Get Outdoors

How about shaking there hand and a big thank you? Save the cerimonies for the kids, especially for the cubs. They could care less what a Trained Leader means.

We just returned from summer camp and I have some of the same issues....MBC's that are way too young to be signing off blue cards. It's great seeing these young men and women teaching but quite honestly I don't feel they have the experence to teach some of this stuff. Luckily most of the MB's in question were not the "big" ones like Swimming, First Aid, Citizenships. I guess we'll be spending 3 - 6 months reviewing what they should have learned at camp.

I had a boy tell me during the last days of camp he wouldn't be earning shotgun shooting since he didn't hit 49% for two rounds. (very little teaching on the range) He told me he only hit 4 out of 50. I get blue cards back from camp and his card is signed.

I will not be giving him the merit badge because 1) he didn't earn it 2) he didn't learn the skill and 3) he will feel really good when he does accomplish the challenge. What I will do is give him the tools to meet the requirement.

The way I see it, the merit badge is not complete until both the MBC AND the SM sign the blue card. In our troop, you either know it or you don't. No free passes.

As BSA and our Councils keep adding requiremnts and giving the childish threats of... "if you dont do XXXX training, we will not recharter you next year" At what point does the potential new blood step back and say "I'm not to willing to give that much"?

We recently had a large group of new scouts join. I got talking with a new dad that I think could be a huge asset as an ASM and possibly my replacement someday. (I've known him for years ouside of scouting) As I was explaining the required training, I could see his enthuseasm dwindle as he started to realize the commitment outside of working directly with the boys and the liability BSA is attempting to pass onto volunteers.

As BSA and our Councils keep adding requiremnts and giving the childish threats of... "if you dont do XXXX training, we will not recharter you next year" At what point does the potential new blood step back and say "I'm not to willing to give that much"?

We recently had a large group of new scouts join. I got talking with a new dad that I think could be a huge asset as an ASM and possibly my replacement someday. (I've known him for years ouside of scouting) As I was explaining the required training, I could see his enthuseasm dwindle as he started to realize the commitment outside of working directly with the boys and the liability BSA is attempting to pass onto volunteers.

Back to the original post. Some have said the boy needs to go back to the MBC to get the new blue card signed. WRONG!

If the boy turned over the blue card to the advancement chair and that person lost it, the advancement chair needs to take responsability and go back to the counselors not the boy. The boy did his job, the adult didn't.

Yep, the lawyers are the ones that are pushing the required training for direct contact scout leaders.

I happen to agree with getting volenteers trained but national needs to look closely at this and not throw the kitchen sink at us. I also think most trained leaders are better than those that are not trained. Requiring the 4 or 5 days of training for all will just force potential new leaders away from the program. This is more of a problem for smaller troops.

1) Why not require two leaders to be completely trained. In addition one additional, completly trained leader for every X number of scouts. Two completely trained leaders required on all outings.

2) Look at a lower level manditory training (less time) for adult volenteers (not leaders)

3) Revamp the entire outdoor training program and make it more meaningful. Adults doing a campfire program with skits and songs is a waste of time as is the first aid breakout and nature. You can't even begin to cover these things in a few hours.

4) Require first aid & CPR for top leaders. Taught by professional trainers. I've seen too many scout sessions that were taught very poorly.

5) Make the required and recommended training policies black and white. No safety afloat, you don't canoe.

6) At that pack, all parents are required to take YP done at the pack level. A BALOO trained leader is required on a camping trip. Den leaders should also take it. This course could easily be done in a half day.

Pulling charter isn't the answer (more childish than anything)Find out why leaders aren't getting trained and fix the real problem. I spent a weekend, (about 48 hours) at camp taking outdoor. How much value did I get out of the investment of personal time? I had a great time but what did I really learn and how much has it helped me to be a better leader? Ask Minsi Trails Council how many leaders they had before the manditory training and how many they have now. Gotta make trained easier and less time if you want people to step up.

When I first started following this thread my though was "if this happens.....I'm done!" LOL The more I read and the more I think about it (open my mind) the more I think it COULD be a good thing.

In my opinion, the BSA is not perfect at all but what we do very well is 1)Character Developement 2)Citizenship Training, 3)Mental and Physical Fitness AND OUTDOOR PROGRAM. From what I see, the Girl Scouts don't do any of these very well. (but they can make a ton of money off those darn cookies!)

I look and see some very fine young men that may have turned out that way because of scouting. What would happen if we could do this with the young ladies as well.

Like someone said above...."I think the BSA has a great opportunity to make a difference in the lives of both boys and girls. And from an organizational viewpoint, this might be the cause that jump starts the BSA again."

I was quite proud to see that this morning on the front page of MSN!

I have to admitt, I don't go very often (yes, shame on me!) The times I do go, I feel like I could be doing something much more productive. IMHO, talking about scout skills and YP is a waste when someone with a half of a brian can easily find the information elsewhere.

My sugestions would be

#1 Have a published yearly calander with the topic of the month. That would give some of us a chance to look and say " Hey, I need to go to that meeting, that will help me help the troop!" (Sorry, I'll pass on the adult cooking competitions)

#2 The topics should be things we can't find in published BSA documents.

How about an expert on ADD or Asburgers. How about bullying or dealing with peer pressure? The most important training any leader could have is first aid and cpr.(sorry wood badgers) Lets discuss the importance of having the knowledge to save someones life. How about a Lawyer to discuss personal liability for volenteers for non-profits?

#3 Maybe review the BSA Advancement Policies and Proceedures. Discuss National policies vs. those that council has. How about what really happens when you have to take a boy for medical attention?

#4 Gotta loose that good 'ol boy, coffee club network steriotype. It should be more of a business meeting than a social event.

Gotta think outside the BS Box.

(Sorry about the spelling, spell check doesn't seem to be working)

Since so many myths are against National Policy and commonly practiced in the trenches, It makes me wonder if national policy can be modified, changed or added to at the District or Council level.

As one example, our council has a written policy that says "no scout can earn more than 5 MB's from a single couselor" (Publication 33088, page 13 says otherwise)

Does anyone know if they are permitted by National to make these types of changes?

A SM not allowingt a scout to take a required MB is going against the whole idea of Boy led. As long as a merit badge is being taught correctly, why not offer those at camp? Having a minimum age or rank may be wise to keep first or second year scouts from loading up on the eagle reguired ones.

Junk food at camp? OMG, send those kids home!!!!!!!!! How dare those kids.....well....act like kids!

I find it quite depressing how many adult hard-nosed egomaniacs there are in scouting. As long as I serve youth, I vow never to lose site of the fact that these are kids and my actions will have an impact on them for rest of their lives. Just like my scoutmaster impacted my life for the past 30 years. "It's easier to build a boy than repair a man"

I lived the nightmare of the illegal substances. Should they stay or kick them out. Call the police? Sleepless nights trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. Fighting with our commitee who wanted to "make examples of them" Parents that threatned to pull their kids out of Troop because they didn't want their kids around "those kinds of kids"

I asked myself some questions: Trustworthy?......Loyal?.......Helpful?......... Friendly?......... Curtious?......... Kind?........ I also asked myself what I would do if I caught my son smoking pot. Would I kick him out of my family or would I teach him so he's better prepared when he goes to school, the bus, the playground? As a parent and SM, am I giving "my boys" the tools they need to live in our world as an honorable men?

Thank you OGE, Great reminder. I think I'm going to read out of the book at our next COH.

After all these posts I've determined I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink.

For those that say if a boy is not participating it's due to lack of program. Take your head of of your DE's "you know what" We're a small 25 member Troop. I judge the sucess of our program by how many kids we have had drop out. We've had one in the past three or four years. I also judge our health by how many transfers we get from other troops. We average about two a year. I judge by how many crossovers we get. We've averaged 4-5 the past few years. I also look at how many register scouts don't regularly show up for meetings. unfortunatly 2-3. I don't judge by how many eagles we have. Spitting out eagle scouts is not specified in my job description.

That being said;

I still don't know what to do with these few older scouts. They have met the official requirments for advancement, participate in most troop meetings but I just cant get them on camping trips or anything outside of a Troop meeting. Trips that they sugested we do! Basically I think they are being lazzy or maybe "been there done that" or just have had enough of the outdoor program thing. However, if we let them slid on participation, where do we draw the line with the younger scouts. They could all basically camp a few times a year, do rank advancement and merit badges at home. Serve as leaders by text, Facebook and Twitter. We could all just get together a few times a year for COH's. I'll have the SM conferances with them via webcam. "scouting in the 21st century"......Kinda scary, isn't it.

My main concern, is these few "slackers" (they are really great kids)are pulling down the rest of the older boy patrol. Peer pressure, "well he isn't going so i guess I wont go just so I look cool" I'm thinking of pulling the plug on this patrol and mixing them into our very active experinced patrols.

What are your opinions if:

I kid brought a bottle of vodka on a camping trip?

How about an older scout brings some pot on an outing and shares with a two of his buddies?

Assume all these kids are "good" kids (all kids are good to some extent in my book)good scouts that I've never had any real problems with.

What would you do?

If 100% "Trained" becomes manditiory, I wonder how many new parents will be willing to volenteer when we tell them in addition to the one day for the basics and on-line stuff, one Sat. away from your family for leader specific, then take half day off from work fri. to be a camp for a full weekend of outdoor. Ummm just easier dropping the kid off.

I also wonder why all this training and not requiring ALL leaders to be First Aid/CPR certified.

1) The BSA needs to stop being greedy trying to make 80% profit margins off of us. We don't have a choice where we buy this stuff do we? (I would love to own a business with no compitition)

2) There are tons of companies that would love to provide for the BSA but with US wages higher than china, the BSA will need to settle for less profit. Say 50% Maybe $3 a day wage in china is true (not) but what does $3 buy that person in China? It's relative.

3) We want our stuff made in the USA, writing letters wont help. We have to hit National where it hurts, their pocket.

4) Instead of letters saying were not happy. Maybe a letter explaining that your chartered Organization will not support the FOS until we see, say 50% of the stuff in the scout shop labled "Made in America"

5) Maybe we could resort to giving money to kids instead of patches, might be cheaper! Kids could use it to buy more Playstation games! (it's a joke)

sorry, acco40, I see you don't allow them to advance. Per my DE, you don't have the power to do so. They consider that "adding requirments"

Not trying to debate you, I personally agree that is what is should be but I don't write the BSA rules.

acco40,

So what happens if the scout doesn't participate in 50% of the activities?

Nicely done Beaveh, thanks. I will certainly keep the "duties and obligations" thing in my back pocket. Where would I find the "rules and regulations" you referance below?

Why is it that the folks in TX are so wishy-washy about this, afraid to take a real position on this? Is it, if they have a policy they will have less kids in scouting? Less Eagle scouts? Is it all about the numbers to them? Kinda makes ya wonder.

If I, the SM doesn't sign an eagle application because the boy hasn't camped in a year and only attended a handful of meetings, the boy will appeal and concile will over-ride me anyway.

What I'm determining here is our Troop P&P is pretty much worthless unless it's supported by BSA policy.

FScouter where did you find this?

"Just to be clear, BSA does NOT define "active" as being "registered". What BSA has said is the a troop may NOT define "active" with an arbitrary percentage. "

I don't want to get to a topic that has been discussed in another threads but what the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures says is " A Scout will be considered "active" in his unit if he is 1) Registered in his unit 2) not dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons 3) Engaged by his unit leaders on a regular basis (informed of unit activities through SM conferences or personal contact, ect.)

The boys in our troop that were not participating were all 17+ yr olds. They didn't want to be in scouting anymore, regardless of the program provided. What's that saying? "you can lead a hourse to water but ya can't make him drink" The parents wanted them is scouts to earn eagle and put it on a college application. They want to tell others how wonderful their kids are.

Thanks everyone, this info is very helpful!

Our troop has a policy prohibiting leaders from signing off on their own boys. During a recent BOR our commitee denied a scout first class due to his father, an assistant leader signed off on a requirement that I know was completed correctly. (identify native plants) In this case the commitree is going by the Troop policies which is fine but this is coming from the same commitee that is presuring the SM (me) to sign off EAgle rank when the scout has been "Active" in about 10% of Troop activities. Our Troop also has a minimum policy for participation. (BSA's definition of "active" is being registered)The fact that the commitee is choosing when and when not to enforce the troop policies for their own son's benifit isn't right.

Our DE has explained to me; Troop policies are not enforcable outside of BSA policy.

Our adult leaders and/or visiting parents are the "Old Crows" on outings. (average 4-6 adults) We don't have any yell, flag, saying or any patrol "flash" Usually no formal meal planning or duty rosters. We just all chip in and get it done. We could just as easily be called the "adults". We leave the "boy scouting" to the boys. However, I could see the need to divide the adults into groups (patrols) when you get 8, 10 or more adults.

Does anyone know if the BSA has a written policy prohibiting a SM or ASM from signing off on their own son's rank adavancement requirements? I"m not looking for; is it right or wrong? I'm looking for the black and white version. I'm assuming this is adressed somewhere but I suspect I'm not looking in the right place.

Thanks

I wouldn't drop any merit badges, only add to the list. Part of what we are supposed to do as scouters is expose boys to things they may not otherwise have an oportunity to experience. If a kid gets to build a shelter and sleep in it, he may not directly get much out of it but maybe we have given him some confidence in himself or maybe he learns that those little red ants bit....HARD. If a boy takes Reading, is there something he learned in a book he read that may steer him down a path less traveled?

That being said, I feel most merit badge requirements could use some seroius overhauling. BSA needs to be thinking ahead of the curve instead of always playing catch-up. (my 2 cents worth)

It amazes me how many people don't get what scouting program is really about. Maybe ask this SM how he lives the oath and law is his daily life and what kind of example he's setting.

Don't waste too much time, contact your DE. If you don't get any satisfaction from him/her, contact nation. The reality is that Scouters have a "good 'ol boy" network and likely will not step on each others toes so you may need to talk with someone in power that doesn't have a relationship with this leader.