Gonzo1

OGE,

Doesn't it seem odd that a school REQUIRES volunteerism? Required service isn't voluntary, it's mandatory.

A Thousand Points of Light Foundation engages and mobilizes volunteers.

http://www.pointsoflight.org/about/

Packsaddle,

You've never seen the inside of my closet, besides a skeleton or two, there's a demon.

Maybe the online training should be completed BEFORE the unit signatures go on the application.

Packsaddle,

I know there's one somewhere.

Gern,

I thought it was the one with th pitch fork or the forked tongue, I can't remember.

Merlyn,

It's just a joke, I don't REALLY think the the devil. Devilish maybe, but not Lucifer, the ruler of the Lake of Fire, Great Eteranl Damnation and all that stuff. Just someone I don't agree with. The irony is that we probably agree on more things, but we don't discuss anything other than gay / atheist issues. How about knots and lashings? I like the one haned bowline best. How about fire building. I almost always use flint and steel, how about you? Gasoline and a flame thrower I bet. Again, just a joke, I don't think you own a flame thrower.

I wish they a a thread to duke it out in. I enjoy being a spectator.

Couldn't edit for some reason:

Drat! No picture of Merlyn to see what he looks like.

I don't agree with 100% of the policies, but I support them 100%.

It's just my opinion, but after 2-3, maybe a little more, that's about right.

I think taking WB while your first born son is still in tiger cubs is too early. Unless, you've been participating in scouts as an adult before any son was in cubs.

I think some people just want the beads.

When I want YOUR opinion, I'll give it to you.

Merlyn,

I don't debate you anymore because of your tone. I really believe you have no "standing" here as you are not a scouter or a parent of a scout. I've been reminded that you are welcome however.

I don't wish you any ill will, I just don't like your cram it down someone's throat attitude. I'm not calling you any names, I just believe that atheists don't belong in the BSA, neither do homosexuals or girls until and unless they join Venturing. It's not the Boy Scouts of Gonzo or Boy Scouts of Merlyn, if it were, you'd have atheist scoutmasters and I wouldn't.

I did not disparage your honesty, I pointed out your admitted dishonesty. Perhaps as a child (as in cub scouts) you may not have had the capacity to know the difference, but agreeing to live by the scout oath and law, cub scout promise and law of the pack, the scout actually commits to do those things. When the parent signs the application, the parent knows exactly what they are doing. So in honesty, I charge your parent with fraudulently putting you in cub scouts. That's right, I charge your parent. Your parent (if an atheist) knew what they were doing. It was a long time ago, I hope you had a nice experience. Simply not saying "under God" or ommitting "reverent" from the scout law doesn't make it OK. By the time a scout joins boy scouts, he is usually 10 or 11, old enough to know what the scout oath and law really mean.

Check the application form, The scout signs it and so does the parent. Trying to get away with being in the closet is fraudulent, wouldn't you say so councellor? You are an attorney, right? Doesn't signing something mean anything? Or is it acceptable as long as you make it fit your desires. It's kinda like "that depends on what the definition of 'is' - is."

You know Merlyn, if you think we're such a rotten bunch, why do you come back for more? There are some things I wish I could change about BSA, but the "constitutional issues" aren't on my list. You can join Sprial Scouts or start your own group.

BTW, I enjoy reading your banter with Ed, I miss our little chats, but not that much. I simply disagree with much of what you have to say here.

Lisa,

Sounds like old timers with out of date training / knowledge or younger adults with out of date memories of what is was like "back in the day".

Recommend to your council training committee to get the facts in the newsletter, on the council website and to UC and roundtable staffs.

I took it after about 4-5 years as an adult leader in a troop. I think Beavah is about right 2-3 years or so in a troop.

You just can't beat Juan Valdez, plain coffee.

When I was in Kuwait, I discovered iced coffee. Panera's I.C. Mocha is about as good a iced coffee as you'll find. Yummy and a kick in the pants!

GoldWing,

OK, humor noted.

Had the cool uniform, girls in port, etc. I also had the coolest job and enlisted man could get, I flew in the back of helicopters and operated radar, sonar, other electronic equipment and performed anti-submarine warfare. Way Cool. After being named St. Louis MO area Navy Reserve Sailor of the Year and completing my BS degree while simultaneously enrolled in Chiropractic College, I obtained a direct commission into the Army Reserve Medical Service Corps (in the rear with the gear) and became a Second Lieutenant. I retired as a Captain. I miss the girls, the flying, cool stuff, 3 hots and a cot, didn't mind the dirt. Liked the change of pace.

I don't think it's so much that the Army does it this way, so everyone else should too. It's just the way the Army does it.

Kudu,

"What make you a trained leader?"

and "Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills."

I've been to each of those courses as well. Plus, YP, the old Scoumastership Fundamentals, I've taught many of the YP, NLE, Leader Specific Training, and Outdoor Leader Skills training courses. I attended WB in 1994 in the Eagle Patrol in an outdoors oriented course that taught leadership skills, some touchy feely nonsense and outdoors skills. I'm also a UC and attended Basic and Bachelor level training. My schedule lately has been full, couldn't attend Master level this year. Since I'm and Eagle Scout and a Brotherhood member and have been to a host of military leadership courses, I'd say with confidence that I'm a trained leader. In a PM to me, you listed quite a resume yourself. With your impressive resume, I'm sure you consider yourself a trained leader, not just a minimally trained leader. Afterall, Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills are just basic courses. With your past position of leadership, have you been able to make change???? That is, did you stop WB for 21st Century or go along with it? I haven't attended the "new" course, so I don't know first hand about it. My personal feeling is that it shouldn't have been tinkered with, but that a new course could have been added and left the "old" WB course alone - but that's a whole other thread, isn't it?

Kudu, Many of us would appreciate a return to the "old" ways, you, me, many others. I'd like to see signally MB come back. Add more outdoor emphasis, make Backpacking MB required.

I am a huge supporter of Patrol Method. If the PLC didn't decide what happens, shame on them. The patrol leaders and SPL run the show. The SPL shouldn't be making duty rosters for patrols, but to give the tools necessary to the PL's. I disagree with the notion of having PL's for life. 6 months minimum, maybe a year tops, but at the decision of the PLC.

Adults should NEVER do for a boy what a boy can do for himself.

In the end, i see the benefits of WB as unlimited to a troop, the troop committee, the boys, the boy leaders, the individual who attends. I'm sure many folks here never really finish "working their ticket", because we see "ticket items" all over the place. A need to fix this, change that, help him or her. Share this item with someone else or help out at a camp-o-ree.

Gonzo

Trev,

It's sorta odd, since Clinton's now famous "Don't ask, don't tell" policy toward homosexuals in the military, MORE people have been discharged after don't ask, don't tell went into effect. Hmm, I don't know when DRP became embedded, I know that girls, atheists and homosexuals aren't allowed (not including girls in Venturing). I don't care for the de facto local option regarding membership and DRP. There's always Spiral Scouts, Boys and Girls clubs, etc.

Besides, it's not so much an accusation as it is an admission on his part. I wish I had the time to find the quote, but he did say it.

OGE, it's too bad you closed the other thread, that's all.

I like the Ed and Merlyn show.

I think Merlyn is a lawyer and would probably run for office someday. He wouldn't get elected and then would blame Ed for it.

Here's an observaton: Ed is a better debater, Merlyn is a better repeater of "Ed, you can't learn" and then keeps beating that drum.

Here's another: I continually wonder WHY Merlyn hangs out here, he really doesn't have "standing". That is, he isn't a scout and has admitted to being a cub scout fraudulently, that is, his mother was a leader (an atheist) and that while a cub scout, Merlyn was an atheist. In the military, we call that fraudulent enlistment- punishable by a less than honorable discharge (not good) for entering under false pretenses.

Ed - Got get him.

OGE, please open the other thread, let them have it.

I'm glad I don't argue with Merlyn anymore, it's pointless, I think he's the one who can't learn.

Gold Winger,

You said: "John, I don't question what that you believe that you are right but I do question your judgement in leaving the Navy to join the Army."

I said I left the Navy to enter the Army. Why on Earth would you question MY judgement about my career choices?

Brent,

No, I have not seen the silly knot.

However, we must get together for lunch sometime.

G

Packsaddle,

Maybe if you were wearing an axe-in-body belt buckle, they would have known you were safe to talk to and not rat them out to the cops.

Gonzo

Gold Wing,

John-in-KC and I are both retired soldiers. John currently works on an army base in Kansas. I was in the reserves when General Schoomaker made the order to add the flag patch to all of our field uniforms. When I was in 3d Medical Command from 2001 to 2004, the DCU's already had the flag patch sewn on, yes it was 'backwards'. In 2003 or 2004, everyone in the Army had to sew on the flag patch. The U. S. Army mandated that the American flag would be worn on BDU's, DCU's and now the ACU.

I'm sure John has additional information for you.

Regarding ships and boats, yes, submarines are boats. yes, in a general sense, ships carry boats. Boats lean into a turn, ships lean away from a turn. So, before Gold Wing questions my information, before I got into the Army, I was in the Navy for 16 years. I deployed aboard many ships and flew for over 1,500 hours in helicopters performing anti-submarine warfare.

GW,

"Hopefully, the new uniform due out soon will fix that.

Probably not."

Umm, let's see, I hope that the "new" uniform will eliminate the need for so called "class A" and "class B" uniforms. There really is only 1 uniform in BSA, the field uniform, tan dress maker shirt, green pants, belt, etc. I know there is an acitivity uniform out there, I have yet to see a patrol or troop wear it in 20+ years of scouting.

I don't have a real problem with troop t-shirts, or t-shirts from camps, camp-o-rees, etc, but I find that "class B" uniforms are sub-standard except when doing real physical work that might damage the uniform shirt. I just wear my class A uniform, even camping.

If a scout participates and really puts something into HIS program, then YES, he can benefit from being inscouts.

If, on the onther hand, the lad is more like a flea, then he might absorb something via osmosis, but will probably not gain the most and will likely have a negative experience.

Hopefully, the new uniform due out soon will fix that.

Robvio,

Kudu's "Troop Method Statements" are Kudu's troop method statements, not BSA's. While there may be some validity to the 8 points he makes, rember, every scout deserves a trained leader.

You'll have fun, if you were a scout, you may feel like one again during WB, I did. But then again, I went to WB along time ago - in the "old" WB course.

It's all about the boys and the patrol. I agree with a lot of what Kudu says, but not everything.

Get the handbooks he recommends, go to WB, have fun!