highcountry

I could easily go without TV (SAttelite) but my wife wants to keep it so I continue to waste my $57 a month for direct tv. The digital cable radio is nice but there is so littel I watch especially since the big networks began to buy the independant cable channels adn dumb down the viewing, kill the variety and put reeality garbage everywhere. I am a motorsports buff and even Speed TV has been filled with garbage programing so I don''t watch it any more. I truely am too busy to sit and watch TV, I would rather listen to football or hockey on the radio while I am doing other things.

Truth be known, my kids hardly watch sattelite either although playstation and X box can be another story. What we do though is watch VHS and DVD of movies we liked well enough to purchase but only a couple hours a week at best.

Before I took over it was once a year. What happened was some patrols depleted down to not being worth being called patrols, poor youth leaders stayed in spots and did the troop no good for a whole year and other issues.

We do a major election in MArch just after we get in all teh new Webelos cross overs. At teh end of Sept-Early October we re-acess things at a Greenbar as to what leaders are effective, which were not, who is showing promise, who wants to stay on in positions they are doing well at and or improving, should we have 3 patrols or 4 etc and align things for the balance of our year. This tries to keep the experience, motivated and effective people in where tehy are doing well and learning and gets rid of the dead wood replacing it with promising up and comers. It also keeps the patrols right sized and as friendships and skills change, it makes for more effective teams (patrols)

Here is an idea of the patrols and 27 semi active to active scouts.

Patrol #1.....Patrol leader (My oldest son) 14....trying to lead and be responsible, doing an OK job and improving with age and experience. makes almost evcery activity, community service and fund raiser. makes calls to his patrol and trys to run them as a team to the best of his current ability. Took One day all day youth leadership training at Council last march. He is in this position strictly on account of the other scouts recognizing his take charge attitude and willingness to build a team and organize, not my pressure at all. he is also a Den Chief last year and a troop guide this year. He will take all week youth leadership training next summer. He has been in scouts since Wolf and made his Arrow of light. Currently Star and is close to getting Life.

APL....My youngest son (13) he does not have the maturity yet to lead at all, more interested in playing....no training to date. he will take all day leadership council training in March and will go to all week leadership training in Tahosa next Summer. A Den Chief last year and a troop guide this year. he also was in Scxouts since Tiger and made Arrow of light. He is currently first class and is close to getting Star.

Balance of this Patrol is made up of my sons buddies they recruited. All but one were recruited at ages 12-14 when they started. We are at teh point we are looking to break teh patrol up now that all these recruits are established and stayin in the program. One is extremely organized and take charge gut, 9 months into the program and is already almost First class. He was elected SPL at teh recent camporree due to his reliability and leadership. he is probably going to become quartermaster soon. next is a 13 year old, son of Merit badge coordinator. Very smart but not over goofingaround enought to be a dependable leader....maybe better in a few more months. He is Almost to Star. Nest is a good frind of all teh kids in teh Patrol, he went through cubs to Arrow of light but dropped scouts when the earlier troop functions 4 years ago were so unorganized. My son recruiteed him back a bit over 2 years ago. Friendly nice kid at 14 burt he never stops screwing around. has to be asked to help out repeatedly, very un focused. Just amde 1st class. The remaining 4 in this patrol all recruited in by us over the past year, all between 13 and 14 and were never scouts previously. They are only semi intersrted in teh program but enjoy meetings and activities. These scouts will do well if they stay in to 16 and make Star. None show leadership qualities but are there to learn some things and enjoy the activities. They are screwing around less and helping out more as they get older.

Patrol #2....patrol Leader got the job as an effort to try to get him to step up. he is absolutely useless in leadership and lazy when anything is needed to be done. His term as PL will soon be done. He ahd all day youth leadership training last march but it had no effect. His Asst is Tenderfoot, 13 home schooled an Arrow of light webelos with a desire to lead instead of goofing around. He is nearly to 1st class and makes activities off and on base don other time commitments. Balannce of patrol are 4 webelos cross overs. All are at least to Tenderfoot and most are nearly to fist class at thsi stage. 3 of teh 4 are very responsible and active and show signs of staying long term and advancing. 4th has some issues and acts 5 years old much of the time and is having diiffiiculty getting along. We are hoping he starts to mature this coming year.

Patrol 3 is led by a nice young man, about 15. Good friends with the former SM''s 2 sons, he is intent on staying and making Eagle. He makes most activities. He has had no Youth Leadership training yet but we plan on getting him into some this coming year. With age and experience he is showing more leadership qaulities and independece on realizing things need doing and taking action or delegating. His APL is a child from a problem home....16 but acts like a 12 yearold, goof off all the time, has frequent suspentions from school. Father is a useless peice of work, mom is in Jail, Grandmother is trying to save him from being a Juvenile Delinquent and troop is basically his family truning to raise him. He has nearly been removed from the troop on several occasions for very serious issues but has been improvinfg somewhat the past 9 months. We tried to give him a booost up with responsibility but it has been worthless and he will likely loose the APL spot soon. He is 1st class and if luck might make Star if he stays in teh troop. No previious history with cubs and has had no Leadership training. The balance of the Patrol (6) has 4 of teh inactives on it that are either already gone or will be officially gone at recharter. The remaining 2, one has some minor learning disabilities, he will help out if asked and is slowly advancing but he is there mostly to go on occasional activites and have fun. No leadership skiils and comes to summer camp and rare other fund raisers or activities. The final one here is a new recruit from a somewhat troubled home, he was a cub but fropped before Arrow of light. was hanging with bad kids until mom got divorced from the useless faterh and is dating a former Eagle Scout. he has outdoor experience and is basicall a good kid, he seems enthusiastic and may someday demonstrate leadership qualities, he joined 5 months ago and is already tenderfoot with 4 merit badge. He was active but summer conflicts and mom''s work schedulte made him absent most of the summer.

Patrol #4

PL is 16, numerous leadership trainings including week long at Tahosa, demonstrates leadership, will likely move to ASPL very soon. Star scout almost Life, intends to go to Eagle. Does not make a lot of activities etc due to other time commitments, makes 3/4 of troop meetings.

APL....15 year old, no training yet, 1st class, almost Star, makes half of the activities and would do more but school and sports commitments eat into his time. Will likely move to PL. Concientuous and showing leadership and tema building skills.

Balance of patrol (4) one is inactive and for all purposes gone, one is his younger brother (13) who is not out of teh goofing around stage in life but he is showing signs of improvement, 1 is the severly handicapped individual, the 4th is 17 and almost to eagle, is pretty responsible but due to school and otehr time commitments is going to be troop instructor.

Youth leaders.....

SPL....Star Scout 16... very responsible, makes half of troop meetings and 1/3rd of activities, school and other commitments are heavy for this yout, he is doing a good job, has had youth leadership training and has improved as time has gone on since he took over in February.

ASPL.....Currently moving to JASM...16....just made Eagle, has been trained, is repsonsible and shows leadership. School commitments keep him to 50% meeting attendance and 1/3 activity participation.

JASM....New rercuit last month, 16 Eagle sounds responsible, moved to our area in August.

Just answering questions as I get time.....Makeup of unit and recent history.....

5 years ago troop was down to 7 scouts...4 active. 2 scoutmasters ago the SM was in the position 7 years, did a great job I understand. Last SM before me did it 3 years, the parents and adults burned him out, I took over a year ago (early Oct 06)....no one else would step up to do the job. I did so and decided to try and do a good job, not just fill the position. Previous built the troop up from 7 scouts when he took over to between 20 and 30 with about 2/3rd being active.

I took over a year ago with 23 on the roster. We added 15 scouts in the year that has gone by since.....1 was recruited by another parent, 7 were recruited by me and my 2 boys personally, we got 7 webelos crossover from the local packs to make it 38 scouts.

On the scout side per the question of inactives, ages etc.....

Of 38 we have 11 inactive, 27 active (mostly active to extremely active)

Of the 11......

2 of these made Eagle and turned 18. One of those went away to college, the other while no longer a Scout is staying on as an ASM even though he moved 35 miles away this year.

1 is the son of the CC from hell and she pulled him after she was fired by COR

3 Were Webelos cross overs who made maybe one meeting. They got busy over the summer and this fall enrolled in karate or school sports and are no longer interested in scouts. They crossed over thier registration but other tahn coming to one meeting (One of the 3 never even did that) they have moved on to other things.

1 was a 13 year old we recruited who decided he did not care for scouts and dropped out.

1 Was a 17 yr old Eagle scout who intended to stay on to finish a palm or two and work as a JASM. He re-uppped membership but we have never seen him in at least a year. He has sincec turned 18 and is gone away to college.

1 is an older (16 or 17) scout who made life but is no longer interested in the program. He re-joined as his parents are pushing him to make Eagle. he has a bad attitude, is unfriendly and does not do his job (Scribe). He rarely makes meetings and is now really busy with high school and took a summer job. We are going to take the scribe job and provide it to someone who will do it and I expect he may not renew or finish his eagle.

The last 2 are teh sons of the previous SM. One is about 14 and is a bit of a smart allec.....lots of complaints about his hanging in his clique and I''m better than you attitude. He went to another area school as they ahve a better sports program. His only point in joining was because his dad was SM. I see no real leadership skills or interest in the program unless some activity perfectky suits/intersts him. I doubt he will re-up at recharter and this is not loss to the troop frankly.

The other son is well into High School, very busy with activitiers and studies there. Highly intelligent and is a life scout but is no longer interested in the program. Was only there to Life as his dad was SM. He acts pretty goofy and never demontrated any interest in leadership. Only shows if we offer something high adventure that is of interest to him. His parents have about given up on him making Eagle and I am not going to taylor programs to this scout who only wants to come to things of interest to him, yet give nothing back to the troop in teh way of responsibility and leadership. This oen will probably be lost at next re-charter too.

The camporree last weekend was lower than normal praticiaption due to numerous schedule conflicts for the boys. We had 22 at summer camp and came away with 71 blue cars and at least a third advanced in Rank.

I really appreciate this thread, I bet it will proovide some really beneficial information to many, not just me. I will try to start answering some of this and maybe providing more info in bits as I can.

Last council youth leader training in march....2 patrol leaders attended. 3rd patrol leaxder is 16 and already has had quite a bit of council training ove the years. 4th patrol leader has had no training. All 4 APL''s have had no training. Of the 4 APL''s 1 is 15 and very responsible, 2 of the remailing APL''s are starting to show some maturity Age 13). Last APL is 16 and comes from a very troubled family.....scout troop is basicall his family and trying to raise him. No responsibiilyt at all we are rying to get him to stop his nasty and aggressive behavior. He has been better teh past 7 months so we tried to reward him with the APL position to see if he would improve further. To date no more positive changes from this youth.

Of the PL''s, one who had training in MArch is useless.....has no leadership skills at all, very lazy, will not help out unless asked repeatedly, no self motivation or awareness. He got the position in the spring to try to inspire him to move to the next level but it is not working. He will probably get replaced by the boys this month when we adjust leaders and patrols. Patrol leader who is 16 is very responsible but shows up about half the time, good leadership skills otherwise. Probably moving up to ASPL this fall with re-adjustment. His APL will step ut to PL to replace him, this is the 15 year old with no training but at least shows leadership skills as a starting point. SPL is 16, star and has had youth leadership training. Very responsible ut is extremely busy with high scool related time demands so he amkes a little over half the meetings. He has only gotten better since spring when he was elected and hes started out pretty good.

I am once again encouraging youth leaders to attend youth leader training next march and Leadership camp next summer at Tahosa.

last time Council level youth training was offered that I am aware of was march.

Den Chiefs.....We had 6 last year, 4 were active. Non trained. We cover 2 local packs. A new Adult ASM recruited a year ago took this under his wing. Our troop did very little in the past to support local packs and this is the first serious attempt we had at a Den Chief program since anyone can remember. Local packs were suffering terribly and I think we helped support thier programs and we not only got a good number of new webelos cross over but we had 100% retention. The 4 active Den Chiefs moved to Troop Guides since tehy built a relationship with the new scouts, 2 semi active stayed for one more year of Den chief plus 2 new recruits for that program.

SPECIAL NEEDS

We have one in a wheelchair with seriosu disabilites. We have arranged for special requirements on some merit abdges etc. parents are thrilled to have him there and he is thrilled to be part of the activities with the other scouts. Other scout treat him well and with respect, do not leave him out. He is severly handicapped and advancements etc are really not the reason he is there.

All merit badges are earned at Summer camp, troop sponsered merit badge programs and occasionally merit badge colleges offered in the area. Where else wuld they earn them besides these sources ?

OTHER YOUTH LEADERS

JASM.....ASPL just made Eagle, is staying on as a JASM. Youth trained. pretty reposnible but we only see him once a month due to high school time commitments.

JASM #2....new recruit coming this month, troop transfer from another suburb. Eagle Scout looking for palms and a good troop. Sounds very concientous on the phone. One meeting per month commitment again due to time crush from High School.

Troop Intructor....17 year old former ASPL and PL, about 6 months from Eagle. Likes working with younger kids, schoool time crunch will not allow SPL and the current one is pretty good and improving. We never had an Instructor before and troop meetings 2 years ago had little to no planned afgenda or advancement activity so this should be a big improvement over me having to plan and implement it all the time.

Quartemaster....thias had always been an adult position but I am in the process of transferring it to a responsible and ambitious scout

Scribe....We have a 17 yr old who si unmotivated adn hardly makes any meetings. bad attitude and very unfriendly. In it as Mom wants him to make Eagle (He is Life now) I think this is going to be re-assigned as I doubt we will see this scout much any more and he cannot be relied upon.

Historian....This was handled by the CC from Hell''s son but word is they yanked him from teh troop after she was fired by COR. We have to re assign this position. Old CC has not told us anything firm but we are hearing from local sources in the community she is taking her son to a sea scout troop down on the front range.

reading John in KC''s comments sort of fit what happens with our troop on campouts. We get about a dozen to 15 on most campouts. (We have 38 in the troop, with 27 active and 4 patrols of about 7 scouts each)

Last weekend we went to Camporree and origianlly had 12 scouts signed up, 6 dropped but 3 new names were added for a final show of 9 scouts. The numbers of scouts by patrol changed entirely from where we started to what ended up showing up. Had we planned to cook as patrols origianlly we would have been way off the mark when we ended up going to the event. (Not enough food for the large patrol, way too much for the patrol that ended up with only one scout showing.)

The boys worked in shifts as one patrol sort of and they produced the meal for the most part...adult help was required as we were cooking in 50+ mph sustained winds in a dusty field).

As I noted earlier, the boys continue to see life as adults doing things for them as reinforced by parents and somehat by previous troop methods. I am trying to improve decision making and responsibility, independence and skills and one way is through meals. I am focusing on the proper planning of a menu, portions, nutrition and quantites, proper cooking methods and coordinating the production of a meal. If I do so by one patrol making a portion of the meal, patrol b making the second course etc I am achieving far more than what I inherited. I can ahve the ASM shop for the trip and if some boys drop and others add in, I am not going to stress about the patrol cooking method. It is far better than adults simply running everyting. It is a far advanced state to teh way things happened when I took over. part of the problem was that the CC from down below that we got rid of came on campouts and would not let the boys cook, or plan the meal. She would just go and shop and start cooking and the boys would run off and play. This prolonged my ability to even get teh boys started in being any part of the meal process.

Patrol ccoking is way to far off for me to even dream about implemetning and is way too much work to be practicle for us, it is just not going to happen. I cannot get teh scouts to even do patrol meetings other than ones included within troop meetings as the previous SM had the same problems. parents and scouts alike feel that returning email and voicemail is optional and i ghet maybe 5% repsonse to either. The excuse of we are too busy seems to be adequate response and they carry on with their lives. there is no way I am ever going to get tehm to shop as patrols, to make that as a goal is a waste of my time, I may as well ask each patrol to provide me a cure for cancer.

Beavah, your analogy is spot on, right on target. Times change, things change, one needs to adapt (Within reason) and one can still deliver a good and quality program with adjsutment to the recipe. To blindly stick to an age old recipe unwilling to bend may likely yield less results than making smart and appropriate adjsutments.

Does this mean I think it''s OK to cut short merit badge requirements, or check off advancements if the scout can barely demostrate any ability on that requirement....absolutely not. Am I going to allow someone who is say scribe to advance if he only has the patch on his shirt and has done nothing for 6 months....No. But ifa scout shows up with a class A shirt and necker, clean, buttoend and tucked in and has nice green cargo pants and decent shoes I am fine with it. A leather belt vs the scout issue one, fine by me, black socks....fine. If the scout is getting something from the program, growing as an individual and contributing and participating in the program then I feel things are headed in the proper direction. As LisaBob mentioned earleir about being sometimes iritated about the Uniform Police, they don''t irritate me, I am somewhat ammused by them. It is plain to me when someone cannot stop ranting about what others do when they know they have no ability to get others to change their troop that they themselves are the ones all iritated. I don''t let it bother me,I have bigger fish to fry.

As per the original set of questions, when I took over as SM a year ago our troop adhered to almost none of the methods, although we have always stuck to the merit abdge and advancement requirements, we always did the scout oath and law and scoutmaster conferences and BOR''s were very meaningful. Patrols were a list of names and little if anything was reqired or done by them, troop meetings were a flag ceremony, long announcements and then a free for all of tag, foosball, pool, table tennis and kids leaving early. About 15% of the scouts were a class A shirt and those were ussually unbottened and un tucked, many dirty. No one sat in patrols, the scouts set up chairs for parents and scouts and they sat with their buddies.

I have brought things a long way in the past year and have a long way to go, thses things won''t change overnight. Getting 100% to wear shirts buttoned and tucked has taken a year. No more jeans alone is going to be a loft goal, but getting the patrols to act like patrols, take leadership and responsibilty under their wings and not expect to be spoon fed and enteretained is my major goal over the next 6 months. 100% uniform compliance is below that priority and when I consider how some are so hung up on the issue I could even care less. Getting them all in some form of sharp green pants would be great adn uniform inspection and patrol points are helping us get there, but I could care less if we all make it to the overpriced BSA ones just because someone who is not part of my troop can''t get beyond reminding everyone what the BSA....marcus of queensbury rules say.

Like I said, I have changed a load in this troop and many times I got flack about it but I also got support overall and we have made a million improvements in a short time. I have many more improvements to make like responsibility and reliability and independence etc that are WAY more important than what pants to wear.

Thanks for the advice/ideas but unless we have scouts working towards road to first class cooking requirements we are probably going to stick with the patrol/troop cooking method. As I noted in the early seventies my troop simply cooked as a troop, at least we have each patrol planning and cooking one part of the meal and contributing to the entire meal. I am having enough of a hard time getting any input at all from the boys on any menu ideas let alone nutrition and working up a grocery list, but everything does take time and this is eveolving. Yes these are typical kids, spoon fed with parents taking the bumps out of the road for them, they have already learned from parents that reading agendas, staying for meetings and returning voicemail and email is an optional if you feel like it thing. That is all going to change but it will take time. I would go the PB & J route with this campout but it is a council camporree and district folks we know are coming by for dinner Saturday night so I am not going to show at this event with nothing but peanut butter.

As I noted somewhere around here, the last SM (he was a good guy, he rebuilt the troop from almost dead) let them have menus of canned soup, boxed macaroni and cheese and the like. I have been showing them that cooking really good stuff is enjoyable and not hard and so much better tasting and better for them. They have done the road to first class cooking requirements but for many it has been so long that they have not been pratically using it. I am also fighting the mentality of scouting being a twice a month troop meeting thing and sign up for activities if and when you feel like it deal. To give you an idea, the troop never has patrol meetings, we have tried and can''t get anyone to do it, everyone is always too busy and getting the parents to realize it''s importance and get on the scouts to keep up the obligations is a lost effort. We are now having patrol meetings included in troop meetings every other month so it gets done. As I noted, me and the SPL are going to be having some read the riot act moments at the upcoming Green Bar on responsibilty etc.

To me, having 4 completely different menus and grocery lists is a collosal waste of time, and trying to get 4 sets of boys out to get groceries is not going to happen. The other problem si that we have scouts sign up and drop out, others get in on campouts at the last minute. This makes it useless for a patrol where one scout shows up to run his own meal program and others who have late add ons being short food. My goal is that they all plan the meal, divide who cooks what dishes, consider nutrition and generate the grocery list, when campot comes, the food is there and they each cook their one dish by patrol per meal. This is a plan I can eventually make work for us and is more efficient and the boys are still learning the values. If I can get to this point it will be so much further ahead that where things were and where they are now, I will be satisfied and have broken the spoon fed mentality. The PB&J thing that is probably going to happen next month I am looking forward to, it should wake them up.

As I mentioned here or elsewhere, the previous scoutmaster arranged maybe one troop campout a year. All other campouts were either summer camp or district events. Camping 10 or 11 times a year is a big change so we are adapting. I think we will always use the troop/patrol cooking plan like I described but I do realize teh boys need to be more engaged and pounding my fist is a waster of my energy. We have a 2 night "Hallowween campout coming end of October and between then and now is our next Greenbar where I am going to make a big deal about reliability, communication, responsibility and doing one''s job as a patrol leader etc....job descriptions and what leadership means. Then I am going to ask the SPL one time and one time only to set up the activities and menu for that event. I expect him to know to do it without my asking but I will be fair and drop one little hint. If nothing occurs then I plan to show up with peanut butter, jam, milk and plain white bread for the entire campout while the adult leaders have steak. That should get the message across. My plan for the November camp and hike event is to not even remind the SPL to see he does this entirely onhis own. If that doesn''t work the scouts are going to get extremely tired of peanut butter and wonder bread in coming months and our steaks are going to look especially tasty. If they haven''t learned by Klondike in late january they can watch us enjoy lobsters.

It''s not a convenience thing. It''s the realization of the reality that putting the priority of insisting on standing up to a standard that pretty much no one wants in my troop anyway over an otherwise great program and all the benefits the scouts are receiving.

It''s not simply getting along and be nice, it''s that you sometimes make decisions and comprimise to maintain an overall positive and functional relationship with other adult leaders and committee. Plain and simple,as I discussed in another thread last Spring, we had a CC who was destroying the troop, I had the 100% adament support of all adult leaders and Committee and we managed to get rid of that CC. I have been doing many positive things witht he troop and one of the areas I frequently hear for the positives is that I bring people together, build consensus and motivate to provide a program that is very gooood and it geenrates enthusiasm and participation. Thats what I get from being nice and getting along.

The alternative.....I could be a by the book rules butt head all the time. The result.....the troop would probably go from 36 to maybe a dozen, I would loose parent help and adult volunteers and committee. I would build a reputation of being out of touch and I would be routinely ignored as being a pain in the rear insisting on issues others universally regard as trivial and un important. I would not only loose numbers but I would loose credibility, communication and the ability to be an effective leader. When I need to be "Not Nice" or have to somewhat ignore getting along for making a decision and strongly persuading committee to do something it will be on an important issue, not something so trivial about 100% by the book Uniform rules. As I noted, in my troop we had almost no one even weraing a class A shirt to troop meetings, we have gone to most wearing a class A shirt, neckerchief and decent pants of some type, combed hair, shirts buttoned and tucked and more improvements all the time. The boys actually feel like part of something now, that they are not just the local youth camping group but they are scouts adn are identifying with their troop, thier patrol and developing a higher level of respect than we had before. With the uniform inspections and patrol points it will probably go even higher and be a scout motivated deal....great ! But it is going to take time. There is no way I am going to start inssiting we need to be 100% by the boook on uniforms. For one thing I have no real power to enforce it, I can be a jerk and mandate it but many will choose to do what they want anyway. If I become a pain in the rear about it many will start to leave and I will become ignored and avoided. I won''t get 100% perfect uniform compliance and I will undermine my ability to grow the troop andprovide an otherwise quality program.....what kind of victory would that be ?

The scouts are getting a good boy led program in our troop, tehy fund raise to 100% self suffiency, I have a productive and cohesive group of adults, teh boys earn their advancements and get plent of outdoor experience, community service and realtions with other community organizations and many other positives. If the boys show up in Jeans...oh well, sharp green or Khaki pants would look better but we may get to that point. If the boys eventuall show up mostly with sharp appropriate pants but they are not the overpriced BSA issue one, I really don''t care and no one else does in our troop and I am not going to be able to do anything to get them to care. I fI try to insist that we are not by the book I will get ignored and laughed off. A big price to payfor insisting on a battle I can''t enforce or win. So I will continue to improve the troop in every way we can as an adult and youth team and if the boys wear Jeans or Walmart green cargo pants, I could care less. It is the happy scouts who are enjoying and getting benefir from the program I am concerned about, not adherence to strict guideleines on some piece or paper that no one can enforce anyway. I don''t see district or council coming in and lecturing us or having me fired because we are not 100% uniform compliant, and if they did lecture us, almost everyone would say...oh that''s nice, thanks for stopping by and then would do nothing any different. I guess I could be on a wanted poster somewhere for the Uniform Police, but since I can''t be arrested for the infraction, what does it matter. A strong unit is more important than trivializing over un importanrt details.

In the early seventies my troop (Large, about 75 scouts with 50 very active) cooked and ate as a troop. Scouts who needed road to first class cooking requirements were in charge of things needed to obtain those requirements.

When I took overe as Sm of our troop a year ago it was troop cook and eat as a troop. I see nothing wrong with it. Again, as our troop instructor sees a couple younger scouts in need of road to first class cooking requirements we see to it they fulfil the cooking, planning, nutrition, cleanup requirements and they do them before tehy are signed off. They may end up cooking for 15 instead of 5 but the requirements are still met.

having 4 different sets of menu plans and grocerey lists and trying to get the patrols out to shop plust all of the independent reciepts to the treasurer is not going to happen. maybe the BSA guidelines say this is what to be done, but it isn''t going to happen in the real world for us. On a normal campout where we have no scouters working road to first class cooking requiremens, each patrol cooks one element of the meal (One does the salad, one does the stew, one the dessert adn the other covers drinks and bread). They all cook as a patrol but contribute to teh overall meal. They are all buddies in teh troop and sit down and eat together.

The boys decide the menu plan and plan the shopping list. The ASM in charge of the event does the shopping and sends teh bill to the treasurer for reimbursement. ASSM packs the coolers and we go.

Right now we are preparing for a campout at the end of the month, about 15 scouts and 5 qadults going. I have requested at 2 troop meetings as has the SPL to get together and plan the menu and grocery list, no reponse. I have sent out emails and not one response. If I had this as a true patrol method situation with each patrol planning and shopping independently this problem would be multiplied 4 fold. I have no new scouters on this event requiring road to first class cooking requirements. The goal is to get a good meal plan that everyone agrees on, shop and have the patrols take responsibility for preparing their part of each of the meals. Accomplishing this is provving hard enough. It has resulted in a number of phone calls and voicemails and those who repond are making the decision for all teh rest.....the lesson....if they don''t respond and they don''t like the menu than tough. next time stick around at teh troop meeting to plan or at least respond to email. There is no way on god''s green earth I am going to deal with this having 4 seperate patrols plan 4 totally independant menus and grocery lists and expect tehm to shop independantly. If I expected that and tried to make it happen teh troop would drop to almost no activity and eventually die. A man''s got to know his limitations and sticking to strict BSA patrrol meal guidelines is not going to happen in our world. My realistic choice is to demand we stick to strict patrol methods on this and end up with cancelled activities and eventual shrinking of the troop or adapt with a smart workable plan, grow the troop and increase teh number and general quality of activites. It works for us.

In the past our troop kept putting on suburban type activities on teh calendar, stuff like indoor climbing walls, fencing, bowling etc. Sometimes tehy wanted caving or white water day trips with guided tours, but other than Klondike, camporree or summer camp, no camping and only occasional hiking. Many of these city type activities got cancelled due to too few scouts signing up or not enough adult drivers or teh cost per attenddee was too high. The shame of it is, we are in the rocky mountaisn and have all kinds of hiking and camping opportunities where we live. With an influx of new scouts we have converted to outdoor experience and have taken teh stance that suburban or city type activities can be arranges as family-non scout evvents. No scout money can be used and no scouters will organize it or manage it. We had too many activities that took the time of adult volunteers to get organized, be cancelled and the hours of organization work was all for nothing.

We mostly car camp but that is better than bowling or other such nonsense, but we have taken a couple ambsitious hikes and we will start working backpacking in next spring.

By chance, the Council just called to inquire how summer camp went. In our converstation I asked tehm about their local tour permit policy and cited examples. The area council told me not to bother with them for one or 2 nite campouts when no water activities or high adventure is involved when we are close to home (within 25 miles appx). We just did a 10 mile hike within 15 miles of our home town and in district, single day event and I was told to not bother woith a permit.

Our troop has shifted it''s activity policies due to a number of reasons, one being the streamlining of preperation. We live in a rural area and have shifted to outdoor activites since they are close to home, eliminate the tour permits, it also makes it easier to recruit parents to drive for just 2 reasons. We have adult leaders trained in YP, Climb on, trek, afloat and swim safe, several ASM''s are fire dept first responders or EMT''s, we have accurate and up to date drivers info, license, seat belt numbers, insurance etc so we are being safe and covering all of our bases.

I implemented a simple fix on driver and car data that was not in place previously, all parents who are ever involved in driving are on a spreadsheet our secrataries maintain that lists teh cars, seat belts, driver license, insurance and coverage limits etc. In the past it became a cluster every time a trip occurred as no database of basic info was maintained, a flurry of phone calls was created to get this data for every tour permit. Same thing on med forms, having to get copies of those scouts on that event. Now we just require all SM''s and ASM''s to keep a copy of everyone''s class 3 on them in thei travel scout case at all time adn eliminated teh med form keystone cops episode.

The biggest problem with the tour permits is the changes and having to refax tehm in and ask to get it refaxed back plus busy fax lines. Not a campout goes by that some parent/driver can''t amke it and we have to beg for a fill in and match up scouts to seat belts, then after that we have to amend the TP and refax and get a refax back. Since council does not care about them for close in camps of short duration and no risks, this hassle has been eliminated. We concentrate on covering the car/driver change and make sure teh campot is safe beneficial and fun.

Although I wouldn''t go as far to have the troop do Sopranos or metalica or Weird Al songs, our scouts have not been motivated to be involved in many sing alongs as the majority of the songs they hear at large camps and the like are extremely lame, out of date and well below their age group. In the past our troop had no motivation towards songs, yells or skits. Since I built the troop up, we have some that are inclined toward these things, competition with out of state troops and setting some traditions have made these things of interest to others. They are taking a self directed interest in this and it is becoming a project theme to base some patrol meetings around. What I have shown them is that we don''t have to be stuck with lame stuff. I have passed along some examples of the kind of stuff we used to sing in the seventies that I found on Mac Scouter (The Gross songs are a particular favorite) My son plays Guitar so that adds a dimention. They created a troop song at summer camp this year (OK, not great, it was made up in one evening) but they are looking to classic songs to base some well planned troop and patrol songs. While they don''t want to have anything to do with the silly lame stuff, they have found something fun that lies somewhere before Wier Al and Metallica and the adult leaders enjoy participating wqhen the stuff is better and motivates participation. To try and push cub scout level stuff that dates from traditions from the flapper era is going to cause them to continue to dis-like participating.

Before I took over as SM our troop had no contact with the cub packs, no Den Chiefs and no patrol guides. When I took over I had one of our ASM''s so inclined to be a Den Chief coordinator, we now help support 2 area packs. The Most Active Den chiefs become PG''s when the Webelos 2 they mentored cross over. They ahve built a relationship with the new scouts and in most cases their parents are in best position to mentor them and teach them the ropes. They are not necessarily in the NSP. All are at least first class and all are seeded in patrols, not seperate from them. In the past we got very few new Webelos from our lack of connection to the local packs and when Webelos did come into our troop retention was close to zero as there was no one who had bult a relationship with hem, no plan or scouts to help bring them in to welcome them and to help the new scouts and their parents understand the boy scout program vs cubs. It is working well for us.

Our troop instructor keeps tabs on what boys need cooking requirements in road to first class. When we have a couple needing these requirements we shift our meal plan on campouts to support the advancement need. We also have occasional Day Camps in nearby state parks or national forest areas, the middle of the event is of course lunch and this is specifically intended to support the road to first class cooking requirements.

On camp outs where we have say 18 scouts, 3-6 from each of 4 patrols teh other format works best. Each patrol takes pride in planning and preparing their part of the meal as a patrol. As long as there are none or maybe only one or two scouts needing road to first class cooking this works great. We also like to avoid having to have grocery shopping for 4 entirely different shopping trips, grocery bills and reciepts for the treasurer to have to deal with.

I hear the "pick your battles" comment. In the seventies when I was a scout, there was a different prevailing attitude in society that was less leinient, some things were pretty much expected. As kids when we had an issue or wanted to get some wiggle room be it homework deadlines, or attending church or wearing a uniform or be back home by a certain time or whatever, we found adults universally took a pretty hard stand. We knew what teh rules were and that you had to stay in the guideliens or else. If we wanted to losen things a bit we also knew we would have to live with the consequences, it did not matter if the adult involved was our parent, a neighbor, a teacher or the minister or scoutmaster, adults lived by this approach. Today in our "tolerant and understanding" society people who spell out the rules and then expect people to go by those rules are labeled as old fashioned, intolerant too rigid.

Given that scenario if you are teh scoutmaster who tries to diligently uphold uniform standards to the letter you are viewed as out of touch, you get grief from parens, complaining from scouts and if you are too rigid subject yourself to a sort of backlash.....less uniform wering or even scouts leaving the troop. You are teh odd man out as the parent, the teacher, teh minister, the neighbor etc are no longer sticking to their guns but you are.

We are flexible, which is a long ways from when I started as SM a year ago. At that point we had at best, 15% of scouts wearing a uniform shirt, half of those with a neckerchief. Pants, belts, hats and socks were out of the question. We had maybe 25% wearing a class a shirt at COH. Of those weraing a shirt, un buttoneed and un tucked shirts were the norm. The scoutmaster''s sones were among those without uniform at all, some kids had dirty jeans and t shirts with holes, rat''s nest hair and some wore really goofy hats, orange ball caps on backwards, flip flops etc.

We are at teh point now where 75% wear a class A shirt and neckerchief to troop meetings and everyone wears that as a minimum to COH, socks and belts are showing up more and more as well. We have created a points system for patrols and uniform inspection is a major part of the points system, every 4 months we designate a new Honor Patrol for the coming quarter based on points and they get to skip out on KP and other little rewards tehy like. The boys have accepted teh uniform again and the complaints from boys and some parents have ceased, they are ratcheting up uniform wearing on thier own bit by bit.

We generally do not wear class A to and from campouts, these are frequently many hours in teh car and when we arrive they need to be reeady to pitch tents, cook dinner etc so they can be comfortable with class b''s when traveling. With this approach we have nbeen able to turn much around in a short time frame.

Right now we have no one with BSA pants, some of us wear green or olive pants and this small change is gradually dis-placing jeans but it is a slow change. I have no problem if the pants are not the overpriced BSA variety, if they look sharp and of good color and look like they belong I feel it is a step above jeans, so much the better. A forest green set of shap cargo pants from Walmart or an outfitter is better than dirty hole infested jeans and at $20 a pair, a much better deal than the BSA pants at teh prices they ask for those.

A good part of the problem is that dealing with people is now more difficult than it was years ago. The overburden of rules and process and paperwork and liability adds to the frustration. The last scoutmaster resigned and I took over a year ago, he was extremelya ctive and enthusiastic and the adults is what burned him out. Selfish demanding people, dis-agreeable people, kooks with crazy ideas and bad people skills that demanded to have their way, on and on, we have all seen it. His wife was Committee Chair and she did a great job, but when they left they mostly disappeared. The jerks ruined it for them so much thay have a few good memories and lots of bad ones unfortunately.

As many have already read, we had a horrible experience with a terrible Committee Chair whom we managed to have removed about 3 months ago, otherwise we have a good group for the most part. The nasty comments coming from her son though erode some of the good tiems, one or two of her friends who stayed with the troop have to get their digs in when the opportunity presents itself which also dimninished the joy of running and improving the troop. The lack of resposnes to requests and communications is wearing thin on me too. Emails sent out requesting opinion on an idea or issue that require a reply with one sentence gets no responses ata ll out of 35 eamil addresses. We have a major fund raiser going on right now and ther are 2 adults showing up time after time. I get downright angry at teh parents who never show for this as myseld and the treasurer do the prepetatory work so these other adults who are "too busy" can conveiently show up and have fundraising work available for their kids when teh mood suits them.

These are some of the reasons why I suspect people leave after their kids hit Eagle. I am doing my level best to impprove the troop in all aspects and provide a fantastic program while I am SM which I will do for one more year, perhaps 2 if things become a bit more tolerable with regards to the lazy and the selfish and the plain nasty people. When I am done in a year or two though, I will be completely done, I feel I have done my time and have no regrets, I volunteered, so many others never did so I feel no obligation to stay and deal with the idiots.

When I was a scout,m people tried more to work together on a common goal and plan, they communicated, comprimised and worked things out more. Today, adults act worse than kids did back when, it is all about me, me me.....even though it was me that volunteered, folks who never lift a finger wonder why I won''t do things their way, tehy expect me and my supporters to make things conveniently available for them when things suit them and if they sign up for an activity but at the last minute can''t go they can''t be bothered to contact you and tell you to not wait for them to bring their scout. You get the picture.

I ften wonder if this laziness, selfishness and lack of civility is a reason why volunteering, memberships and community involvement is suffereing everywhere, people are fed up with dealing with jerks....

For a years (before I became SM) the boys made pretty lame meal plans. They were mostly balanced buyt lots of convenience stuff, canned soup, hot dogs, bad spagetti and canned stew, mac and cheese etc. The adult leaders bagan to prepare their own meals and it did not take long for the scouts to look and see how good we had it and to become a bit more ambitious about their own meal plans.

We do cooking contests when tehy are part of Camporee or Klondike but ussually only one entry for the troop. Whomever ahs a great recipe to fit the theme goes with it, there are normally a zillion activities at these events and the boys are doing those and not all cooking by patrols, only so much time.

We are currently trying to infuse more troop traditions into our operations and one tradition are some popular recipes, one boy has a great cherry/chocolate dutch oven cobbler that will be a part of most campouts. Other things to follow as recipes stand out that the boys feel should be included.

We genrally let the boys plan meals for trips but we have the frequent problem of not getting response from the boys eitehr by email or particiaption at camp planning meetings. When this occurs, we make some calls and get concensus around a workable menu plan.

We take advantage of opportunities to allow boys to get their meal and cooking requirements for road to fist class advancement needs. The boys have not expressed a desire to cook as patrols which works well as some patrols have 4 or more attend and sometimes other patrols only have one attenddee. More seperate menus means more work on shopping and grocery lists too.

What we have gravitate towards, is each patrol attending prepares a part of the meal....they get to show patrol pride in trying to do a great job and they can focus on preparing just one item per meal. We want to try and have the patrols all cook as the cleaning and amnagement of their chuck boxes is something they earn points for and learn responsibility about. A dinner plan might have patrol #1 Prepare a sald, Patrol 2 prepares Peppers and onions in Marinara, patrol 3 prepares Pasta and Garlic Bread While patrol 4 makes a dutch oven dessert. It works as a nice blend of patrol and troop cooking, each patrol cooked as a patrol contributing to the troop dinner they all sit down to.

Latest interesting follow up.....

I am of strong belief at this point that mental illness as mentioned above may well be an issue.

CC was advised by COR a month ago they were done. This week out of the clear blue CC puts an email out to Committee for a Committee meeting this week with one days notice to boot. nearly all the agenda items were non issues. To add to this, she states she will continue to be CC untill her term expires at the end of summer, ignoring the fact she was toast at teh begining of this month.

Odd for someone removed from CC to think they can set up meetings......odd that when told they were finished weeks ago that they think they can set up meetings......odd to set up meetings with a days notice.

Also she volunteered to take on fund raising chair position, it was a fundraiser where her behavior was the straw that broke the camels back regarding her contact with scouts, outside organizations and other adults. She's been told that the last thing we need is to allow her contact with anyone.

She has brought on the embarrasment now of havint to have the COR put a formal notice out to the entire troop that she was removed as of the begining of July to eliminate the confusion being created. Committee knows she is no longer CC so the meeting she proposed was attended by no one. In the mean time committee is planning to meet and fill the CC position as well as the fund raising chair position.

We are doing OK and moving ahead and need to formally notify district, council and our bank that despite anything she says, she at this ppoint is just another parent in the troop and nothing more.

Many of you out there have anyone nearly this abrasive, bizzare or out of touch in your experience ?

Just to give you an example of how much this person is in denial about her actions, several years ago her dogs escaped and maimed a neighbor's animal in the neighbor's yard. The neighbor caught the dogs in the act and contained them in his garage. The dogs had the blood of the animal they attacked on thier faces and were identified as her dogs, yet she denied her dogs ahd anything to do with the attack, right up to the point the Judge ordered her to pay the medical bills and pay for containments of her precious dogs. It is as if this person is on another planet or something....

After a little un-easy delay this mess was finally taken care of properly, I was extremely worried, but some of the advice you folks provided was definitely a help. I wasn't aware the district guys had no real power to make and enforce a decsison so that helped me understand how they didn't pull the plug on CC in such a balck and white case. t rurns out they were 110% behind the position of myself and the rest of the troop but needed to allow the COR the opportunity to become completely comfortable with the obvious decision that had to be made.

What ended up happening, COR called a number of parents involved in the troop plus ASM's and various committee members. What she told me was that I got great reviews but the stories about the CC horrified her. COR notified CC this week that her term as CC was over. The trouble spot was removed with scaple precision as ther is no faction int he troop supporting CC.....resentment to her manners, methods and personal skills was 100% universal so we can easily put this behind us and move forward. We have about a half dozen new scouts who are now joining who would not join while she was CC.

We are moving ahead like nothing happened although now we are devoting our time and energies to positive things so life is easier. With the fight we had to make, it forged the team together better than ever, and with the negatives removed things are going to be great.

Thanks all for your advice.

Please remember to take a moment to say a prayer for the 9 firefighters lost in Charlotte this week, it's a sad time for the brotherhood.

This sounds familiar. The CC I referred to in the REAL PROBLEM thread has proposed a massive set of troop bi-laws. That person is super into every nit picky rule and regualtion out there and even though BSA provides more than enough rules to choke a good sized elephant, they think we need even more. CC has brough this up to committee numerous times and each time committee vote they feel no need for this, yet CC began to schedule committee meetings with the sole focus to develop a troop bi-law book, and get this...a 76 page st of bi-laws form an area tropp is being used as the framework to go off of. Not only is it so big no one will read it or digest it, it is filled with you must, or they will or this happens or else type language aimed at parents, scouts and adults. If enforced it would definitely motivate people to leave. In the mean time I suggested we do need to create a welcome document for new scouts and their parents to get them up to speed a bit with the program, also some job descriptions for some of the more involved adult volunteers positiosn, but that didn't happen (I ended up writing some of it as we had will iadults not functioning in thier roles as no one told them what the job entailed).

Some worthwhile organization and spelling out a few proceedures and guidelines is fine but adding to the already overburdonsome regs and rules from BSA is not going to encourage more adults and parents, it is probably going to entice many to stay away.

We cancel if there are less than 6 boys signed up for an activity, it is a waste of time for our adult leaders to hold events with such little support. Some times considerable time and effort goes into planning events, arranging a group rate, potential rides etc when only a few sign up. We try to sell events a month or more in advance to the troop where we see very litle interest and they know they best get thier buddies to sign up or the event is off. This helps minimize the wasted effort by ASMs and activities coordinators before something is cancelled for lack of interest.

I have been SM for about a year and when I took over the troop put WAY too much on the activities calander, too much to plan, too much to do and too many places to spread the scouts around, about 75% got cancelled for lack of participation. It was burning people out. I stepped the activity level back when I took over but it was still a little too much. We live in the Colorado Rockies and we have plenty of outdoor experience opportunities right where we are. I let the boys run with the first 6 months of activities calander and true to history they put in about 40% activities down in the City, indoor climbing, fencing and the like, and sure enough only 3 or 4 boys signed up for each and they were cancelled. It was a good example to point to for PLC and the next 6 months they eliminated these side bar/suburban type activities and reduceced the calander to a more managable volume. If I had gone to the end of the earth to hold activities that almost no one supported from lack of sign ups I felt it wouldn't teach them a thing and they would go on filling future calanders with other un-popular stuff. It is the boys decision to plan out the calander but in the end, we adults have to facilitate it and if it creates extra work for no benefit it helps burn out adult volunteers. The JASM's and SPL understand this and are helping lead the boys thoughts and decisions accordingly. It used to be in our troop the boys ahd a loose brain storming session and tossed every idea they could think of out on the table, when it came time to vote, all one enthusiastic scout needed was one or two buddies who would stick thier hand up and some activity that was doomed to fail was on the adults timeframe to try and facilitate. Bike trips are a classic example, we had this activity on the list twice a year and in 5 years we ended up only going once. All teh cancelations were finally recognized by the SPL and the boys consdered this historic pattern when deciding on future calanders.

I think I have an extremely serious problem and have been taking the heat to try and save our troop....we have a great troop but our CC is a mean and boarderline phsychotic person. This person ended up as CC 9 months ago as their was no one to run against. They were warned point blank that they needed to watch their behavior as the boys and other adults knew she has been a huge problem in previous community organizations, still they commenced with the bad behavior, which got worse month after month, bullying, intimatating, telling the boys what to do, doing things that the committee unanomously agreed not to do, making a bad name for the troop in the community, I could go on forever. Bottom line, thier behavor bacame so bad that 2 months ago adults and scouts began to investigate other troops, some new Webelos coming in are holding off till CC is gone, one new Webelos who has made 2 meetings inquires if this person is going on activities and if they are, he will not sign up. I already have this problem with almost all the other scouts, no one will go to a function if CC is. The CC went WAY over the line in a function a month ago, embarrasing the troop that we had to do damage control with the school district. I am SM and finally had to tell them to tone down how they are dealing with others and since I told them something they did not want to hear, they escalated it into a yelling and screaming opportunity at me.

Bottom line, we have 17 adult volunteers with a vote, excepting the CC's own vote for themselves and one conflict averse person who abstained and is avoiding the uglyness, the other 15 have written letters and pleaded with district and COR the stories that have happened and that this person needs to go or teh troop is going to fall apart....very very soon.

Thhe charter org rep is a good christian witht he mistaken beleif that anyone can change and that we need to keep teh CC and lift tehm up and show them the way. I asked why it was so important to ignore the 16 other good adults to protect the one troublemaker and never got a very god answer. District rep and commisioner were there but instead of having the courage to make a decison on a black and white case, they delayed again, hoping to arrange a meeting with all the parents and get their opinion.

I asked CC why they persist in fighting to stay when NOT ONE PERSON wants them around and they slipped off tot he typical, I do it for the love of scouts and to protect my dignity.

I have backed my scouts, parents and volunteers by taking the heat and fighting the fight but I feel district has not backed me up. The troop is close to destruction and at this point I have totally lost any interest in scouting, even when this battle is over no matter if we win or loose I am done. I took the troop from a financial hole to well into the black, recruited 4 new asst scoutmasters, a treasurer, a quartermaster and 2 secretaries, improved teh boy led program increase members from 23 to 36 scouts and improved activites attendance and advancement. I have this one horribly destructive person and COR is so out of touch they think we are going to stick around and rehab the CC, district won't amke the obvious decison. By our estimates, if she stays and I leave the troop will go from 36 to 6 boys and 17 adult volunteers down to 1 or 2.

Am I dreaming or is this an insane situation ? I though district would put an end to the mess, they lost 800 scouts last year alone but now I am begining to see why.

Any recomendations ?