Hal_Crawford

Yeah, but not that uncommon in small troops where the CO is not particularly involved.

If I recall I became CC at the SM's behest. The troop committee and I appointed my replacement and I think the two after that were appointed in similar fashion. All of us should have been appointed by the CO. Of course the IH signed the applications for all of us so he technically did approve the appointment but in most cases he did it without meeting the candidate.

More often than not there is only one volunteer and he or she gets the job.

Hal

That you already have a good relationship with the SM is good news. Hopefully the two of you can work together to help the scouts to make a good troop better.

Hal

OMG. I think you guys are on to something. Apron Strings Eagle (ASE) would be awarded a lot in our area (one mom hired day laborers from in front of Home Depot to do her son's Eagle project).

For Urban, Camping and ASE all merit badges would be on line.

Hal

I am curious. If you don't know that much about how the troop runs, why did your son choose to join it? And how did it come to pass that you were appointed CC so far in advance of your son bridging? Did your son look at more than one troop?

I agree with Eamonn that you do not belong at the PLC meetings. Your very presence could undermine the boy leadership. I say this from experience. When I was CC of our troop the SM asked me to attend the PLCs. The presence of more than one adult really changes the dynamic of the meeting. It creates a slippery slope to an adult lead troop. Ultimately I started sitting on the other side of the room to provide two deep leadership but I tried my darnedest to stay OUT of the meeting.

Chat with your SM. Ask him what sort of support he needs from the committee. Ask how the committee has helped in the past. How has it gotten in the way? In the conversation you will probably gain some insights into he way he delivers the program.

As said before, get a calendar and see what the troop does. Go on a campout. You will be able to observe whether the troop is boy lead or not.

Finally, there will be BORs. As others have said this is a great time to find out what the scouts are thinking.

Please, don't be the new guy who comes in tells the SM everything he is doing wrong. Nothing good comes from a pissing match between the CC and the SM. If necessary, work to effect change but slowly and cooperatively with the SM.

Good luck,

Hal

"Yeah, OP was a troll obviously..."

The OP who started this thread in 2008 was probably a troll and I believe that is who XLPanel is referring to. OTOH, Shermanator505, who revived this thread appears (based on his contributions to other threads) to be an Eagle Scout expressing a legitimate opinion about the BSA membership policies. Perhaps in this case he stumbled upon a hibernating bear and decided to poke it with a stick. Not a smart move in the wild but (IMHO) perfectly acceptable in the Issues and Politics section of this forum.

I am dismayed that on this one subject some are quick to suggest that if one doesn't agree one should find another organization. How un-scoutlike! We usually agree to disagree on other subjects but this one is off limits? I see no reason why the membership policies should be any more taboo than one's favorite flavor of Woodbadge. Could it be because the policies are in fact "indefensible"?

Sherminator, welcome to the campfire. I am glad you are here and I hope others do not chase you away with their bad manners.

YIS,

Hal

"Compare today's high school textbooks with what we had in the 60's...more full color pictures and white space, very little text (too "boring")".

Those text books may not be around much longer. School systems are beginning to use or are considering using digital media instead of expensive (not to mention heavy) text books.

"We already go on camp outs 11 other months each year where the boys use the patrol method."

I think that practicing the patrol method for a week is a very different experience than a 1-2 night camp out. You can make anything work from Friday evening to Sunday morning but if Camp starts on Saturday the weaknesses will become apparent by Tuesday.

On a weekend camp out the duty roster will often play to the strengths of the individual scouts but if there is a week long rotation then the weakest cook will have to step up, the laziest scout will have to carry his weight and the Patrol Leader is going to have to exercise a whole lot more leadership to keep it all together.

Hal

Stosh:

That sounds a lot like Camp Bowman at Goshen Scout Reservation. I am not sure that patrol sites are quite 200' apart but they are at least separate and distinct. Everything else is spot on.

Hal

I just did a quick check of my desk and determined it would be a lot less cluttered if I discarded everything made in China. I doubt my employer would appreciate me discarding the brand new Cisco phone. Fortunately this keyboard is not made in China; is Thailand OK? They just turn their children into sex workers so the keyboard is alright? I have a hat here from Bayshore Scout Reservation. Yep! Made in China. Oh, crud! The monitor I'm looking at is made in China. Curse Dell! So are the Altec Lansing speakers. Altec Lansing? Say it ain't so. Can't easily reach the back of the CPU but I doubt that it is made in the USA. Oh, no! My shoes are from China as well! I'm not going to check the rest of my clothes 'cause at this point I don't want to know.

I know we hope for better from the BSA but the truth is it is hard to avoid Chinese products in our lives. It is hard to place political blame because this is the result of the trade policies of both Democratic and Republican administrations. It's businesses (and organizations like the BSA) that can shave a buck here or there by going with the lowest cost supplier. It's those of us (self included) who would rather spend less than make a patriotic statement at the retail store.

I'm afraid it would be hypocrisy for me to blame Mazucca or the BSA for doing what the rest of us do every day. Pogo said it best, "we have met the enemy and they are us".

Hal

I would assume that the scout was elected PL of a New Scout Patrol where presumably no one could spell Tenderfoot. Maybe the boy thought that sticking around would be taking the quitter's way. (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

Seriously, losing half the new scouts isn't that unusual. My son's W2 den had 11 boys. One chose not to bridge, six joined one troop and my son and three others joined our troop. Of those four, two disappeared in the first weeks and another in the first year. My son was active to his 18th birthday. Others who joined at the same time left or stayed, some (my son included) earning Eagle. The average first year attrition across the group was probably about 50%.

Some years we have done better, others worse. A bad year can be really frustrating. We got a good group this year and we have only lost one so far. Best of all, several have younger brothers so there is some real potential for growth.

My heart goes out to the family, the loss of a child is grief beyond comprehension. I also feel for the other scouts and the scouters in the crew. Assuming that they stay on the trail, I can't imagine that they will get much joy out of the remainder of their trek. Losing a scout like that is every scouters worst nightmare.

National Capital Area Council offers a course called Back Country Outdoor Leaders' Skills that is sort of a graduate version of the SM/Venture Leader training. It is one day in a class room and an overnight. I don't think it reaches the level that you are envisioning but it is a good start. The following is pasted from the flyer for the course:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BACK COUNTRY OUTDOOR LEADER SKILLS -- 2008

This course is aimed at all adults working with older youth regardless of program (Venture Patrol, Varsity Scout,

Venturing Crew, or Explorer Post).

The target audience are leaders planning High Adventure treks at backcountry venues not supported by BSA

infrastructure; however, units planning to attend High Adventure bases supported by BSA will find this course

useful, inasmuch as unit shakedowns will, most likely, take place in venues not supported by BSA infrastructure.

Back Country Outdoor Leader Skills is offered by the Council Training Committee as an optional follow-on to the basic

course, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. Its goal is to provide adult leaders with an overview of such topics as:

Working With Older Youth

Risk Management

Wilderness First Aid

Leave No Trace

Terrain Awareness

Cooking & Clean-up

Personal Hygiene

Resources

Equipment Needs

Equipment Maintenance

On the Trail Tips

Teambuilding & Leadership Development

Part 1 Addresses ways to effectively work with older youth and covers the detailed preparation and planning that

must be done before you go out including risk management. Summarizes the personal and crew equipment used for

lightweight camping. Plans are also made for the weekend overnight session.

Part 2 Participants will practice core leader skills for the outdoor program Leave No Trace, navigation (map &

compass plus GPS), terrain awareness, expedition menu planning and food preparation, stove and stove maintenance,

wilderness first aid issues, expedition health and hygiene, team building.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The course went way beyond the Leader Specific/IOLS course. The overnight had the class divided into backcountry patrols (sadly without the hiking-We only had to hoof it for about 100 yds) and practiced backcountry cooking, LNT, camp site set up, bear bagging etc.

One of the more interesting discussions was transitioning troop gear away from the chuck box toward lighter weight gear. The rationale was that scouts don't have to unlearn car camping when they head into the back country. Also, now that many of us don't have huge vehicles the gear often needs to go in the trunk of a compact car.

Trainers were excellent and some were active nationally so this may be a pilot program.

The only prerequisites are that students have to have registered and 21 or over, have completed the Boy Scout, Venturing or Varsity Leader Specific Training and have a current Class 3 physical.

I think the course that you guys are thinking about would be similar to the above but with a longer outdoor component.

Hal

Since overnight camping is a requirement for Tenderfoot, is all further camping considered retesting?

Hal

I'm not sure where you live but in the DC area a 30%-40% chance of Thundershowers is the default forecast for summer afternoons. That leaves a 60-70% chance that the weather will be just fine. Is there a place at the water park where the cubs can safely take shelter should a storm materialize? They should have a plan. Most thunderstorms pass quickly (at least in our area) so it might not be for all that long. What is the water parks emergency procedure in case of T-storms?

Plan B might be to take shelter while the storm passes and then resume plan A. As long as there is a place to keep everyone safe while the storm passes it should be fine. If the storm hangs around for too long than dash for the cars and call it a day. You have done your best to have an activity so you would still qualify for the summertime award. This is not an ideal plan B but it might be a better idea than dropping $80-150 for a backup location.

It is always a good idea to have some songs and stories ready to go to pass the time. One thing I have learned about cubs and younger scouts is that they are far more resilient when it comes to weather than adults. Years ago, I took two dens of Webelos to summer camp. It rained most of the week. I recall that swim check was the only time the scouts got in the water. A river formed in the middle of our camp site (running under the den chief's tent plat). Wood was too wet to start a campfire. Miserable week, right? No! The kids had a blast splashing in puddles while the adults huddled under the fly. Instead of campfires, everyone huddled around a lantern under the fly and sang songs and told stories. Some activities happened, some didn't but the boys had a great time. Go figure.

Worse comes to worse, if the weather forecast goes south and it is going to rain all day or there just isn't a way to be safe, cancel. A year from now, is anyone really going to remember or care that your pack did not get the Summertime award?

Best of luck.

Hal

I agree with Gern. We see the scat and the tracks but we rarely ever see the bear. And yes, bears do sh*t in the woods.

I took a Back Country Leaders course offered by our council last year and it was suggested that under LNT it is good practice for everyone to double up to reduce the number of tent bottoms on the ground and the overall size of the camp site. Not a requirement (though they suggested that as leaders we make it so for our units) but good practice.

In a non-back country situation, the sites we get a district camporees fill to overflowing if everyone single tents.

Hal

Barry:

I guess that there is a world of difference between practices at Northern Tier and Philmont or where we are in the Mid-Atlantic.

Most of our trekking is in the Spring and Summer and hypothermia is not a major concern when we are making camp. Last week was unseasonably cool in the mountains of Virginia but it was still warm/hot until well after sunset. The temperature tended to plummet at about 1amWe were generally making camp in the early afternoon.

Though I have not yet had the pleasure of a Philmont trek I believe that the situation is similar, warm/hot by day and cool/cold at night.

Of course, if we had a scout at risk of hypothermia (perhaps he fell in a creek) we would adjust as safety warranted.

Hal

We start with the bear bag too. One reason is that it is often difficult to find a suitable tree limb (Strong enough, high enough but not too high to throw a line over) so the bear bag location often drives everything else. When we arrive at a site the patrol leader/crew chief decides bear bag location, cook area and latrine area. If it is raining or rain is threatening we will set up our fly first and put the packs under it. Scouts will then set up the bear bags. Other scouts may be detailed to filter water at this time. Once everything else is done the scouts are free to set up tents. The mantra is Crew Comes First.

A trick that we learned is to have a second line with a "Oops" or "Hurry up" bag for the smellables that scouts (or adults) forgot. This is light enough that one person can raise and lower it so it isn't a big deal when someone realizes that they still have a granola bar in their pocket. The First Aid kit and smellable meds also go in this bag.

I'll start with a "How stupid could I be?" story. I was a new Cubmaster at Webelos' camp. They told us to bring seasonings for foil dinners and it did not occur to me that an unopened plastic jar of garlic salt was in fact food. In the middle of the night I heard a rustling sound and when I reached for my flashlight I got fur. I pulled back my hand and started kicking the foot bar on my cot which caused the critter (raccoon, I think) to skedaddle. On checking I discovered that even I could smell the garlic through the plastic. I was an idiot (opinions vary as to whether that has changed).

At Boy Scout Camp we have had some close encounters. A scout left food in his tent and returned to find a faint but distinct odor of skunk. Rendered the tent uninhabitable for the week.

Last year, two scouts at summer camp were awakened by rustling and heavy breathing outside their tent. They did not have food in their tent and whatever it was it went away. They went back to sleep thinking that their buddies were playing a prank on them. In the morning they found a very distinct bear print in the mud behind their tent.

I suspect that our experiences are typical. Our older scouts know to secure food in the chuck box at summer camp and in bear bags on the trail. The older scouts who have done high adventure treks know what the smellables are. We regularly camp in bear country but fortunately our bears are not as resourceful as the ones at Philmont.

If your older scouts have similar experiences they should share them with the younger ones. IMHO, scouts will get the message from older scouts much more clearly than from us.

Hal

"Your life-lesson here should be: Don't work for a jerk!"

Thank you Kudu for your stunning and insightful analysis. I am so happy that you have never found yourself working for a jerk and have never had to discuss such situations when interviewing for the next job. I doubt that I would enjoy working for, with or around you. I doubt that 300 feet would be far enough.

But this is not really a referendum on parlor vs. outdoor scouting, BP, GBB or Woodbadge in the 21st century. The SMC and BOR are requirements for rank whether you like them or not.

That said, my point is that the scout is leaving the troop as an almost Life scout. I am suggesting that if he can complete that chapter in his trail to Eagle it would give him a a better starting point with his new troop. Indoors or out it is sometimes necessary for us to put our feelings about others aside to attain a goal. If he can do it, fine. If not he should consider how he will address this in the BOR that he will doubtless have soon after joining the new troop. The new troop will know nothing of his performance in his POR (I know you hate those too but they are a requirement for rank) or what he has done as a Star scout.

On the other hand he might want to drop back and spend some time in rank with the new troop, let them get to know him and then move forward with SMC and BOR. At 14 (maybe 15 by January) there is still plenty of time for that option

Our troop has had problems with getting records on transfer scouts. I would suggest (as others have) that CaliDrmr09 (great name BTW)assemble as much of his own records as possible, Blue Cards, Rank Cards and/or Troopmaster or Scoutnet printouts. I would think that most troops would accept the cards as proof of rank and merit badges. Documenting what he has done in a POR as a Star scout could be a challenge if the old SM is uncooperative. This could be resolved by either completing the SMC and BOR with his old troop, meeting with and mending fences with the old SM before leaving in hopes that he will forward complete records, hoping that the new SM will accept his word that he completed a POR or do a POR with the new troop. It is up to the scout to choose which is the best path.

Again Dreamer, best wishes for your future in scouting.

Hal

I wonder about your status as to Life Scout. It might behoove you to complete the SMC and BOR before you move. This probably means your going to need to start being active in your troop again, at least for a couple of months. I realize this may cause you some discomfort but think of it as a character building exercise. It will be easier for your advancement to transfer as a Life scout than to arrive and immediately ask your new troop for an SMC and BOR.

If I were on your BOR in the new troop I would probably ask about why you had not completed the SMC and BOR in your old troop and why you went inactive. Think about how you will answer that question without bad mouthing your former troop or SM as that would be bad form (scout is Loyal, Courteous). If you go this route, think and choose your words carefully. This is a good experience as you may have to do the same thing in a job interview later in life.

Best of luck either way.

Hal

"Well we have had girlfriends show up for eagle projects and courts of honor! "

As an aside, let me share this cautionary tail. My son's high school sweetheart helped on his Eagle project and was there at his Court of Honor. In fact, she was in every single picture of him from the COH (except the group shots that didn't turn out too well). At the time they were joined at the hip and no crow bar could pry them apart. Six months later when this great love affair came to a crashing end none of the pictures could be displayed.

So, take heed and get at least one good solo shot of the new Eagle unless you are adept enough to Photoshop GF out of the Eagle pictures. Time heals all wounds. Four years later ex-GF is now a friend so maybe, just maybe the Eagle pix can go back on the mantle.

Hal

Lisa is right that the Blue Card should also have the name of he Merit Badge on it. Don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier.

Hal

"While the ACLU fights for acceptance for everyone's individual expressions, why are those of the BSA; uniforms , standards, and customs being critized by a vocal group both in and out of Scouting?"

"When the ACLU begins to fight for gun rights as strongly as the right to call an image of a crucifix in a glass pitcher of urine "art"--they may have some street cred. "

Used to Be:

I think this might be a record. You hijacked your own thread in the first message. Objected to it in your second and then did it again. Perhaps the title of the thread should be ACLU and the BSA uniform. Unfortunately, there isn't much to work with since I doubt that the ACLU has a position one way or the other regarding the uniform.

What bothers me here is how so many threads become an issue of conservative vs. liberal. Gun rights and sacrilegious art have nothing to do with whether or not scouts are proud to wear their uniform or are driven away by it.

To respond to the topic. Yes. The uniform does drive kids away. So does camping and hiking and sports and girls and cars and the membership policies and the other boys in the troop and parents pushing them to earn Eagle cause it will look really good on his college application or because his father did (or didn't). Lots of things drive kids away from scouts not the least of which is, "I never really wanted to join but my parents said I should".

The question should be, is it a uniform that those who choose to be scouts want to wear?

Hal

There isn't a problem with that. The problem comes when the scout finds the counselor on his own without consulting the SM, works on the merit badge and the first time the SM hears about it is when the scout presents the SM with a completed blue card. At this point the SM can either accept it or tell the scout that it is invalid because he didn't follow procedure. To make matters worse it turns out that the counselor is not registered as a counselor or not approved for that badge. At this point you have a disappointed scout, angry parents ("you're just throwing roadblocks in front of our darling boy. How will he make Eagle by 14 if you keep doing things like this to him") and an off the rails MBC who promises not to do it again but will.

The best thing that an SM can do is be firm and consistent in the message, "do not start work on a merit badge until you have a blue card with the counselor's name and my signature.

There is nothing wrong with this scene.

Scout: Mr. Adler, I want to work on Citizenship in the Nation

SM: That's great. There are three counselors I know, Mr. Green, Colonel Mustard and Miss Scarlet, do you have a preference.

Scout: Mr. Green is Billy Green's dad. I think I would like to work with him.

SM: Mr. Green it is, here's your blue card with Mr. Greens phone number on it.

or this scene

Scout: Mr. Adler, I want to work with Col. Mustard on Citizenship in the World. Can I get a blue card?

SM: Sure, he's on the list of approved counselor's list.

The SM also has every right to say, "You've already done two badges with him, I think you really need to work with a different counselor for this one. How about Mrs. White?

Scout: I've heard she is hard.

SM: She really knows the subject so you can learn a lot from her. The requirements are the same no matter what counselor you work with.

Scout: All right. How do I get in touch with her?

SM: I'll put her number on the blue card.

The point is that the SM needs to be in the loop and should guide the scout to the counselors that will best serve the scouts growth. Insisting that all merit badges be started with a signed blue card with the counselor's name on it is the best way to control this. Giving the card without the counselor's name is like handing out a blank check. Not a good idea.

Hal