paper copies provided at meetings, paper copies mailed direct or paper copies given face to face and explained. Anyhting sent with scouts is the proverbial Granite Table lost in the black hole (I like that analogy, spot on)

People have forgotten the concept of writing things down. In a day and age where everyone is so busy, I think it is even more important to jot down notes, keep a calendar, but it is so easy to reach for the "I'M busy I forgot" excuse that is supposed to make people like me shut up and go away.

Cluelessness. I have a number of scouts and parents that are bobbleheads. They are frequently there during troop meetings and the SPL announces the significant points on teh agenda and schedule, points to the sign up table in back where folks can also find meeting agenda, calendar, troop roster and more. I too get the "did I hear something about a campout, when, where ? from scouts in the troop 2-3 years. We have Always had the sign ups on the back table, teh signup explains all your questions, we even reducved it to a few bullet points so you don't have to strain to hard and read and comprehend a paragraph, yet, we get the same wothless qeustions.

We use email as an efficient means of communicating to groups, it covers attachements and updates can be sent fast, information forwarded etc. Reading and response is pathetic. We just had to change a campsite withing 2 weeks of the campoout date and asked for a vote on alternate. Of 26 scouts only 7 responded, 2 of those 7 were my own 2 boys at home. This is typical response rate.

We have a troop website and remind everone it's location on paper agendas and emails. It has a message board feature. No one uses thsi or goes there save to see some pictures once and a while.

We use phone tree SPL to PL's to their members when we have critical and time sensative information. We get a live person about one out of every 3 or 4 calls. We leave voice mail when ever we get one and make the communication clear. Add to it the now writing things down factor we get a lot of the "I forgot" response later on.

We went to a new activity sign up sheet when I took over as SM. Each Scout's name is listed and a yes or no check box is included. Explanation is asked for when no is checked, I would like the courtesy of scouts bothering to tell me yes or no after teh work that goes into events, but if scouts are not going because the event is not popular, I will try to see if more popular events make next years schedule and ideas like that. Use of the sign ups is dismal no matter how much is reminded by teh SPL in the announcements, one on one referal by myself or ASM's to scouts and parents at meetings, it really seems like many scouts and even parents seem to have vapor for brains. We may as well simply rtalk to the wall.

I have a committee member sending individual invitations to each scout household by mail right now regarding swim tests, we have had numerous email and announcement reminders, one on one reminders verbally, posted on our websites and flyers on teh activity sign up table. In 4 weeks we have had 9 scouts respond out of 26. This committee memebr is a teacher at a local private school and sees the same thing there, she has to send 3-5 notices out in different communication forms and she still sees way too many clueless people who never heard about it.

Our previous scoutmaster warned me about too much hand holding. He was short in comminicating and teaching people theri jobs, but he was mostly right, I knew that. I toold him that people couldn't be expected to do theri job right unless ther were shown and coached what that job was. It reaches a point where one says enough is enough though. Same deal with communication, I told him that I was going to be sure the inforamtion was clearly communicated for one primary purpose, so the clueless had no ground to stand on when they come to me griping because they missed out because they didn't know. Everyone in the troop knows we are clear on communication and to not DARE try and whine because they didn't know.

Still frustrating. Tought to keep teh motivation to teach kids leadership and responsibility when tehy can't even listen, read or mark anything down, even harder when many parents are the same way and drifting through life and saying I was too busy seems to be more and more acceptable.

I'm in the bunch that dis-agrees with committees/volunteers writting thier own rules. Since the scout is only bound to the BSA regs on this one, anything the Committee adds is moot and has no weight. If he receives any funds, I would suggest he keep that in confidence and use it to buy materials, then simply say the materials were donated....they were in a way, someone donated the means to get the materials. No mention of any cash or funds, do the project and get it signed off. Good luck. Admiting money was donated and used to buy materials is only going to start a peeing contest that will drag things out, sap folks energy for more positive things and have a bad effect on this boy's productive work that is being done under the BSA rules.

Our troop is one that is not and has not done anything with OA in a long time. We had a scout make Eagle shortly before his 18th Birthday about 5 years ago, I think he may have been OA in the early 2000's but it was before my time in the troop. One problem is that I as SM (And other adults in the troop) know little to nothing about OA. I got elected in back in the early to mid seventies but never even made the ordeal, I dropped out of scouting shortly after so I never learned anything about OA back then. I have brought up OA to the troop on several occasions but not one scout in the troop has any interest. When OA calls to do elections up at our troop I never have anyone interested in being involved so it ends at that. One of our problems is that we are distand from where meetings (And most activities) are held with OA. Most of our scout parents work in teh city and have to drive 40-50 miles home to get their scout and drive right back down to the city for an OA meeting, then another trip back home. Unless a scout and the parent are super OA enthuisastic it ain't gonna happen for us. Add to that we are pretty active as a troop and we get a good turn out at campouts, meetings and such but I can feel where the limits are. Any more Scout activities for most in our troop is going to be too much and blown off for lack of time. I am fortunate I do have good retention in the troop, the older scouts stay involved and my eagles stay on and tyry and mentor the leadership in the scouts. Some of these guys are active in baseball swimming and wrestling at school so I apreciate their giving back to the unit and continued involvement. I cannot see where they are going to have the time to do OA unless they drop something else. From what little our scouts have seen of OA, they have the impression the things tey saw were somewhat lame and are more inclined to do high school sports. If we were in a suburb of the Metro area, it would likely be a different story, logistics are teh main nails in the coffin in our troop with OA.

Composite Materials was introduced in 2006, according to the fact sheet at scouting.org. (http://www.scouting.org/media/factsheets/02-500.aspx)

Regarding John-in-KC's point about putting Cooking on the Eagle-required list... it looks like Cooking is the 5th-most popular badge ever ("More than 4 million earned!") But there's been a huge dive from 1993 to now - down from 46,000 to 24,000.

And saddest is the fact that Backpacking has seen a similar plunge, from 8,800 in 1993 to 4,900 in 2007.

(This message has been edited by shortridge)

I suspect both Cooking and backpacking may be in decline as both badges have considerable requirements to them. many scouts probably look at them and since they require a lot and are not Eagle required skip them.

I am counselour for Cooking and am starting that badge now, I limited it to 5 scouts so they all have opportunity to plan and cook per the requirements during all of our campouts this year. Backpacking is another story. We are including several backpacking trips this year on our calendar to challenge the boys beyond the car camping and have 3 seperate trips, the scouts can acheive MOST of the badge. We won't be able to offer teh opportunity to complete the abdge however due to the 5 day backpacking trip requirement. I don't know of any leaders who can set aside nearly another week (with all the troop campouts, summer camp etc) and I seriously doubt I have scout in the troop with enough interest and motivation to do the 5 day backpacker. We will provide opportunity to get everything else done and leave it to the scouts to show interest in setting up the 5 day. Backpacking is primarily a badge for older scouts still deeply in the program but not for most scouts, I bet this is why it's participation has plunged.

I know the COR has to be the one to remove a CC but can a troop "vote out" an Advancement chair ? If a parent willing to do the job was willing to "run" for the position and the CC held an election for the position, the troop would have the opportunity to replace the problem volunteer who is currently in the position. Once out of the position, they become just noise with no power at all and could be ignored. At recharter they could be told that your troop is not accepting their application and that you all feel theri needs are probably better served by otehr troops, thanks and good bye. You will loose their son but you may get back some scouts and may prevent losing other scouts and volunteers which is a win for the troop.

By the way, in my story about our CC that had to be booted on another thread, I had mentioned this person was previously booted from the cub pack a few years prior. At the time she was booted from teh pack, she was a committee member but was doing the same types of things you described of your Advancement Coordinator....trying to run the pack, Bully through decisons etc. People were leaving and others threatening to leave when she got voted out. She took her son and left in a huff not to be heard from again (In the PACK that is).

One of my ASM's and I had discussions on these MB topics. We have one MB councelour that keeps wanting to try and put merit badge minin class sessions in during troop meetings which make chaos of teh evening program as others already noted. I at least now schedule some program nights to accomodate this and have this focused on completing partial badges that many scouts have open in stead of starting more.

ASM and I discussed the concept of the scout wanting the badge, getting the book, reaching out etc but I have learned that it will be tough to impossible to change teh parent and scout mindset on this, it is like fighting the tide and our energies can be used to more benefit on countless other things in teh troop. I have had scouts approach me (I counsel a bunch of badges) and a few other counselors on occasion (Pretty rare but it happens). One problem is the counslor having time to do the badge. Even though it may not be the right way, it is more efficient for a counslor to plan and gear up for a WEL RUN badge and offer it to a number of scouts. We do make sure teh badge is done 100%, not glossed over and teh individual scouts must put in theri own work, not sit in a circle and get spoon fed information and a checkoff. I have run (with 2 ASM's assisting) Fire Safety and E Prep as an all day deal with pre owrk and some post work individual by scout. We THroughly cover the material and even add to it. We do it at our fire hall. We add lots of real training movies on requirement related topics, pull out some of the apparatus, they have even had a chance to handle an inch and three quarter and run a ventilation fan. We cover the badge completely, the individual scouts are checked for completing and understanding the work and we add enough related stuff to make the badge fun. LAst time we ran the badge half the troop attended. We cover first aid teh same way, our troop MB Counselour works with one of the Paramedics on the department, the scouts end up with a complete First aid education and we make it a fun experience.

I have been to MB colleges and seen material glossed over and some pretty thin MB classes at summer camp, yes this is where most of our scouts get most of their badges. I see a few individual effort badges a year, most are something like pet care or Music to be honest.

I'd love to go back to individual motivation but without MB classes, Summer camp and MB colleges our advancement would fall off the map. Despite our efforts at boy led and individual responsibility, it is still hard to break teh mind set of scouts and parents about this. They still beleive that BSA is an outdoor entertainment club and it is taking half a year to ingrain teh idea campouts are their to plan and set up and we only drive them there and make sure tehy are safe. We have been asking for new fund raisinf ideas and all I get aredeer in the headlight stares. We remind the scouts over and over to check teh sign up and get on the campouts, yet year after year even with proding from patrol leaders, they forget and the parents call me (the SM) 2 days before to see if their kid can make this weekends event. I don't see this mindset as something we are or are not doing, it is the way many kids and adults are these days. To expect scouts to earn rank without the colleges etc with the lack of drive, awareness and self motivation is arecipe for kids dropping by age 14 having stagnated and become bored.

I'd love to see things doen the right way, I have come to beleive it is a battle I can't win.

Time to give back for me. I came to this forum a couple years ago to get the answers to the very same proble.....how to get rid of a CC that was destroying the troop. The folks here gave me the proper path forward and it litterelayy saved our troop that is now reached 55 years of age....much appreciated.

We had teh same deal, teh CC from the farther below reaches of the planet. She had been booted from the local cub pack a few years prior and had been dispatched from at least 2 other local youth organizations as well. She had been to training but that was of no help. We too had a large number of familys ready to bolt for another troop, many scouts asking if she was attending an activity before they would sign up etc. Bottom line this person has some severe issues. I was a new scoutmaster trying to learn the ropes and turn a troop around in nearly every aspect you could imagine. Everyone was too busy to volunteer to be CC, even a monkey with a pulse would have been elected over her but no one stepped up so we ended up with her. Within weeks of her becoming CC I was deluged with complaints from parents, scouts and troop volunteers. Over time I tried to bury her with useless tasks in an effort to keep her busy enough so she could stay out of trouble but that was not effective. Over time we put up with her caustic ways and she was becoming ignored by committee and scouts but she still made the troop very un pleasant. I was under the impression from the previous SM that all we had to do was vote her out but I learned otherwise when she refused to go and came here for advice to save the troop before it was lost.

Some of the things that helped our cause it looks like you already have or are doing. I had to put a lot of time doing damage control and over the top relationship building to hold the troop together for the months she did her deeds that hacked everyone off. I had to wait until we had an incident that pushed it way beyond the line in order to start the process. In the mean time, she, by her actions made extreme enemies out of every single parent, scout and adult volunteer so when the rubber hit the road not only did she have no supporters, she had 100% of the troop soundly against her and very outspoken. I also needed time to find her replacement.

The day came of "the Incedent" that I was waiting for. We took a vote and she wouldn't leave, and I found here the COR is the only one who can boot her. Every single adult volunteer and many parents wrote strong letter to the COR on why she had to go. We had a meeting with the CC, the COR the UC and DE. CC dug herself a hole in teh meeting and the COR read the letters. COR was horrified and UC and DE agreed with COR she needed IMMEDIATE removal. She was. UC informed Councel they strongly recomend she has no involvement with any unit in Council and further noted she really should not be involved in youth organizations.

To add to this, she tried to arrange committee meetings afterwards aimed at continued business, we tried to be diplomatic in not announcing her firing and she tried to take advantage of that. COR had to make an offical announcement to clear the confussion, she claimed she was embarrased but she brought it on herself....oh well.

I concur with those here, you need to have the COR boot this person and need to inform your DE and UC. Get as close to 100% parent and volunteer support, in writing if possible and have some strong co supporters so you don't have to take all teh heat. The CC I had to deal with was an exteremely insulting, nasty and vindictive person, my Treasurere, one ASM and my Advancement chair stood up with me in a show of solidarity and helped absorb some of the heat, I did not have to take it all and could lead teh charge, The balance of the troop saw we were solid together and were in ti to win for the troop, we got un wavering support and dispatched the CC in a one month process from the day teh straw broke th camels back.

Good Luck. Volunteering is hard enough, and when you have to deal with total idiots it is probably one more reason many people won't bother volunteering any more.