Get Outdoors

We go at it alone I many of us feel we are a much better units doing so.

I present the district and council activities to the troop/PLC and they shoot it down every time. I was hopeful of this last district camporee when the theme was a catipult competition. Our boys were all into it up until they learned that our partols had to build the exact same machine as all the other partols. Plans provided by the district. So much for boy led. For some reason they don't think the boys are capable of thinking and doing for themselves.

A LOT of time it's not us!!!!!

Our council has informed us that they have no records for four people. They're idiots because the 4 people are me, ASM and SM for the fast 5 years, an ASM who's also been a den leader for 5 years, my wife who's been a MB cousilor for 3 years and a commitee member for 2 years. This is the same idiots that told me my training wasn't up to date, when I went to check online. those idiots changed my account number. Our council is one big mis-managed group because....NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

These paid people forget that they have jobs to support us, the units. Until they figure that out....I don't send the money. (my way of encouraging them to be accountable)

I hate recharter time!

I can't beleive I'm reading that 50 or 60% of the boys participating in activities is acceptable. To me that's failure.

Our participation is 90% for most meetings at activities. The missing 10% are parents....opps I ment kids that are in it for eagle. How you ask? First, fun is put ahead of anything else. If we keep it about fun then the boys want to be there. Then we threw the whole boy led book in the trash and do what works for our boys. That being said, we are a boy DRIVEN troop but the boys tell the adults how boy led they want to be and we hold them to the standard they set for themselves. The boys decide on the uniform policy. Our Class A's aren't worn a whole lot. We think of them as Sunday clothes. We allow electronics as long as they aren't a distraction and encourage them to be used as tools and not toys. The boys plan the activity calender and the adults execute the planning with the boys being our support staff. The adults tend to influence what gets planned for troop/patrol meetings the boys execute the plan with adults as support staff. We generally don't have more than two troop meetings a month and those are sometimes "day-trip" type of meetings. We camp every month but we generally don't camp for the sole purpose of sleeping in a tent and cooking on a fire. Our camping trips usually have a specific activity associoated with them. Camping is just where we sleep for the trip. The activity is the carrot that gets them outdoors.

Like it or not, kids today are not the same kids they were back in 1925, 1975, 2005 or even 2010. If we don't make adjustments, think outside the box and stay ahead of the curve, membership in the BSA will continue the nose dive. National will never keep up with the times so it's up to the individual units to do whatever is required to keep OUR program strong. Forcing tradition on teenagers is not the answer. How many kids in your unit can't wait to to that skit or song at the next camporee but are forcing them to do it anyway because "that's what we've always done.

"Not sure what you mean, basement. "MC" is the code for unit committee member. See the adult application."

Only in the military and BSA that we have a "secret" code. Sorry for those of us that didn't take the 4 hour training class "speaking scouting"

Off the top of my head;

Boy Scouts

Our District does 2 camperees that are usally pretty good, One in the spring, MB weekend and one in early winter. That boy genreally like to attend because they get to hand out with people they know outside our unit and a usally pretty inexpensive.

In addition to summer camp; Our council does a spring break camp and winter camp (MB Factories) Our boy usally don't sign up because 1) they are genarally very disorganized and 2) cost. Council will disagree but most of us "in trench folks" beleive they use it as a proffit center. Spring break is $180 for a 3 1/2 day event that they provide food and $50 for winter camp they provide nothing. If the unit wants to stay indoors, the cost is an additional $25.00 PP.

Cub Scouts

Our District holds one or two a year along with a summer day camp. Council in addition to their summer camp, I think they do two.

Ohanadad, I'm not against WB at all and a lot of units benefits from some of the folks that sacrifice their personal time go through the course. Even though I practice leadership for a living, I have to assume I would get something out of it and possibly make me a better leader. My point from my previous post is the beads, stuffed animals, songs, skits, special neckerchiefs, whatever... shouldn't be what's important. Recognizing adults for their personal accomplishments has no place at functions intended for the youth we serve. If you want to present awards to adults, great but do it at an event intended for that purpose.

SR540, NYLT and WB are apples and oranges. NYLT is all about youth so hence the adult support. I believe a lot of the negativity toward WB comes from some of the folks that choose to boldly wear their WB success on their chests. I don't see this as a common problem but it's the "one bad apple spoils the bunch" thing. I also believe WB would be better off if they toned it down a bit and save the traditions and advertisements to adult functions. As an example; so all members of a troop, adults included wear the same uniform just as a sports team would. Why is it acceptable for a WB grad to wear the WB neckerchief instead of the troop neckerchief at troop/pack functions? I've know a well respected and skilled SM for quite a few years. Up until recently, I didn't know he was a WBer. He's one of those guys that dont need to tell anyone how good he is... he demonstrates how good he is.

If the units and districts would use some common sense and find the appropriate times to pat adults on the back, then the things that were described in the original post wouldn't happen.

We use a trailer but could do without if we changed our current "personality". We've gone from a backpacking/dirt camper troop to a more high adventure type troop. We do lots of paddle and bike trips, laid-back car camping trips usually turn into cooking type competitions so we end up taking everything including the kitchen sink "just in case"

"At camp I saw a multi-trailer unit with a trailer that turned into a mobile kitchen for their two meals they had to cook on their own. They also had a generator in another going all the time with flood light towers. I heard stereos going all the time. No doubt the leaders were working on piping in AC to all the individual tents. Must have been tough on the poor laddies...away for 6 days and all. Kinda soured me on the trailer thing a bit."

Funny, We went to Rock Enon (West Virginia) for summer camp a few years ago and saw a trailer similar to this except it had a flat screen TV and Direct TV dish with adults sitting around. (I didn't see kids watching) It's quit sad but I guess you do what you need to do to keep it going.

I had a similar "beads" conversation just this past weekend with a long time WB staffer that's been after me to take the course. When I said I wasn't interested in tickets (I already give as much as possible to the troop) and I don't have the time for tickets he explained that's what I need to do to get my beads. He couln't quite grasp the concept that in my mind, adult awards in a youth organization is at the bottom of my important list, being better at working with kids is at the top.

Beading awards or any adult awards have no place in functions intended for kids.

I used to do Start, Stop, Continue with a limited amount of success. Now I "require" every scout to bring at least one Troop, Patrol and/or adult leader complaint to their SMC.

From a SM of a troop that struggles with Boy Led...I would much rather have a 12 or 13 year old SPL that wants to do the job rather than a 16 year old that is there because he's popular or needs leadership time. I can work with a young SPL that is willing to do the work required much easier than I can work with someone that doesn't care.

"The idea being to have a smaller, less costly, immediate, ready to eat option available."

Sell something else. If you're trying to pop Trails End and then cutting it sell it to the public; First, I'm not sure BSA ot Trails end would approve, second, as soon as you open that bag of popped popcorn, you need a health dept. permit.

The only way to lower the cost of the poor quality Trails End stuff is for Nation and Council to lower their cut and we all know that will never happen. We all also know a lower close item in the $3 - $5 range would be a great seller. All of us except National.

The troop has been meeting Sunday nights since before I was involved. At first it does take some getting used to. The idea of having to disrupt my Sunday was tough, now it's just part of my schedule. I think it may hurt our recruiting somewhat, the thought doesn't sound all that appealing to 11 year olds and their parents. However once they get a little older and busier, that all changes and I think we retain better than most troops.

We don't meet on weekends were the kids have off from school on a Friday or Monday so it doesn't cut into family trips. We camp once a month so we don't meet on those Sundays. I think we have more than enough meetings at about 30 year. We're a quality not quantity troop. Again, I think that helps on retaining scouts.

The only down side is some church youth groups meet Sunday afternoons and evenings, it's never been a problem for us as far as I know.

What I like most is it doesn't conflict with other activities, sports, jobs and girlfriends, something that we shouldn't only accept but encourage.

Camp Shenandoah (Virginia) closed camp last week due to severe tree damage, power outage and destroyed tents and program areas. Many thanks to all the volenteers that put that camp back in business. I'm sure the same needs to be said about the brothers and sisters all over the mid atlantic.

Here's the link to slides of the damage. http://www.bsa-sjac.org/CampDamage

Thanks Mr. Hawkins, For a while I thought it was me not "grasping" the message or having trouble with my math skills. Maybe a new "Smoke Blowin' Merit Badge" is right around the corner. Tell you what you want to hear is the new business way of doing things, not only in Scouting but seems to be everywhere these days.

Calloo, When you single someone out, it's bullying. Bullying is aggressive behavior that is intentional and that involves an imbalance of power.

In addition to what other have already siad; The new Guide to Advancement is a home run. I like they they took some of the gray out of it.

On the flip side I think retired SM's would make great CC. They already know the program and goals and THEY BELIEVE.

I'm not sure I'm following you. If we grow the youth membership we should also get more adults in the pool of possible adult leaders, each year you get a fresh younger crowd that brings on a new excitement to the program. Scouting is an activity that the whole family has to buy into. For those that didn't grow up around Scouting, it's hard to grasp that scouting isn't all about MB's and helping old ladies cross the street. They don't get the challege that we offer.

On the flip side I think retired SM's would make great CC. They already know the program and goals and THEY BELIEVE.

I'm not sure I'm following you. If we grow the youth membership we should also get more adults in the pool of possible adult leaders, each year you get a fresh younger crowd that brings on a new excitement to the program. Scouting is an activity that the whole family has to buy into. For those that didn't grow up around Scouting, it's hard to grasp that scouting isn't all about MB's and helping old ladies cross the street. They don't get the challege that we offer.

Ahhh...I struck some nerves, great!

So I'm off my rocker and being extream and unrealistice.....It really looks that way but have you had an open discusion with your youth and parents or paid attention to what people are saying? Each item I've listed, 1 -17 has been discussed, mentioned or complained about at one time or another in our troop. Since I've been the SM, it's been a tradtion that most Saturday night campfires are with youth and adults. It's a wide open anything can be discussed gathering. It's where we trully get to know each other. It's the best time I have in scouting. I'm pretty sure the boys enjoy it as well when they ask me what time are we doing campfire. Funny, My answer has been the same for the 100th time..."I don't know, when is campfire?"

Sure my list is extream but my point is that Scouting has a great tradition and I think we've come to a time where we need to be looking more to the future instead of the past. (proactive and not reactive) If we look how fast society in general has progressed in the past 10, 15 or 20 years, scouting has been left in the dust. Go back 100+ years ago...BP was ahead of his time and ahead of the curve. We are far from being that way today. The kids are telling us that, why aren't we listening?

Basement Dweller brings up a great point when asking where are the "young" 30 and 40 year old leaders. One of the reasons I beleive and have seen that the newer generation scouters be chased away by the older generation and some of the old traditions. We need to old timmers for the soul but the young folks need to be heart. Leaders in our small troop are all under 45, we have a very active, challenging outdoor program, great participation, we do a pretty good job guiding boys to first class, do ok with patrol style, right now we aren't doing so well on being boy led. (You can lead a horse to water.....) yet our 65 yr old unit comish gives me a bit of a hard time that we aren't doing it the right way. Someone stuck in the box.

Another main reason why we don't see younger leaders is it's a huge time commitment. I've coached youth sports, scouting is MUCH more time consuming. Generally speaking; the younger generations have a harder time with commitment. I feel that that the older generations are more givers and the younger folks are more takers.

If the BSA really wants to change and look to the future, it will take drastice changes, a big time shake-up. Call me crazy but the first step is doing away with Councils. Get ride of the paid people and bring in folks from the districts. The focus is then taken off salaries and bonuses and shifts to "what can we do for our youth?" Maybe this is another thread but....if councils where done away with next week, what would happen to your unit? What would your unit do differently?

The big question is: How do we keep the original scouting tradition alive but have a program that meets the desires of our modern youth? If we don't find the answer, I'm afraid we wont have a program to share the traditions with.

1) Fire all the lawyers that work for BSA.

2) Start the outdoor program at the Tiger level

3) Get rid of the money grubbers at council level (what does council do for the unit without charging them money?)

4) What do our customers (the boys)want? 4 backpacking trips a year in not the answer for most boys

5) Having a 100% boy led troop is unrealistic with today's youth. So why are we training adult leaders that this is the only way? Kids are lazzy and aren't willing to put in the time required for a troop to be sucessful. We have to find a balance.

6) The uniform s**k's Change it so kids will wear it. (our unit has pretty much done away with the class A excpet for formal functions. The uniform is about as uncool as it gets. This is boy led. they said we don't want to wear them and the adults said OK.

7) Do away with adult awards and recogintion crap. Most parents see adult uniforms decorated as weird.

8) Encourage a more high adventure program across the board. Car camping just to camp is boring for most kids. Whitewater Rafting, Skiing, snorkling, bike trips, climbing, white water canoe trips, kayaking is what brings our customers back.

9) Encourage less troop/patrol meetings. one or two a month in addition to an adventure trip is more than enough. Why do we have troop meetings without a goal?

10) Instead of troop meetings, how about day trips to play a softball game or swim at a local lake or river, visit a museum, how about a little paint ball or rent some ATV's

11) Stop the perception that we are here to get boys their Eagle. Lots or parents push kids to join scouts because it looks good to colleges.

12) Open Boys Scouts to girls 11 - 18.

13) A lot of grown men that have gone through woodbadge are over the top and the kids don't like seeing adults pushing the message. Showing off that you went to woodbadge needs to go away. Waering that special neckercheif or beads does nothing for the unit.

14) Using the phrase "When I was a scout" needs to be grounds for dismisal. Kids are not like we were. Oportunities for todays youth are 100 times greater than they were when we were kids.

15) A lot kids don't go to summer camp to have fun. The put up with summer camp to earn merit badges. Camps have been way too slow responding to this fact.

16) Why is scouting considered gay or uncool? It's the adults that made it that way not the boys or what the boys do on weekends. See #17

17) The term a cubmaster or scoutmaster serves should be limited to no more than 5 years and can't be over the age of 50 or at least have a child young enough to be in scouts.

The Boy Scouts of America is caught in the past. (Somewhere around 1975) We have a lot of work to do to bring it to modern times. I scares me to think that scouting may not be around for my grandchildren or great grandchildern to experience.

Carefull on how much Gatorade you push on kids. Most sports medicine people will tell you it's drank in addition to plain old water. A 16 oz. bottle of gatorage contains 26 grams of sugar. That's roughly 4 teaspoons. Look at G2 it has about half the sugar as the high test stuff.

"People often choose Gatorade for the wrong reasons. They believe it to be healthier than water, because that is how it was promoted. But, this sports drink is only healthier if you are a hardcore athlete. Otherwise, this sports drink contains way too much sugar for the average person to burn off throughout the day. Unfortunately, many people also prefer the taste of Gatorade over water."

http://voices.yahoo.com/how-does-g2-compare-original-gatorade-836473.html?cat=51

It's great that your council is asking for input! Our unit hasn't sold popcorn in like 10 years for these same reasons. I will add; 1) It's not a very good quality product 2) Looking at it from a man hours perspective; the popcorn has a very poor rate of return compared to other fund raisers.

Opted out....

Reasons for not selling

- #1 Very high product cost relative to perceived value

- #2 Arbitrary product people don't really need

- #3 Low profit margin for unit

(Our pack is donating some of our fundraiser results to FOS this year.)

Suggested changes

- Different product

- Different profit margin

If changed, would you sell

- Popcorn ... probably not

Recognition by rewards is truly important. Going to camporee or Klondife -- make sure every participating Scout gets a temporary patch to dangle from the shirt button (even if a button needs to be sewn on). Troop wins a competition - a ribbon to hang from the troop flag. A Scout wins the baking contest -- that's worth a medal. Finished a community service project - a picture and write-up in the local paper.

All of these will motivate most

I'm not in the camp that everyone wins and gets an award. I can agree it's sometimes important but where do we draw the line and begin changing that award for everything idea? Most kids we work with had always gotten some type of award or some type of praise for doing anything since they were born.

Where does the character kick in and the boy thinks "wow, I did really well with that and I feel great" and he doesn't expect someone to give him something and tell him how wonderful he is?

Our kids love competitions. They seem to give a little more effort. We try to do scout skills stuff to keep up their skills that most forget within a few days of getting it signed off.

Adults do not participate in patrol competitions. However we do sometimes get in on the kickball, whiffleball or football game. Adults mix in with the patrols but the focus is on the boys. (the football gets thrown to boys not adults) I think doing this sometimes, brings down some barriers that may exist between an adult and a kid. In addition to the boys thinking of us as mentors and/or leaders, I want them to think of me and the asm's as their friends as well, someone they can come to talk to about anything.

Infoscouter,

Choicepoint is huge. Many businesses use them and I understand the info is very up to date, within a a week.