eisely

Our troop is in pretty good shape, and other than a legacy of advancement not being consistently recorded, at least the basic rosters seem pretty accurate.

I will say this. I think a lot of volunteers take a very cavalier attitude towards paper work. While we can all cite instances where we know that stuff was submitted to a council office and disappeared into a black hole, there are probably more instances where stuff was never submitted in the first place. Most of the training for adult leaders simply ignores the administrative side of scouting, and many new leaders or committee members simply do not realize their responsibilities.

Many years ago the lady who was our advancement chair in our troop in Southern California educated me about this. When council refused to recognize some names when she turned in advancement reports she figured out that some membership applications were never making it to the council office. She made it part of her job to check with the scoutmaster every week if any new scouts had joined so she could latch onto the membership application and get it where it needed to go.

My co worker was very clear that the scouts were canvassing for Romney. They were handing out literature. My co worker actually went outside and spoke to the adult leader present, also in uniform, and pointed out the illegality of what was taking place. The adult leader became very offended.

I first became aware of this was during the 1992 election when some scouts were placed in a photograph of a Bush one rally. Apparently it is OK for scouts to act as color guards at a rally and these guys were roped into standing on the stage behind Bush.

I confess to be a staunch conservative, but I think scouts should, and legally must, stay out of partisan politics. The national office ought to put out reminders every four years.

One of my co workers just told me that over the weekend a group of boy scouts were canvassing for Romney in his neighborhood in uniform. I think this is a violation of BSA policy regarding where and when the uniform should be worn. More importantly this activity jeopardizes the tax free status of BSA. It is a little late for this election, but please keep these limitations in mind in the future.

Our troop has never run that kind of deficit. Part of the problem as described is allowing boys to run a deficit on their scout accounts. Never should have happened. Also, it appears that the troop is not taking a large enough cut of fund raisers.

In our troop the major swings are Philmont expeditions and summer camp. The troop ends up funding the initial deposits which are eventually recovered from participants. We also end up funding a portion of each boy's summer camp.

Yes

Another option would be foil cooking. This would allow more flexibility for boys to select their ingredients for their own unique meals. If you do this it is best to used ground meats for ingredients, or possibly chicken "tenders" such as you get at COSTCO.

One could take it a step further and ask what purpose the EBORs really serve. If the EBORs are going to be a serious part of the process they need to have some authority. Otherwise it would make more sense to dispense with them altogether. Look at all the adult volunteer time you would release for better use elsewhere in the program.

I shall go back and re read the advancement guidelines.

I think we are in a grey area here, and I was also thinking more broadly about other circumstances that might arise. For example, in the situation of Ryan Andresen (subject of a separate thread under "Issues and Politics"), Ryan could have requested an EBOR even though his SM had not signed his eagle application. Under those circumstances it would have been entirely appropriate for such an EBOR to request that the SM either show up to explain his reasons for not signing, or at least submit a written explanation. In Ryan's situation the entire process was cut short by the National Council intervening and removing Ryan from membership altogether.

The point is well taken that the rule book places the burden of soliciting references, either orally or in writing, largely on the council. If no references were made available to an EBOR I think a responsible EBOR would be entitled to ask why this is so, and possibly defer a decision a reasonable time to allow the shortfall to be remedied. This is not the same thing as denying an award for lack of references. I would not see any barrier to the members of the EBOR itself assuming the burden of attempting a few telephone calls in such a situation. That would not be adding to the requirements, but merely following up on information already provided. There is no deadline of which I am aware for any EBOR to fulfill its responsibilities, except for those deadlines that revolve around the 18th birthday of the scout in question.

It is correct that a scout can go to an EBOR without anybody ever having contacted the references provided or having letters in hand. It is difficult to imagine a situation where this might occur. If I were on such an EBOR I would be inclined to defer a decision until a later date when at least some of the references would be in hand. The only reason to consider not deferring a final decision would be considerations revolving around deadlines associated with the scout's 18th birthday.

A scout can request an EBOR under a variety of circustances. Such an EBOR must be held, but it does not follow that an EBOR convened under such circumstances will automatically vote the eagle award up or down. An EBOR can legitimately request more information in order to make a more informed decision.

The council office is probably the last place I would send such a letter. Under current rules only the members of the EBOR are supposed to see these things. I would find out who is organizing the EBOR and speak to that person. He or she may have specific instructions about to whom to send your letter.

The decision to prosecute is, or should be, largely based on the quality and amount of evidence available. To the extent that some clear cut provable cases that were reported to the authorities were not prosecuted because of the standing in the community of the alleged abuser, then that is much more than just a BSA problem. Look how many years it took to catch up with Jerry Sandusky. Sandusky was convicted in large part by the sheer volume of vitim testimony. I don't think any physical evidence or third party eyewitness testimony, except fo one witness, was introduced at trial.

BSA leaders should be reporting apparent criminal acts to the authorities in addition to conducting their own investigations and making their own judgments about suitability for membership in BSA. Even then, I doubt that many actual prosecutions will result.

Well said Eamonn. As has been noted in other threads over the years this forum has been in business, having YP in place will not prevent all abuse. But I agree that having YP in place makes abuse less likely. Eamonn's point about better training for youth about reporting would be a worthwhile improvement.

I watch every little national news on TV anymore so I missed how the networks are treating this. Nevertheless, I too get the impression that BSA is getting off somewhat lightly. Part of this may be explained by the controversy over Ryan Andresen. The petitions were delivered on the same day that the abuse files were released. Rightly or not, these things tend to offset one another in the minds of a great many people. That may explain why the media gave this a fairly gentle treatment.

I guess there are some advantages to having a chartered organization that is a men's club for a roman catholic parish.

Eagle732,

Appeal what? How do you appeal removal from membership? This is not a matter of appealing an adverse decision regarding one's eagle. He never got to a board of review, although he could have gotten there without the SM signature on his eagle application. By removing Ryan from memberhsip in BSA altogether BSA national said he was simply ineligible to receive any further awards, and cut off the eagle process before it got to an EBOR.

Coming back to the original topic...

I understand that the mom, Karen Andresen, will attempt to deliver her petition to the Mount Diable Silverado Council office tomorrow afternoon, Thursday, October 18, in Pleasant Hill with full media coverage. I thought she already got her fifteen minutes. Watch your local news to see if there is any coverage.

This is one of those rumors that you wish was true.

Eagle732,

There would be at least two grounds for not signing off in your hypothetical situation. One would be the duty to god issue. The second would be a failure to "keep myself physically strong...." by smoking. The violations of law would possibly be a third.

Lacking any written bylaws governing membership on the troop committee, it is ultimately up to the chartered organization. Given the spousal relationship you mentioned, for purely political reasons you likely will want to leave this guy on the roster.

When I chaired a troop committee several years ago, I encountered a similar situation without the political sensitivities you mention. That troop was carrying, and paying for, a large number of adults whose sons had aged out and were no longer contributing to the troop. I took it upon myself to call as many of them as I could reach to directly and personally ascertain their real interests. Not a one of them wanted to either stay active or burden the troop. I cleaned out over a dozen names that way. To be sure, these were all nice people who had contributed in the past, but paying for their continued membership was pointless.(This message has been edited by eisely)

There is nothing wrong with promoting wood badge and public recognition of adults, but forty five minutes is obviously over the top and self defeating. This tendency of adults to stroke one another is not confined to wood badge or, for that matter, scouting. I happen to go to a concluding ceremony for a cub scout day camp several years ago. Most of that was taken up by the adult volunteers stroking one another and it was a turn off. They had put in a lot of effort and deserved some public recognition, but it has to be kept short and sweet or it becomes a negative.

Nothing.

Just because some scout thinks or says he is gay, does not mean that he is really gay. I would not take action to remove the scout immediately, although I might eventually do so if the scout's conduct was inappropriate.

Depending on the my understanding of the parents and their attitudes I would not automatically take it up with them unless I was sure there would be no adverse consequences at home.

Many male adolescents and pre adolescents are unsure of themselves and trying to figure things out. Many years ago my own youngest son told my wife and I that he was bisexual. Other than acknowledging what he said, we essentially ignored it. He was in a school environment where it was at least temporarily fashionable for male adolescents to proclaim their homosexuality. It never came up again and he is resolutely heterosexual today. So just because some kid says something does not mean that all the alarm bells have to go off.

Please note that earlier I alluded to conduct. Certainly if such a scout were coming on to other scouts or trying to persuade younger scouts to engage in some level of sexual activity, I would deal with that. But that would also be true in a coed venture crew. There is a difference between what is happening between the ears and overt conduct.

Troop 212 has a program to die for. It is very hard to argue with success and I don't want to see the troop go under. If there are things that need fixing, then hopefully those directly involved will recognize the problems and do the fixing.

Moraga is not a poor community, but it is not a super rich suburb either. I doubt that there any households with income below the official poverty line. We are fortunate that the town has not experienced a great many foreclosures compared to other California communities. Foreclosures have been above historical levels in the last few years, but nothing like other parts of California, Nevada or Arizona. So a great many families are able to put unusual amounts of money into their sons' scouting endeavors. Keep in mind that housing costs in California are way above national averages and suck up a great deal of most household budgets.

As others have noted, eagle is not a means tested award. We should celebrate these young men whatever their backgrounds. There are three suburban communities in our district and we have many successful troops with a high proportion of their scouts getting eagle. This is one part of the country where it is still fashionable for teenagers to be in boy scouts and we should all be glad of that.

Finally got around to posting...but I forgot what I was going to write.

I have avoided posting to this thread because of my direct involvement in this situation. I am not an adult leader in troop 212, but I am the district approval authority for eagle projects and met this young man and his father either in late August or early September, I do not remember which, to review and approve his eagle project. I had not heard of this family or this scout before that meeting. His project was unusual and Ryan volunteered that in the past he had been a target of bullying. I did not ask his sexual orientation and neither he nor his dad volunteered any information on that, but I felt very strongly at that time that Ryan was gay. I did not know that he had come out earlier in the summer and that his SM was apparently aware. I did note his pending birthday in October and approved his project. He actually had samples of the tiles he was going to use and the marking pens that would be made available to the schoolchildren. Once the tiles were up he was going to coat the tiles with some kind of protective material that would prevent the tiles for running in the rain.

I do not know all the details of how this happened, but I can tell you that you need to understand a few things about troop 212 to better understand how this could happen.

Troop 212 is a 50 year veteran troop. For years it was the only troop in Moraga. The troop has a very strong program and demands 100% participation in its activities. Thus the boys in that troop typically are not involved in sports or other activities that conflict with the troop schedule. Historically the troop limited its intake to 10 Webelos per year. They had unusually high retention so they had, and presumably still have, a very even age profile of the youth in the troop. They are also very exclusive.

When we first moved to Moraga several years ago, I and my scout age son (one of three) visited all the troops in town. When we visited troop 212 I was told in very strong terms, "We don't normally accept transfers." I don't think any of the boys at that troop meeting bother to even introduce themselves to my son. We joined another troop and have been very happy with our decision.

Troop 212 does not go to regular summer camps operated by any council. For years they have run their own summer camp at a place called "Camp Timberwolf" in the Plumas National Forest. This camp is currently run by a separate non profit corporation and other groups can rent the camp during the summer. I don't know the financial resources behind this, but clearly some folks have invested a great deal in this camp. It has its own web site so you can look it up.

I mention the camp since that is pertinent. Troop 212 has a reputation for tolerating, perhaps even encouraging, hazing. I don't know if anybody from troop 212 is following this thread and if I am wrong or unfair, please speak up. I am only saying that the troop has a reputation for hazing. I have no evidence to support that claim. Based on this reputation, it did not surprise me that Ryan described being hazed by his fellow scouts at camp. Operating your own summer camp helps hide these kinds of things, if true, from outside view.

The chartered organization is a well organized active church in the town of Moraga. I suspect that there will be some soul searching going on at the church about its relationship to the scout troop.

I can also tell you that this episode has got the local scouting community, both boys and adults, very stirred up. I have not met or talked to anyone who agrees with what was done to Ryan. A great many people, including ordinary scouts, have reached out to the Andresen family to express their support.

The current SM is relatively young and new to his position. I understand that he has a family, but that none of his sons are yet old enough to be in the troop. I also understand that, due to the volume of threats and hate messages, the SM has temporarily moved his family out of town.

I suspect that one or more of the older adults in the church who did not like the idea of seeing an "avowed homosexual" getting an eagle blew the whistle with the scout executive at the council office. How else would the council have become aware? It is difficult to make sense of the SM's actions otherwise. He approved the project. I saw his signature on the workbook. Yet he subsequentlty declined to sign the eagle application. I think that somebody put a lot of pressure on the SM.

Another fact: Ryan's dad was the committee chair. I think he chose to describe his role as "chief administrative office" since that is something most simple minded reporters could understand. I understand that he resigned this position after this blew up.

One has to have sympathy for the family and the mom. I did not see their appearance on Ellen Degeneris' show yesterday. We all as parents are very emotionally invested in our children. At a minimum the parents were very likely shocked and disappointed when they first realized that Ryan was gay. They have had a lot to deal with, and then this. I think that the mom made a tactical error in putting up her online petition, but I can understand why she did so. Because I am listed on the council website as a district volunteeer involved in eagle projects, I too have gotten unsolicited, but not threatening, emails from scouters around the country.

I personally think that what the BSA national office did in this situation was wrong. Ryan was going to age out anyway. They should have let him at least let him go to an EBOR. Something positive may yet happen for Ryan. In the last year BSA has awarded some eagles years after the 18th birthday. Ryan did complete all the requirements for his eagle before his 18th birthday. BSA national could easily climb down a bit if it wanted to do so.

Notwithstanding its history and the strength of its program, I think troop 212 will have trouble dealing with this. Some boys may leave scouting altogether or transfer to another troop. The troop has lost its committee chair, and may lose its scoutmaster and possibly even its charter if the church decides it does not want to be involved in this kind of controversy. I hope the troop survives, but right now I would not bet on it.

Anyway I hope readers find this informative.(This message has been edited by eisely)(This message has been edited by eisely)