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From the National website.

[by the way, there are no org charts at the National site.]

The "About Venturing" page lists the 5 areas of Venturing: high adventure, sports, arts, hobbies, religious life, and Sea Scouting. [sea Scouts is just one of the 5!]

National Youth Cabinet is composed of a National President and 4 Regional Presidents, all wearing green Venturing uniforms. The National Chief Boatswain is just one member of the Cabinet, not the boss. (that's the National President)

The "Sea Scouts" page says: "Sea Scouts is a specialized segment of the Venturing program".

Now, over on the Sea Scouts website (www.seascouts.org), we see this.

On the page about the National Sea Scout Committee Mission Statement, we learn that:

"The National Sea Scouting Commodore is appointed by the National Venturing Chair " [Huh. If the National Venturing Committee is below the National Sea Scout Committee, how can this be???]

Now, while I do know of some Sea Scout leaders who wish that Sea Scouts were separate from Venturing or that Sea Scouts was in charge of Venturing, I know of few would would claim that this is so.

>but the Book is copyright 2002 and has not yet been >updated to include the changes that were made in 2003 by >the national Sea Scout Committee with dropped the youth >dress blues and removed the "bugs" from the the navy >cover.

Then how are people supposed to know about these 'changes'?

And bad idea about dropping the "bugs". They are there as part of the various items needed on a Sea Scout uniform to avoid confusion with Naval uniforms. Yet another unneed and poor change in the Sea Scout Uniforms that Commander Keane put in place in the 20s. Like to stupid dropping of the unit numbers, which most Ships still use.

>Just as you have Varsity Scouts in the Varsity program, >you have Venturing Scouts in the Venturing Program. The >term Venturers is also correct. I am not convinced that >this merits debate.

Sorry, but the term "venturing scout" is not correct and never was. Venturers is the only correct term. Please show us when in any BSA literature this term is used.

>You are not the only person with old handbooks, and rest >assured there are ample websites that have misinformation >on them.

True, but my site is not one of them. I have yet to have anyone point out any errors.

>Explorers began in 1949(prior to that it was officially >the Senior Scout Program) and was part of the Boy Scout >Division, but EXPLORING began in the BSA in 1959 and at >that time became a separate division of the BSA, 47 years >after Sea Scouting began.

Sorry, all incorrect.

Sea Scouts were in their OWN "Sea Scout Division". This Division became the "Senior Scout Division" in 1934. This Division later became the "Explorer Division" in 1949. This Division later became the "Exploring Division" in 1959. This is all covered in the literature I cite at my website.

>When initially begun around 1915 and PRIOR to it being >incorporated officially by the BSA, the OA as an >independent program did allow Sea Scouts. However after >incorporation into the BSA as a fully endorsed Boy Scout >Program in 1948 it required dual registration.

Sorry, again incorrect. I have OA handbooks from that time. They state that ANY Explorer may join the OA back in the 40s/50s. No dual registration. In fact, Explorer Posts were still holding OA elections until some time in the 80s.

>I hope this helps to clarify things.

Give correct info and it might...

>I have a bunch now from Crew 697.

>

>Craig Murray's look very nice, too.

>

>Have you noticed any difference in quality between the two?

Initially, I found Craig's to be better of any of the repro green knots. The earlier stuff from Crew 697 weren't that good. Since then, they've improved and I don't have a problem with either. I find Crew 697's Sea Badge knots better then what I've seen from others, and use theirs on my uniforms.

Yeash. You have a lot of misinformation

>1. Venturing Scouts is also correct

Sorry, no, it has never been. Please cite your source. The program is called "Venturing", youth members are "Venturers", units are "Venturing Crews". BSA literature only uses those terms.

>2. Sea Scouting was around for 47 years BEFORE Exploring. >Here is something I recently learned Venturing is >technically under Sea Scouting (as was Exploring) not the >other way around. While the entire division is called >Venturing, the Sea Scouting coordinator is a member of >the executive board in your council and at National and >the Venturing coordinator is a sub committee position >under Sea Scouting.

Wow. That is a LOT of incorrect information.

Sea Scouts were established in 1912. Explorer Scouts in 1924. Were do you get 47 years? In 1935, all the 'older boy' programs were merged into Senior Scouts. In 1949, Senior Scouts became Explorers and Sea Scouts were renamed Sea Explorers.

Sea Scouts are PART of Venturing. The National Sea Scout Committee is a SUB Committee of the National Venturing Committee. The National Sea Scout Commodore is a Member of the National Venturing Committee because of this. Regional/Area Sea Scout Committees (if they exist) are SUB Committees of Regional/Area Venturing Committees. Per "Here's Venturing", the Council Sea Scout Commodore is appointed by the Council Venturing Chair.

>If you check out your council By-laws as well as the list >of council officers in the insignis guide you will see >that Venturing is not there but Sea Scouting is.

The absense of insignia is not proof. The National/Regional/Area Venturing Committees wear the same Committee patches as everyone else. The youth Presidents wear specially made patches that aren't shown in the Guide.

I have NO idea the source of your incorrect info.

>3. Don't know where you are getting your whites but the >navy issue as well as the the version from the Sea Scout >Store is a slit pocket on the youth White uniform not a >flapped one. Program strips have always gone ABOVE the >pocket not on the flap so I am unsure as to why you even >brought that up.

Uh, I'm an adult. My whites (and tans) do have pocket flaps.

>4. Even in the past decades, according to the history of >the OA, an Explorer or Sea Scout had to hold dual >membership in a scout troop in order to become an OA >member.

Sorry, no. No idea the source of this misinformation. I have copies of old OA handbooks. Explorers (including Sea Scouts) could be elected into the OA without needing to be dual registered (and if they did, they'd join as a Boy Scout, not an Explorer).

Little bit of personal advise. I have a large personal library of scouting literature and history. I maintain a website devoted to the history of the BSA's older boy programs, including venturing, sea scouts, explorers, etc. I advice you to get your facts straight.

Michael Brown

(PS, for those that might care, here is my site: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Falls/8826)

Again, multiple comments.

* While the 'official' org charts do not set down the position of a Council Venturing Committee (as I said, most org charts you do see have the district support Venturing at that level from the existing camping, advancement, training, etc committees), MANY councils are seeing the wisdom in doing so and setting them up. Some of these councils may have already existing Sea Scout Committees, and ideally they will work together. Two of the councils I work with have them (I serve as the Vice-Chair in one, and a member of the committe in the other). I wear the "Council Committee" patch on my shoulder and green uniforms.

* Sea Scout Uniforms. I do not have my copy of the current SSM. AFAIK, the National uniform is ONLY mandated for Regional/National events. Use of Coast Guard-based uniforms are due to the fact that this was ok in the past (2-3 years ago). I've seen the Southern Region Commodore wearing them... Also, please use the correct terms. There is no 'dress white' in Sea Scouts. Youth wear: chambray blue work uniforms, crackerjack whites, and crackerjack blues. Adults wear: summer tan, summer white, dress blue.

*I have no idea what a "Venture coordinator" is (Venture is not Venturing) or a "National Representative". I have no idea of the source of "Bob White's" claim that National shows the Venturing committee under the Sea Scout committee. Just not so. ALSO, there ARE Venturing Officers at National, Regional, and Council levels. They don't have special insignia shown in the Insignia Guide. There is a National Cabinet of youth officers made of a National President, 4 Regional Presidents, and the National Chief Boatswain. SOME Regionals have Regional Boatswains, and SOME Areas may have Area Venturing Presidents and maybe Area Boatswains. SOME councils, if they have organized Venturing Officer Associations &/or Sea Scout Committees will have Council VOA Presidents and Council Boatswains.

Check out the National Venturing Cabinet site here: http://www.nationalventuringcabinet.org/index.html

Also, there are (in some areas), National/Regional/Area Venturing Committees, and in some cases Sea Scout Committees at those levels.

However, the Venturing side uses the standard National/Regional/Area Committee patches. They never developed special patches just for Venturing at those levels. Sea Scouts have had their own insignia & structure since the 20s, but this was never developed for Exploring (Venturing predesssor). So don't use the existance/absence of special insignia as proof that such a structure does/does not exist.

Sure!.

My sources are-

Craig Murray: http://www.sageventure.com/venturing/knots.htm

(has a small selection, plus some nice additional items)

Venturing Crew 697: http://www.geocities.com/venturing697/crew.html

(don't agree with some of the knots they make. Some should NOT be made on green, but they make a wide range and very nice, too)

I've used both, and have never had a problem.

"Just for Clarification to a privious posters comment...The reason the insignia Guide says that Sea Scouts cannot Wear the OA pocket Flap patch is that

1) Sea Scouts are not eligible for OA mebership (just like other Venturing scouts)."

FYI- there is no such thing 'Venturing scouts'. They are Venturers.

ALSO, Sea Scouts WERE eligible for OA membership. For decades, Explorers (which Sea Scouts were part of) could elect their members into the OA.

"and 2) Sea Scout uniforms don't have pocket flaps!!!"

Uh, my white and tan sea scout uniforms do! The absense of pocket flaps on the youth uniforms is no barrier to wearing the patch. They still wear the Sea Scout strip even if there is no right pocket to wear it above.

A few comments.

* Sea Scouts are part of Venturing, not the other way around. The literature that shows Council Commodores part of the Council Exec Board (which is true in most councils that have them), but not the Council Venturing Chair mainly came from the Sea Scout people, not National Venturing. As I pointed out, the National Sea Scout Committee is a SUB-Committee of the National Venturing Committee. Most of the org charts from National Venturing give NO proviso for a Council Venturing Chair or the like! They expect Venturing to be supported from the districts alongside Cub/Boy Scouting. Sadly, this isn't helping the program, so most councils are setting up Council Venturing Committees to drive the program, and be advisors to the Council Venturing Officers Associations.

* Ships, like Crews, can decide what uniform they want. They are NOT required to have the Official National Sea Scout Uniform, BUT, if they attend Regional/National events, they WILL be required to. And actually, they aren't that expensive. But most Ships start off with t-shirts or the like, and work to get the uniforms.

* However, for a Sea Scout Ship to be such, they should be using the official Sea Scout program (officer structure, advancement, etc). If they aren't, then they're really not a Sea Scout Ship, but just a Venturing Crew with an aquatic focusm, right!?!

* These are the Sea Scout Uniforms. Youth wear uniforms based on enlisted naval personal, adult naval officer:

Youth- work chambray blue uniforms

navy blue 'crackerjacks' (dress navy for winter)

white 'crackerjacks' (dress white for summer)

Adult- work summer tan

navy winter dress blue suits

white summer uniforms

My experience down south is most adults have the white summer uniforms and maybe work tan. Rarely winter blues. Youth have usually white crackerjacks or work blues. Some ships put the youth in whites similiar to the adults. Pretty much never see the navy crackerjacks. Also, you see some in coast guard style uniforms.

Michael Brown

While I am not opposed to a 'Venturing honor society', I don't see what purpose the CoD serves that isn't already covered by the Council Venturing Leadership Award and Council Venturing Officers Association.

Most of the people promoting the CoD seem reluctant to have it serve any purpose beyond 'you're a great Venturer, you're now part of the CoD, but we don't do anything beyond that'.

MB

"Did the BSA issue official knots on Venturing Green again? Or are you referring to non-BSA issue insignia?

No that I will split hairs, I have a Scouters Trainign Award, James E. West Fellowship, and Eagle Scout knot on one of my Venture Shirts that are in Venture Green, but not anywhere near official issue. "

Nope. National still doesn't make them on green. I get my green knots from two sources, and recommend them to others.

Also, they are not 'Venture shirts' or 'Venture Green'. Rememeber, Venture is another program.

Michael Brown

"You know, and I know that the top button is supposed to remain unbutton when wearing the neckerchief under the collar. So help me convince Nephew to leave his undone. He doesn't think it looks right and absolutely insists on wearing it buttoned....this from a kid who has only worn a tie twice in his life. "

Someone needs to educate 'Nephew' on how to wear shirts. As you point out, unless you are wearing a tie, the top button is left unbutton. Show him the pictures in the scout handbook and magazines.

"Also - what are the feelings wearing the bolo instead of the Troop scarf? Even as a Cub Scout he liked wearing the bolo as a change to his rank scarf. His Troop gives the Troop Scarf after 3 months of membership, so I had bought him the Boy Scout bolo which he still wears often. "

Personally prefer it. I've never been a big fan of neckerchiefs. I only wear one when I have to, usually the Wood Badge one, nowadays. When I was a scout, I got a collared shirt and wore a bolo tie. (this was in the days when kids wore a shirt with a v-neck, no colar, and neckerchief.

Michael Brown

"I understood Venturing to be part of the Sea Scout Program."

NO. Sea Scouting is part of Venturing, not the other way around. Sea Scouting is one of the 5 'specialty areas' of Venturing, along with Outdoor, Sports, Arts/Hobbies, and Youth Ministries. The National Sea Scout Committee is a sub-committee of the National Venturing Committee.

Being part of Venturing means that all Sea Scout Ships are a special kind of Venturing Crew, and all Sea Scouts (and their leaders) are members of the Venturing program and participate in Venturing program elements (advancement, training, etc).

Michael Brown

Uniforming.

Actually, like Venturing, you are not required to obtain a Sea Scout uniform. Most of the ships I am aware of in my area only use the uniforms for formal occasions (ie meetings), and go with t-shirts/shorts while boating.

Actually, there are 3 Sea Scout youth uniforms:

* light blue work uniforms (dungaree/chambray)

* white crackerjack uniforms (summer whites for formal occasions)

* navy crackerjack uniforms (winter navies for formal occasions).

Most ships here in Florida have their youth either have the light blue work uniforms or white crackerjack uniforms. Some have the kids use a white pilot shirt similiar to what the adults wear instead. I've also see other things, like coast guard style uniforms and the like.

In Sea Scouting, you will pretty much ONLY be required to be in full/complete sea scout uniforms at regional/national sea scout events.

Get the Sea Scout Manual. It will explain the uniforms and the insignia. Others have given the resources for getting uniforms. I HIGHLY recommend the Ship's Store. They are a source for sea scout insignia for youth & adults that you can't get from National.

I will say that getting Sea Scout uniforms is WAY cheaper then getting BSA uniforms...

Michael Brown

FYI-

Regardless of the toughness of the Ranger Award, the Silver Award IS the highest Venturing Award, and was designed such that any Venturer in any Crew could earn it.

The Ranger Award is a 'specialty' award, aimed at those Venturers involved in outdoor/high adventure crews/activities. It's counterparts are the Quest (Sports/Physical Fitness) and Trust (Youth Ministries). ANY Venturer can earn ANY of these, but by the nature of the award, are aimed at the Venturer who is very interested in these particular areas, and is hopefully involved in a crew with that speciality.

It is for these reasons that the Silver Award has a knot and the other 3 do not and will not have a knot.

Michael Brown

All-

It has clearly been stated in writing in the Boy Scout Requirements book and the Advancement Committee Guidelines booklet that any male Venturer under 18 who has earned atleast First Class may continue earning the Boy Scout Rank Awards and Eagle Palms.

ALSO, please get the terminology correct. There are NO "Venture Crews" in the BSA. They are Venturing Crews

Michael Brown

meamemg-

Realize that those comments are addressed at the kids whose sole reason to be in scouts is to get Eagle, and nothing more. Anything that gets in the way of getting Eagle, they avoid (I've even met a few kids that didn't want to join the OA because it would delay them in getting their Eagle, and these are kids who are 13/14 year olds). And typically, once they've achieved that goal, they are gone. Getting Eagle was their only reason for being there.

The worst of these are the ones who cut corners (many times with the assistance of their parents) and don't really achieve Eagle, but have all the paperwork done. The "Paper Eagles".

Most kids realize that scouting has many 'mountain-top experiences', of which Eagle is only one along side OA/Vigil, Philmont, Jamporee, etc. Being a well-rounded scout means taking part in many of them, and yes, hopefully achieving Eagle.

Most people use the term "paper Eagle" to refer to boys who are Eagle on paper. They got all the paperwork in (blue cards, etc.), but they aren't an Eagle in were it counts: in their hearts and minds, and rarely have even the basic scouting skills down. Typically, if one looks closer, you might find out that mommie/daddie made sure all the paperwork got done, even to the point of signing off on merit badges its doubtful he really earned.

The issue of boys who are working for Eagle, and then quit afterwards is a different issue. Typically they (usually thanks to their parents) see Eagle as the goal, not a point on their journey. They are usually trying to get Eagle because it 'help them get into school', 'get them a scholarship', or the like.

Venturing uniform policy (stated in both the Venturer Handbook and Insignia Guide) is that Venturers (who are 14-21) can wear the Eagle patch and AOL patch. They are NOT required to wear the Eagle/AOL knots at 18. Personally, I prefer ALL Venturers wear the knots for these 2 awards, but they CAN wear the awards.

In Venturing, you are a youth until you are 21!

SFMike-

I will agree that the commissioner was wrong to butt in at a court of honor to conduct a uniform inspection. It IS one of the duties of the unit commissioner to run a unit uniform inspection, but it should be done at a unit meeting, ideally with some advanced warning to give the boys the chance to correct issues, etc. And his inspection should be done in the spirit of pointing out errors that many mistakenly make (missing backing on service stars, etc), then in nitpicking things that really don't matter (last year's quality unit patch).

However, you son was incorrect. Regardless of his 'logic', the Insignia Guide has been clear for YEARS that the World Conservation Award is worn on the right pocket. It is not and never has been a valid replacement for the World Crest. His reaction to being called on his inproper uniform was also incorrect.

It is unfortunate that you and your son don't seem to understand the concept of a uniform. Being the owner of it does NOT give one the right to wear it 'any way they see fit'. Uniforming means wearing it properly, with the appropriate insignia in the correct locations. This is why we have an Insigna Guide and Uniform Inspection Sheet (and commissionrs are usually expected to yearly do a uniform inspection). This has nothing to do with so-called "uniform police".

The World Conservation Award has a specific place on the uniform, and its NOT to be worn in place of the World Crest.

Your son also need to learn the Scout Law, specifically "Courteous" (not being a smart mouth to people) and "Obedient" (following the uniform rules). I hope he's not the kind of person who things the "rules don't apply to me".

Most improper uniforming I've found is do to either ignorance or misinformation. This is one of the few times I've heard of improper uniforming due to arrogance.

I hope that if you are a scout leader you're not teaching your scouts these sorts of poor behavior.

Chris would wear:

The Eagle Patch and AOL patch.

The Hornaday Award knot

Honor Award knot

Venturing Silver Award knot

VLA knot

Ranger bar

Explorer Silver Award knot (for the Explorer GOLD Award, if you can find one. Am suprised he earned it, because that award ended in 1998)

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with him wearing the Eagle and AOL knot instead.

Also, the Eagle, AOL, and Hornaday knot can be obtained on green backgrounds.

First off, there is no such thing as "Venture Crews". Its "Venturing Crews". (Yes, there is a difference).

Secondly, are scouts/scouters authorized to wear the MacLaren tartan? Scottish tradition says that only members of a clan may wear a clan's tartan. As I understand, there do exists 'organizational' tartans. I believe there may be a separate 'scout' tartan out there, as wearing a tartan is an option in Ireland and the UK, and this way all the scouts would wear the same tartan. Now, Wood Badgers who join the MacLaren clan (I've done so) might be allowed to wear the MacLaren tartan, but I'm not certain.

Make up one.

This is basically the one I used at the last minuted for officer inductions for my APO Chapter.

(all elected officers should form in a line in front of the chapter. The Advisor should then swear in each officer in).

Advisor: . Please make the Venturing Sign.

Advisor: You have been elected to the position of . As it is your responsibility to . Do you understand these duties and swear to fulfill them to the best of your abilities? If so, signify by saying "I Do".

Officer: I Do.

Advisor: (repeats for each officer).

Advisor: (to Crew). Members of Crew . These are the members of your crew that you have elected to lead you in the coming year. Work with them. Together we can achieve much in our Crew. Let us all congratulate our new officers.

Hope this helps.

Two responses:

1) if its so impossible to see the BSA Rules & Regs, how is it that I had no problem to order a set of these for about $3. I have Sept, 1998 and Jan, 2003 printings of both the BSA Charter & Bylaws and the BSA Rules & Regulations.

2) There is (was) both a Six-beader and a Five Beader. There is only one six-beader in the world: the Gilwell Camp Chief, who is responsible for Wood Badge world-wide. There is supposed to be only one 5-beader in each country that runs Wood Badge. They serve as the person in charge of Wood Badge in that country, and are called Gilwell Deputy Camp Chief. However, I don't think these traditions continue. Green Bar Bill was the only BSA scouter who put himself forward as the 5-beader for the US. No idea if his successor(s) continued this.