emb021

OA Elections are set down in the official OA manuals, I think specifically in the Guide for Officers and Advisors. The Lodge Rules (aka Bylaws), would only specify when they occur.

To be eligible, a boy must have earned First Class Scout, have completed 15 days/nights of camping, 6-7 of which must be in a long term BSA camp (this can be summer camp, high adventure program, jambo, etc), and scoutmaster approval.

Regardless of WHEN the Lodge holds their elections (some go to the units, some do it at a summer camp or camporee), the LODGE (more specifically the election team), should be contacting the troops to arrange this. If your unit was never contacted by the Lodge, something is wrong! There should be no deadline for conducting the elections, so long as its prior to when the lodge holds their Ordeal. The Lodge adviser should have corrected this issue and got an election team at your unit. Something sounds wrong here. Most Lodge advisers I know (and I know several) would not allow this to happen. Sounds like there is something more going on. If you're not getting a good response, go to the Scout Executive. He has the final say.

My understand (based on speaking people who are on the National Committee and connected with the National committee) is that:

* the Sea Scout Manual is actually subsidized. That is how the book is fairly inexpensive for its size/binding/etc.

* while there has been work on making a new Skipper Manual (I have a soft copy of what is supposed to be the next edition of it) and a Crew Leader Manual, due to costs, these will probably NOT be published.

* due to size and costs, what is being talked about (MIND YOU, this is just TALK), is to reduce the size of the Sea Scout Manual, and move a lot of it to a CD-ROM that would be included with the book. This CD-ROM would thus contain the Skipper & Crew Leader materials, etc. No idea when/if this will occur.

"No more than 3 rows of knots for WB staffers??? What's the point of that? Sheesh."

I'm not aware that they are changing that rule. AFAIK, WB staffers are supposed to have 'stripped down' uniforms (only wearing the world crest, american flag, CSP, WB office patch, and that's about it). If this is changing, haven't heard it.

In Sea Scouting, adults are only supposed to wear 2 rows. No idea why, as there is no restriction on naval personally on the number of ribbons.

I have no idea if National is thinking about getting rid of the Venture Patrol. Many have thought that. Some think it will come. I tried asking the people in the Boy Scout Booth at National Jamboree, but all were volunteers and had no idea. (almost as bad as the response I got from them at the 2001 Jamboree, when they had no idea what the Venture Patrol was!)

National has recently (without telling anyone) taken away the use of the Venture/Varsity letter and pins. Now only Varsity Scout Teams can use it (and Venture could since 1989!).

See my letter to the editor in the September issue of Scouting Magazine. The Venture letter and pins was a great part of the Venture program. Now the only 'special' think that Venture Patrols have is the "Venture" strip.

One almost has to wonder...

Actually, Sea Scouts have had a requirement for Ordinary since that award was created in the 1920s to:

"Recruit a new member for your ship and follow through until the new member is registered and formally admitted."

Dana-

Because Sea Scouts are part of Venturing, every Sea Scout Ship is a Venturing Crew (a special type of venturing crew). This means that in addition to the Sea Scout program, they can do anything within the Venturing Program, including earning any of the Venturing Awards.

As to your question.

In Sea Scouts, the council-level is called "Squadron". "Flotilla" is the Region.

All Sea Scout Ships in a council are part of the Squadron (if such is organizied), and should be sending an adult representative to the Squadron meetings. Other Venturing Crews, if they are NOT Ships, really shouldn't be attending. As some of us noted before, if you have an "aquatic Venturing Crew", why not just register as a Sea Scout Ship and be done with it??

A problem is that some Sea Scout events are limited to ONLY Sea Scout Ships. Some may be open to Venturing Crews. It really depends. Sometimes you will have Squadrons who have Sea Scout only events, and then have events open to other Venturing Crews. This allows the Sea Scouts to do stuff as Sea Scouts, and other times work with other Venturing Crews.

"Thanks for the information. Our Scout Store has never had anyone request devices, but she is going to order some for us. And I'm very happy to find out that my son was not wearing his knot on his Boy Scout uniform all year in error! "

Really? That's suprising. The knot devices are also used by scouters to indicate they've received multiple awards from different programs and the like. I wear a couple on my uniform for that purpose.

"Are the devices like the Web activity pins or arrowpoints? I hope they stay on well and that the backs don't try to fall off like other pins. "

They are very small. About the size of an eraser head. I've never had a problem with the backing poping off mine. But, they are cheap. So I have several extras just in case.

Yeah, well, thank National.

Those of us involved in Venturing since day 1 (August, 1998) have been dealing with the confusion National created. Telling people to stop saying "Venture Crew" or using the term "Venture Scouts", etc.

I wasn't too happy they were going to call Venturing units "Crews", as I knew it was going to be confused with "Venture Crew", which were renamed "Venture Patrol". I wished (and even proposed) that they use a different term.

There have been rumors for some time that National was/is going to get rid of the Venture Patrol. Hasn't happened yet. But even then you will have people using the phrase 'Venture'.

Madkin-

Again, you are mixing terms. "Venture" and "Venturing" are TWO separate programs within the BSA. Which are you asking about???

"Venture" is an optional program for Boy Scout Troops to form a Venture Patrol from their older boys (13+) to do high adventure/sports stuff apart from the troop. This forum is not about them.

"Venturing" is BSA's co-ed program for 14-21 youth. Venturing Crews are forms in one of 5 speciality areas: Outdoor/High Adventure, Sports, Arts/Hobbies, Youth Ministries, and Sea Scouts. Venturing was formed in 1998 when the BSA split off the non-career Explorer Posts to form Venturing. Exploring is now part of Learning for Life and no longer part of the BSA. This forum is about this program.

Its too bad your council doesn't seem to be supporting Venturing. The council shop should have the green venturing shirts in stock, the various Venturing literature items, etc. I would hope that Venturing Crews are attending Scout Shows to show off what they do, and that Venturers are being asked to serve on Wood Badge staff as the WB youth staff (needed during the 2nd weekend of WB).

Also, read your Scouting magazine. Several issues in the past few years have run articles on Venturing.

Madkins- LOVE your enthusiasm, but please use the correct terms.

This is the Venturing program, not the venture program. Youth in Venturing are Venturers, not Venture Scouts.

Not sure what you mean by "I have NO idea what it can do for our unit". Venturing Crews are separate units from Boy Scout Troop, or Packs or Teams. Its not a part of Boy Scout Troop, but a separate group. What they can do its keep your older youth IN Scouting, if not in your troop, and these older youth can return and help out your unit, but on their terms, not yours.

Please check out the Venturing section of the National website. Are there no Venturing Crews in your council you can speak with, or being involved in Venturing at the district/council levels?

"Can aquatic interest Venturing Crews be affiliated with Sea Scout Ship

and do a similar program to what a ship does. Maybe something like

seamanship interest or mariner interest. These crews be marine interest but attend regattas and Sea Scout events and could they be a

part of a fleet, squadron, or flotilla , as well as part of the district? "

Uh, why don't you just have your aquatic-interest VenturING Crew just BE a Sea Scout Ship??? Every Sea Scout Ship is a Venturing Crew.

Two comments.

" The secret - be open minded to "Crew" activities and have an active calendar of events. We are chartered as a High Adventure / Outdoor Crew but not all our activities are "Outdoor" events. This was hard for some of the Advisors that felt that all activities needed to be "Outdoor" if we were chartered that way. "

The specialty is just your 'main focus', not a restriction on what you do. There is nothing wrong with a HA/Outdoor Crew doing the occasional social event, fundraiser, service project. It only because a problem if you become a purely social group when you're supposed to be a HA/Outdoor crew.

"stealing boys"

Many of the venturing leaders I know say that they ask scoutmasters for the boys that dropped out (or have not been around alot). Thus they aren't stealing any boys, just bringing back to scouting those who left. Same thing works to recruiting girls lost to girl scouts.

"We had created a CD with information for them which included four sample tickets covering Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, Venturing, and Commissioner Services. These were to be used as a sample to help the TG working with patrols in guiding them with their tickets. Also, we included a breakdown of each day and the duties of the troop guide. It made a big difference in 2004 and I think it will make a greater difference in 2006. "

This is something you should share with other WBers! See if you can get the people who run www.woodbadge.org to put this material on-line.

I know that my first time on staff (as a troop guide), that the ticket process was very frustrating for me. I had done WB under the old Boy Scout Leader WB, and so the ticket process was different. I understood it was 5 item that make up your ticket, but I was frustrated by the amound to training I was given, and would have loved to have examples for both me and my patrol.

Dancin

"On money raising BSA Vs GSUSA. The GSUSA has huge money contributor in the cookie sales. Our popcorn sales can't even come close. Thus BSA dues must be higher to compensate. "

AFAIK, Girl Scout cookie sales fund National, Councils, and units. Boy Scout popcorn sales only goes to councils and units. Nothing goes to BSA National.

"I am in a new council (well, new to me, that is) that doesn't have a strong Venturing program. I spoke with the DE of my District, and he said they haven't been able to excite local kids about it."

My experience is that if you spend the time promoting the program, you can find many kids who are excited about it. I have to wonder what they were doing that wasn't successful. Where they really promoting the Venturing program, or someone's incorrect perception of the program?

FYI-

There is no such organization as the "GSA". The group you are referring to is the Girl Scouts of the USA, abreviated GSUSA. Do not make the mistake of referring to them as 'GSA'.

While an interesting review (I have been planning on getting the book myself, anyway), I should point out that the BSA is most certainly NOT a 'Christian institution'. It is open to people of many faiths. At the Jamboree, there were booth for the Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim (2 different groups, in fact), and many other faiths. And the recognized religious awards include Hindu, Shinto, and other non-judeochristian faiths.

Uh, which program are you refering to? Venture and Venturing are two different programs in the BSA.

Venture is an option in-troop program (see both the Boy Scout & Scoutmaster handbooks) for boys 13 and older. They are formed into a Venture Patrol to do high adventure activities on their own without the rest of the troop.

Venturing is the BSA's co-ed program for youth 14-21. Youth are formed into unit called Venturing Crews. Each Crew will have their own speciality in one of the 5 areas of Venturing: Outdoors/High Adventure, Sports, Youth Ministries, Arts/Hobbies, or Sea Scouts.

Councils & Districts can support Venturing Crews by learning about the Venturing program and encouraging chartered organizations to form them. Because of the flexiblity of Venturing, pre-existing groups can become Venturing Crews and take advantage of what Venturing has to offer. For instance, a church's youth ministry group can become a Venturing Crew. Or a yacht club wants to form a Sea Scout Ship for their youth, etc.

Sometimes Venturing Crews form out of Boy Scout Troops, usually if there are a number of older boys who are tired of the 'same old stuff' in their troop, and want to do more challenging stuff with other older youth. Too often, Scoutmasters resist this because they think you are 'stealing' their boys, etc. Sometimes you can find scoutmaster (or assistants) who want to do the more challenging stuff, too.

I recommend you figure which of these programs you are interested in, and get the appropriate literature and training.

For those who care.

I made some inquiries about the claimed changes to Sea Scout Uniforms.

Per the National Commodore herself, there have been no changes to the uniforms beyond what exists in the current edition of the Sea Scout Manual (#33239C, 2002 printing).

I do not know the source of such information, but it appears to be spurious.

All-

This weekend, I took a look at my OA materials to see what I could regarding OA elections within Explorer units.

this is what I found.

OA National stopped OA elections in Explorer Posts in 1991! (this per the official OA history book, 3rd edition).

The requirements over the years for Explorers to be elected into the OA changed. They ALWAYS required the same camping experience as scouts, but other requirements where:

Until 1959, Explorers had to have earned Apprentice.

During the 60s, Explorers didn't have to achieve any rank.

After going co-ed, only MALE Explorers could join the OA, and they had to have earned First Class Scout within a troop. Until the late 80s, only MALE Explorers could vote in OA elections in Posts.

Another thing I found out (both in reading thru my OA Handbooks and the OA History), is that the OA's current claim that 'they have always been part of the Boy Scout Division' is nonsense. The current Boy Scout Program Division did not come into existance until 1971! Before that the National OA Committee was under the National Camping Committee, NOT the National Boy Scout Committee.

MB

"Though I'll probably regret drawing myself into this, I feel the need to provide the following quote from http://www.seascout.org/

"The content of these pages is unofficial and may not reflect the official position of the National Sea Scouting Committee of the Boy Scouts of America" "

Actually, the site is pretty official. The people who maintain it are part of the National committee.

I know that the Southern Region use it as their official site for Southern Region Sea Scouting info, such as Sea Badge Courses, etc.

>Heck Mike lots of units do things wrong, there are >Venturing crews today that hold OA elections even though >they are not eligible. I was an Explorer in the 70s and a >Scoutmaster in the 80s and Explorers were not eligible >for OA elections then.

I wasn't referring to what some units may be doing in violation of written policy. OA Operations Update 98-10 and 99-2 clearly says NO to elections in Venturing Crews.

OA Policy did allow for elections of Explorers AS Explorers. I am uncertain when it was dropped, but it lasted atleast until Exploring went co-ed in 1971, and I had hear it was still going on until the 80s when OA National said stop.

My reprint edition of the 1948 OA Handbook states that any boy involved in a Senior Program (Explorer Scouts, Air Scouts, Sea Scouts) was eligible for election into the OA if they had earned the first rank of their program. (uncertain if that was Apprentice or Ordinary/Observer/Woodman).

My 1959 edition stated that ANY Explorer, regardless of rank, could be elected into OA. (at that point Explorers had no advancement other then Eagle, Air/Sea Explorers still had their advancement programs).

I would have to look at my other OA handbooks to see what they say.

Some co-ed Scouting facts:

BSA in 1969 allowed Girl Scouts & Camp Fire Girls to be participants in Explorer Posts.

In 1971, BSA then took Exploring co-ed. So the BSA has had to deal with the 'issue' of a co-ed program for 14-21 youth for over 30 years.

Also, in 1976, Camp Fire Girls went co-ed. They later changed their names to Camp Fire Boys & Girls, and currently are Camp Fire USA.

"Mike, so you've been putting up this arguement based on what you remember from the past? The new national standard has the bugs gone as are the youth dress blue uniform. I believe the National Commodore wants all ships uniformed uniformly. So, we've done it, and you would surely recommend to any new unit to stay with the current guidelines. I would anyway. "

It's not based on what I "remember from the past", but from what I know from the past based on the documents, and from first-hand information on those who were involved in the programs.

If the National Committee has changed the uniforms again past what's in the current SSM, they have NOT passed this information on to anyone. I know 2 council commodores and the regional commodore. They've said nothing (2 of those 3 are on the National committee). I attended Sea Badge last year (2004) and nothing was said about any changes.

"By the way I cannot find the term "cracker jack" or "chambray" uniform anywhere in the handbook? "

Those are unoffical terms that most in Sea Scouting would understand. Chambray refers to the light blue denim work uniforms. 'crackerjack' is the common term to refer to the traditional enlisted sailor uniforms.

"Sorry Mike but your ship was guided off course. "Now, over on the Sea Scouts website (www.seascouts.org), we see this... "

Typo on my part. I was refering to the www.seascout.org site, the Official Sea Scout website.

> It does however have a detailed history of Sea Scouting >and Exploring/Venturing and you you will see that my >timeline was accurate.

>

>I suggest that to maintain the quality of accuracy you >desire in your website that you consider using official >BSA resources rather than other unofficial web sites.

Uh, if you had bothered to check my website, you will find that I cite the MANY BSA-published manuals and works that I used for my information. Those published by others that I have used are based on other BSA-published works. My third source of information is on-line conversations with individuals who have had first hand experience with Sea Scouts, Exploring (in its many incarnations), and the like.

None of my information is based on 'unofficial' websites.

>I must have some of the earlier Crew 697 knots. I felt >the colors were just a bit off, and that the dimensions >were off from Ofiicial Supply Division stuff.

Yeah, the first bunch weren't quite there. Their stuff now is fine.

>There used to be a group listed on the old Sea Scout site >named 'Why Knot' and they seemed to have a full >compliment of colors and knots, but sadly, I haven't been >able to actually contact them.

I never was able to contact them. Seemed the person doing it didn't quite have the time to respond, etc.

The knots at the Ship's Store are great (and cheap) if you're looking for white/navy knots. But I don't care for their Sea Badge knot.

>And, I agree, Knots like the Youth and Adult Religious >awards, the DAM, and others not on a 'uniform' backing >color, shouldn't be altered to match.

Yup. If its not on tan, don't change it. DAM and Distinguished commissioner shouldn't be changed. Changing the Community Org knot (gold on purple) gives you the Spurgeon knot (gold on green) and special use knots if you do it on white. BIIIIG mistake on their part.