allangr1024

Are feeder packs for troops an official thing? In my council feeder packs are discouraged. But that does not stop troops from having VERY strong if unofficial ties to packs. So, for instance, if a den leader follows his son to a troop with the WEBELOS crossover, and becomes an ASM, he can go back to the pack and talk his friends, the new pack leaders, into encouraging the webelos to come to his troop.

I asked our district volunteer in charge of Webelos crossovers how to find crossing over webelos and found out that I am supposed to recruit den chiefs, hold activity badge fairs, invite Webelos on troop camping trips, do Webelos Woods, staff resident camp, and generally establish relations with 3 to 4 packs for a year prior to a crossover. I think I missed it for this year. They just don't do any training for new SM's on this stuff.

So, how do you recruit if you do not have a feeder pack, have a small troop of 8 to 10 scouts, and have little contact with packs. (I never did have a kid in Webelos. I did not understand how it works at first.) What help can you expect from council professionals? What training is there for recruiting?

I did this last year with four scouts, and this year we will probably get 6. (Small Troop). I made the mistake of taking the boys to build a shelter of foliage late in the day, and we only had time for one before dark. This year I will do that in the morning and make sure everyone builds one.

I wish I had time to show them how to make rope from tree bark, make beef jerky, cut poles and make a decent camp bed, but the one day is pretty full already.

I wonder if the question is best understood in this way. The Webelos program and the Boy Scout program are VERY different. Cub scouts and Webelos require adults and parents to lead, as young boys are not capable. But in Boy Scouts the adults and parents are to take a step back from troop leadership and let the boys make decisions, since this is more age appropriate.

I think the Scoutmaster ought to have a meeting of new parents, especially of cross over parents, and explain this. I would tell them "The boys are learning to stand on their own. You may come observe, but you may not interfere. You will camp in a 'Parents' camping area, cook and eat in the adult group (I hate the idea of the Adult Patrol, they are not members of the troop). Hike at the end of the line, and let the Scoutmaster and ASM's coach the boys."

I have found that parents will either join as adult scouters, or stop coming on camp outs.

We are doing this at the end of the month. My pitch to the scouts: Assume you are stranded on a deserted island or lost in a forest. You have minimal gear consisting of a tarp, sleeping bag, knife, some tin foil and one matchless fire starter.

I have my guys sleep in a tarp tent the first night, and then make a shelter from fallen trees and brush the next. I will show them how to make a ground bed from local materials.

I have each scout start a cooking fire with at least three fire starters. We will have a sparking rod, magnifying glass, battery and steel wool, a fire piston, and (if I can get one together) a bow and spindle set up. If I can get the polished pop can done in time, I will do that as well. I will bring some ordinary tin cans and teach them to make char cloth, for use with later fire building. If I have time, we will make some charcoal, although I will have a supply of store bought charcoal on hand since making the stuff takes all day.

We will make our meals using very minimal equipment. We will make bacon and eggs over a fire in a paper bag and toast made over the fire. We will make shish-ka-bob over the open fire (we will just have to whittle the bark off a straight stick). We will make a chicken noodle stew in containers made from tin foil and placed over cooking coals.

If we have time I will have each boy make the distress messages from the merit badge book that can be seen from the air.

I kind of like the idea of teaching them to lay snares and putting a chicken (or a Cornish game hen) in the snare while they are at other activities.

I predict that the highlight will be all of the fires they get to make in all the different ways.

I did Philmont with my son in 2005. No trails I could reasonably get to in Oklahoma (even the ozarks in Arkansas) prepared my for the mountain hiking at Philmont. I realized I needed to get in shape after our crews first weekend backpacking trip. I started climbing the 15 floors of our building and up and down twice per day. At Philmont, I found that on a climb I could go for 10 to 20 minutes before I was winded. I was puzzled since I considered a 15 story building stairwell pretty demanding. One of the other dads figured that I was used to climbing 150 to 170 feet at a time, and that that is about how much we would do in 15 to 20 minutes. So, I bet climbing a 20 to 30 stories building would have been more realistic.

You might suggest to the crew that they do all the stuff for first the Hiking merit badge, whether the boys need it or not, and then all the stuff for the Backpacking merit badge. For hiking you have to do five 10 mile hikes and then a 20 mile hike. For backpacking you do three 15 mile treks over 3 days and then a 50 mile five day trek. (we let Philmont itself be the last one). The boys got used to one another and started working as a team before Philmont, so that part of it was not a shock. One of our four adults did not do these hikes. He did not have fun.

You may indeed hold a position in a troop and a position in a pack. B U T !!! I would recommend the guy who takes the Scoutmaster position be dedicated solely to the troop. He will be active, especially in the first year.

Be aware that the Boy Scout program is very different from the Cub Scout program. The Cub program is very adult oriented with following Akela and the Webelos leader. But the Boy scout program is to be run by the scouts themselves, with the scoutmaster on the sidelines acting as a couch for the boy leaders (senior patrol leader, patrol leaders, ect) If he talks more than 10 minutes during a troop meeting, or is the center of any camping trip, he is in front too much where the youth leaders should be. A lot of den leaders do not get this when they cross over with their kid. Do the troop a favor, and read as much as possible about the "Patrol Method". Unfortunately, the best written instructions on this is in the Scoutmasters handbook from the 1930's and 1940's. I had to get one on EBAY.

I, also, love this scouting stuff.

You know, leadership is such a subjective requirement. It is very difficult, if not impossible to define in terms of "having been completed". It is the kind of thing that they say about undefinable characteristics: "I cannot tell you what it is, but I can recognize it when I see it."

Buffalo Skipper did not think the PL he mentioned did a good job as a leader. But the PL thought he did a decent job. Either one of them is right, or the other. But to these people themselves they are right.

Can we define some metrics for the requirement of Leadership? I consider this to be in the same category as "Scout Spirit". What does it take before the requirement is completed? Perhaps he did it if his patrol grew in numbers. (No growth, no leadership). Perhaps he did it if he got all his patrol members out on campouts during his tenure. (No attendance, no leadership). Perhaps he did it if he got all his members to advance to first class. (no advancement, no leadership).

I find that when I sit down with a patrol leader, it is most helpful to talk about objectives for the patrol as a whole to shoot for. As objectives for the group, recruitment is good, attendance is good, and advancement is good. I urge the PL to identify the things the patrol can do better, and pursue them. I want him to make some plans to meet the objectives. I check to see if any of the steps he came up with were in fact done. If I can get him to start thinking in these ways, I will have gone a long way to instilling a leadership mentality into him. But there are a hundred things that can cause the objectives to not be met, not the PL's fault.

I think the only reason for denying him the requirement sign off is if he stops attending, stops helping patrol members, stops meetings, just stops. If that happens for more than 2 weeks, I will contact him, and determine if we need a new PL.

For one Eagle court of honor, I got a power point presentation together of the first Eagle scout, Arthur Eldred. I found photos of him in his 1912 uniform the day he had his Eagle COH, of his Eagle medal, his merit badge sash, and a picture of him pinning an Eagle medal on his son years later. Arthur was the first Eagle scout, he won the first award for life saving, and was on hand to welcome Baden Powell when he came to visit in 1912.

My point was that Arthur was just like any kid in my troop. He liked scouting; the camping, the outdoors, the swimming, the accomplishment. He was just doing it in the first years of the BSA.

We have heard that national did a survey of scouts after the original switchback pants came out, and found that the boys thought that shorts that did not come below the knee where not cool. Current styles are to have the shorts come below the knee. So the new switchback pants do that. The new switchback zipper is not below the knee.

In our council, as in many, you will see scouts and scouters mixing and matching new and old uniform pieces. They are all still good. All past uniforms are still "official" uniforms, even the heavy green shirts and red trimmed pants I wore as a kid. You just can't buy them anymore (except maybe on EBAY).

I follow the blog of Jerry Schleining (Scoutmaster Jerry) of the Scoutmaster Minute, and love the descriptions of his troop activities, which usually revolve around a backpacking trip in the mountains of Oregon. He describes his troop as a "backpacking troop". He is fortunate to have such a beautiful rugged mountainous area close at hand.

Here in the southern plains states, we have to travel at least 3 hours by car to get to the nearest mountains, in this case the Ozarks. I love backpacking, did Philmont a few years ago, and urge my troop to do backcountry camping as much as possible. We schedule one or two treks per year. But we have to make due with the area we live in, and take advantage of the camping opportunities we have near at hand. Half of our outings are car camping trips to council camps, where we are free to do scoutcraft activities that we schedule at our annual planning session.

I find it strange that someone would judge troops based on a style of camping. In my humble opinion, a troop should do a bit of everything. As a former scoutmaster put it to me, offer a "full program of scouting." If a troop never goes backpacking, or climbing, or canoeing, or day hiking, or fishing, or whatever, then they ought to do it once every few years, to give the boys exposure to a variety of activities.

Add to this the assumption that the boys, running their program through the PLC, will decide to a large extent where they want to go and what they want to do. As a scoutmaster I can guide them, and perhaps direct them if they have trouble focusing, but I can not and should run the program for them. This weekend we are going to Kansas for the annual Trappers Rendezvous event. Our boys love this event and vote for it year after year. If I tried to steer them away from it, I would have a revolt in the ranks.

Someone above said, if the program needs fixing, then fix it. I have dealt with muddled advancement requirements caused by lax or uninformed scouters (and a few that I caused myself) and I stand aghast at some of the shoddy merit badge events I have seen. We do what we can.

Ok, for the totally inexperienced parent who wants to find a unit, you must first find your local council phone number. Use the Phone book or use this web page:

http://www.scouting.org/LocalCouncilLocator.aspx

Call them and tell them:

1) You are new and want to find a troop for your boy.

2) Get the troop or pack number of 4 or 5 troops or packs in your area along with the units address and phone number of the contact number, either Scoutmaster, Cub master, or person in charge of recruiting.

3) Call these contacts and ask to attend a meeting. Get meeting times and locations. Ask if there are any special events for the local units coming up.

4) Visit. Take your kid. Take note of the size of the unit. Too big? Too small? just right? Are there lots of adult volunteers? Is everyone in uniform? Is there order to the proceeding? Do the boys seem to be having fun?

Ask scout troop leaders:

1) Do you go camping every month?

2) Do the scouts advance regularly and are there Eagle scouts in the troop.

3) What is the patrol method and how do you do it?

4) Do you go to summer camp every year?

To a new leader I would say, read the scoutmasters handbook from cover to cover. Get to know the program. Especially the concepts of the Patrol Method and the Boy Led Troop. And I would encourage anyone starting out to refer to older scoutmaster handbooks, now out of print, but available on sites like EBAY. I got a copy of the 1962 scoutmasters handbook, and marveled at the stuff no longer found in the current version. Then I got the 1942 copy, and marvel at the stuff no longer found in the 1962 version. Knowledge is power.

I think you did the right thing with the stove incident. If I had seen the stove like you did, and asked the PL if all is set with the patrol gear, and heard that answer, I would feel justified in letting them get through that incident by their own wits.

I have found that a troop, though it deals primarily with boys, must make provission to deal with parents as well. This is not to say that we see parents as adversaries, but as partners together to bring about positive growth in the boys. To that end, I suggest that a troop committee person, who is on the same page as you concerning the boy led troop method, be in charge of keeping parents informed, and of educating them about the nature of the BSA program. Unless they were in scouts as kids, parents will have little conception of our aims and our methods. A good troop will impart to them the troops vision of our mission and our ways.

Should the SM do this? NO. Dealing with adults is a job of the committee, so a committee person should be given the job. This person could hold a perents meeting each month or two, to share news and plans about scout outings and the status of the troop. I would have the SM say a few words to them as well, but only a very few. The parents want to know that an adult is in charge, and that he is watching over the boys. I have found that a little communication goes a long way to avert the problems you are having. Tell the stove story, and the lessons you wished for these scouts to have learned. I bet the parents could then tell 20 more on their own sons along the same lines. As long as the parents see that there is a purpose in the boy led organization, they will go along.

Now this assumes that the SM is keeping an eagle eye out for the patrols and the scouts, and spots most of these boy led problems as they are happening. The SM will be in the wrong if he just takes it easy and never observes the troop around him. The SM should observe everything, and then make the decission to sit back and let the consequenses of the boys actions catch up to them (in the bounds of the safety of the scouts, of course).

I have a life scout who came to us as a star scout. He was a tough case, as his parents devorced, then his dad died, and his mom lost her job with the county. He did good the first year, advancing to Life and being elected patrol leader.

Then he kind of went downhill. He started acting up in meetings, throwing rocks at people on campouts, and gaining a bad rep for disrespect in the troop. Unfortunately he is a leader of the pack, and the other boys naturally follow and emulate him.

I sat down with him to discuss his behavior, and he asked me to tell his mother to let him quit scouting. Why, I asked. It seems he has been in scouting since tiger cubs, and has no more interest in it. He wants to do something else, but his mom is intent on him getting Eagle. My advice at the time was to work it out with his mom.

I suspended him for 6 months after summer camp, when his disrespect and rock throwing and general abuse of new scouts got out of hand. I had previously considered his rough past in dealing with him, but at this time I consider him a danger to the troop. His attitude has infected the other boys, and his absense has brought back some degree of normal troop life. But we lost one young scout to his bad behavior, and I almost lost my SPL, who too the brunt of the abuse.

His mom wants him to come back and get Eagle, but I don't see it happening. There would have to be a major tranformation in his life before I would sign off on Scout Spirit for this boy. And I struggle over saying that, as I see no one beyond redemption. I now ask this question: is there a time to let a boy go his way? And can a parent push a son too far down the scouting path and put a distaste for it in the boy?

I have worked with our troop for 9 years, 3 as SM. Our founding SM set up merit badges in troop meetings because that was the practice of the troop he grew up in (Eagle Factory). The boys in our troop new no other way.

I stopped doing that when I got the job. I sat in on one class in our troop on Trucking, and I swear the boys knew no more about the subject after 2 weeks of the parent lecturing than they did before the class. I am not a fan of doing merit badges like the boys have to do school courses. We do one every once in a while when the SPL asks for one. If we do one in the troop, I prefer we do it on a camping trip. We are going to offer Camping MB this way in December. We did Wilderness Survival last year. I would even do one that is more academic on a camping trip, but more one on one with the boys.

In theory scouts are to go to the councilors on the list and do the badges on their own. The MB councilor list should be maintained by the council or district. Troops should keep lists from adult surveys they do. When I took the job, our troop not only did not have a list, but it never entered into anyones mind to prepare one. 3 or 4 registered scouters taught the merit badges for the troop. The council people said to refer to our troops list, since they did not maintain one. Thus it goes.

I have been doing this stuff for 10 years now. I took the basic course back when it was called "Basic Scout Leader Training", and then I took Woodbadge in 2001, the previous course, which I affectionately call "Woodbadge for the 20th Century". I wonder if the BSA will still consider me "Trained", even though I have not been through the updated courses.

Last year I signed up for the Outdoor Leader Skills course, to see if I could gleen any new stuff about the outdoor program, and learn from others things I could present to my scouts. I was told by the course leader that this was the very same "BSLT" course, and that I should not waste my time.

I agree that leaders should be trained, and I don't care if it is mandatory. I would also like for the BSA to come up with some sort of continueing education for Scout leaders, or some sort of refresher courses, so the technique does not dull, and the vision of the organization stays vital.

I, too, love this stuff.

I have heard a rumor that national did a survey of boys and found out that teenagers think shorts that do not reach below the knee are worn mainly by gays. The boys in my troop have expressed this as well. So, the new switchbacks and shorts are supposed to be sized so that they end below the knee. It may be an attempt to get the scouts to actually wear the uniforms.

Our council bookstore has them backordered. I will see it in 2 weeks (at least).

I sleep in a hammock on campouts with a tarp for rain cover. My scouts have asked if they can do that too. A hammock is a one person dwelling. I asked the district director of our district about the official BSA position, and he said there is no such "two person per tent rule" handed down by National.

It seems such rules are generated on the troop level, where a scoutmaster can allow it or prevent it, on the basis of other scout practices and ideals. Is the buddy system good? Do we feel young scouts will feel comradeship if they share a tent? Will it bring the patrol together if the patrol members are paired in a tent? These are our decisions.

I have seen this happen in every scout in my troop (a small troop of 15) who makes it to age 16 and has not yet dropped out. Often it is the job, needed to support the car, but sometimes it is the girl. The relationship of these older teenagers to the troop changes. Sometimes the only reason they sign up for the year is to finish the Eagle project and rank.

I have come to see that this is a natural consequense of the scouts age. If he joined when he was 11 or 12, he has been the program at least 4 years, is probably a life scout, has been on 30 camping trips, gone to summer camp 4 times, probably has been SPL or ASLP, and wonders where all the little kids in the troop have come from. He is looking forward to joining the adult world and working, driving, and dating are a part of that.

I am just glad I can get them back for the project, and I enthusiastically preside over the ECOH when he earns it. Some who are attracted to the rigorous outdoor program our troop cannot provide, I will send to a venture crew. For others, I will give them a call every now and again and ask if they can come to a meeting and teach a skill they know well (but give them a heads up a month in advance). The ones I cant get to come back at all, either for special events or to do the project, are the sad ones.

I did a google search on "eagle project workbook word document" and came up with lots of locations to find the workbook in MS Word format. One entry was here:

http://www.nesa.org/trail/18-936.doc

On the google page, I right clicked the link and used the save target as option to download the document.

You can open the document with MS Word, and fill out the form. You should be able to insert pictures, diagrams, text, and anything else you can insert into a word document.

I do this with my scouts, so they can email me the workbook and I can comment on it with them over the phone or via email. When it is passable, they can print it out and take it to the district Eagle Project review meeting for approval. Later they can update the document for the eagle application (which I also found online).

Computers are wonderful tools. But the content is only as good as the author.

A few years back at a council camporee with all the area units, the boys of a certain troop started running through the campsites, taking down troop flags and running off. It seems that this troops scoutmaster remembered a game years back where boys were encouraged to steal the flags from other troops at gatherings like this. So he unleashed his boys to go "play the game".

Unfortunately on one else in the council had ever heard of this "game". I don't think the council professionals knew of it. So the boys made a ruckus and got a bunch of scouters mad at them. It tool some time for the dust to settle, and the old scoutmaster of these boys was dumbfounded that this was not a scheduled event.

I wonder if they did any other stuff like this in "ye olden days."

A few years back at a council camporee with all the area units, the boys of a certain troop started running through the campsites, taking down troop flags and running off. It seems that this troops scoutmaster remembered a game years back where boys were encouraged to steal the flags from other troops at gatherings like this. So he unleashed his boys to go "play the game".

Unfortunately on one else in the council had ever heard of this "game". I don't think the council professionals knew of it. So the boys made a ruckus and got a bunch of scouters mad at them. It tool some time for the dust to settle, and the old scoutmaster of these boys was dumbfounded that this was not a scheduled event.

I wonder if they did any other stuff like this in "ye olden days."

I have a troop of 15 boys. That means I get 10 boys on meeting nights, and 6 to 8 on campouts. That is pretty consistent. It makes it difficult to do patrol method activities, as often we can get 2 members of a patrol show up for a campout. I would love to have a troop of 25 to 30 scouts.

Someone suggested I send Den Chiefs to the packs to help with recruiting. What I found was that the boys who were interested came back and told me that they had no way to get to pack meetings, since the packs held den meetings right after school, and my scouts had no way to get there, since both Mom and Dad work during the day.

I don't think many of the Scoutmasters in my district have had much success using Den Chiefs. They tell me the best way they found to attact Webelos was to hold an activity badge fair and invite 4 or 5 Webelos dens to come to it. Troop members or adults teach the activity badge requirements and the Webelos remember having a good experience with that troop. I think this will work for the first 2 or 3 troops that try it, and then as most troops try it, fewer Webelos dens will participate.

Any other ideas on how to recruit Webelos?

In my council, the BSA lifeguard course takes place at summer camp (an all week proposition) or at a 12 week course at a high school pool. I took it in 2003. When it expired, I asked about getting it renewed, and no one knew how it could be done except to take the course again. No one mentioned doing a retest.

How does this happen in other parts of the country?