Eamonn

John-in-KC, Sign of the times? Less and less people are reading the newspaper!! How many young boys read the newspaper? Ea.

While this is maybe not the same sort of thing. Some years back at a District Camporee, a leader "Mooned" a group of Boy Scouts. The SE revoked his membership. The leader had two sons in the program, so for as long as they were Scouts, he continued to help out where he could working as a kind of unofficial committee member. The SM, the Troop Committee and the CO wanted to see if he could be reinstated? They wrote to National HQ asking if he might be allowed to return. The answer was no. Eamonn.

If I have this right? In Maine the product was " the activities that were demonstrated " Aimed a youth members? In Chicago the product was values aimed at parents? Ea.

This is totally hypothetical!! What ever it is they say after each episode of Law And Order about no real person and all that good stuff! Applies here. A very nice kind person with tons of money has said he will pick up the tab for the BSA to have an all out marketing campaign. Someone from somewhere? Maybe the National Office? is sent to meet with the top advertising agency in the world. The first things the advertising agency wants to know is: What are you selling? Who are you selling it to? If you were this someone from somewhere? Maybe the National Office of the BSA? What would your reply be? Ea.

I'm game for anything that gets more kids to join! Some things I'd want to think about. * If the District is doing all this? How do or who does decide what Troop the youth who don't come with a friend go too? *Is there a "Danger" that the workers will be the people who do this type of activity anyway? Might it ruin it for them? *I kinda think I'd give some thought to having the parent drop them off, fill out a permission slip and leave contact information and have the parent pick them up and hopefully fill out the paper work and pay the registration fees. While no time is ever the best time!! If this were to become an annual event? December is hard for parents! Santa is expensive!! January might be tough!! Parents are broke and trying to get them to buy everything that is needed and maybe pay the deposit for summer camp? February might be a little better, a lot of the Christmas bills will be paid and tax refunds might be on the way!! But no matter when! Doing something sure as heck beats doing nothing!! Ea.

WOW!! Ea.

Mark, You might want to take a quick look at: http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs145007.pdf The History of the Queen's Scout Award. By the time I got around to doing it!! There was a lot more community Service involved. I did my community service working with young kids at the Cheyne Centre for Spastic Children in Chelsea, London. Strange how much you can learn about yourself while trying to help others!! Sure I was one of them idiots who hiked the 267-mile Pennine Way. I'm not sure why? I think just to prove to myself that I could do it!! (No detailed reports - I think looking back if there had been it would have read, "Got up, it was raining, walked in the rain, cooked in the rain, Went to bed -Still raining, got up it was raining!!") I still walk about five miles almost everyday. OJ hates to hike or even take a long walk!! I don't think this makes him any less of a Scout or any less of an Eagle Scout, to my way of thinking a good Scout has more to do with the Oath and Law than how far you hike. Eamonn.

Mark, Your last post did get my little grey cells working. Of course the Advancement Program, I went through was the one offered across the big pond! Of course me not being as young as I used to be, that was some time back. As a youth member I went "All the way" And did become a Queen's Scout. (Which you could only earn as a Venture Scout.) We didn't have merit badges we had Proficiency Badges. There were 4 classes of Proficiency Badges: Interest: As a rule not that hard -All the Scout had to show was some degree of interest and a little know how. Pursuit: Harder and you had to do stuff. Things like Pioneer Badge and Hiker were Pursuit Badges. Service: These were really hard. Where maybe the Badge Examiner (Yes examiner!!) might go easy on an Interest Badge, when it came to a Service Badge there was the requirements and that was it. Service Badges covered:Fireman, First Aid, Lifesaver. Then there were Instructor Badges where you had to learn how to instruct others in one of the Service Badges. Proficiency Badges, were worn on the sleeve of the uniform. thankfully it was a long sleeved shirt. I had an arm full. As I said it's been a long time. While I can remember some of the requirements of some of the badges. I don't think that there is one badge that I can remember everything that was required. But I can remember all the Badge Examiners. I can remember going to Mr Colbert's home to do the Librarian Badge. He was a kind older Gentleman a retired Justice of The Peace. He never married and spent a great deal of money on First Editions. He made tea and we ate biscuits (cookies)! I was 11 or 12 years old. I fell in love with this kind man. Over the years when I became a Leader, I'd pop in for tea and biscuits. Bill Cook was the Pioneering Badge Examiner. Bill could talk the hind leg off a donkey. He was a retired Signals Officer who served in the Royal Navy, in submarines. Not only did we deal with Pioneering we also learned a lot of Morse Code. John Tapping did Rock Climbing. John Jordan did hiking and map making (He was tough!!) The list could go on and on. The point I'm trying to make is that I remember the people who invested their time in me. I'm thankful that they did. But thirty odd years later. A lot of the skills are gone, the shirt with the badges went out a long time ago. But the kindness of the people who served me lives on. Eamonn.

Mark, Maybe I'm living in cloud cuckoo land? I'm very concerned about numbers / membership. Scouting like most living things never stands still! It (As an organization) is either growing or it is dieing. I'm sure that there are parts of the country where growth is just wonderful, I'm sure people will post this or send me a PM telling me so. Sadly things are not wonderful in the District I'm in (Not that far from you!!) The idea of "The Proud, The Few, The Boy Scouts" isn't all bad. I suppose there is a lot to be said about Quality over Quantity. I do feel passionately that we (You, me and all the other Scouter's who serve.) Can do a lot of good and do a lot of good. My great hope is that in the years to come that we can really reach out and bring more and more youth into Scouting. I'd really like to see more racial minorities and kids from poor areas along with kids from inner-cities become part of what we are and who we are. It of course doesn't need saying that we can't serve the youth that we don't have. Hand picking or selecting youth who someone deems as "Being worth it or worth our time"? Just doesn't seem like an option to me. Some time back (A long time back) in this forum there was yet another very long thread about uniforms (NO!!! I'm not going there!) Somehow the question about "Who would you ask what the uniform should be ?" Was asked. Would you ask the people who don't wear a uniform? Or those who do wear it? The argument was made that the people who don't wear it aren't going to wear it anyway! I'm not sure who we ask about Advancement? The Troops who understand that it is a method and use it along with the other methods? The Troops that don't understand that it is a method and make it a aim? The Scout who is doing his best and has a personal goal of earning the next rank? Or the ex-Scout, who thinks it's all stuff and nonsense? It's at times painfully clear that there is no quality control. One way or the other!! SM's and Committees who just give away everything or at the other extreme SM's and Committees who make it so darn hard that no one advances without meeting a lot of unwritten requirements. As an organization, we seen that we had a problem with Cub Scouting. As it happened I wasn't overjoyed or very optimistic about the "Race For Cub Scouts", but at least it seemed that someone was doing something. I would really like to see a break down, by age of the Boy Scout membership totals for the past few years (5 or 10 years) So far, even at the Area Level I have not been able to get this information. My guess is that we have very few 17 year old Boy Scouts, a few 16 year olds, a few more 15 year olds, a fair amount of 14 year olds and a lot of the 11 -13. (Nothing like hard numbers!!) The $64,000 qustion is why? Why are the older Scouts leaving? The youth I talked with said that they didn't like advancement. Of course maybe what they were really saying was that they didn't like the way it was presented? Eamonn.

I was holding back from posting in the hope that maybe some of the younger forum members would add their two cents. I really haven't given this much thought!! I like the idea of not having set specific requirements. I'm fed up hearing about what is and what isn't a pull up!! The skills we teach need to be seen by the youth we serve as being relevant. - Something that they are going to use. Maybe having some kind of list of interest areas that Scouts can choose from, where they (A Patrol?) set a goal to participate in some sort of an activity. Along the way they learn the skills needed for that activity. As I say I haven't thought this out!! But areas could include : Citizenship - The group might want to do some sort of community good turn. Or participate in a flag retirement ceremony. Maybe go to the pack and teach a Den about the history of the flag. What they decide to do would be up to them, but maybe having the PLC approve the project might be a good idea. Personal Fitness could be another area. This might be something they do outside of Scouting? Outdoors? They could plan an event and learn the skills needed to pull it off. I'm thinking we could go through the methods of Scouting and find an area that Scouts would need to plan and participate in an event that they have planned that coincides with the area. If there is a need to "Keep count"? The count could be X number of "Participations" from X number of areas. Forgive me if this sounds like a bit of a muddle!! Eamonn

AvidSM, Your right Philmont was a very bad choice. I did post: "Selling a hike to pass 1b is one thing, selling a hike to prepare for Philmont (Or some other special event that they want to do) might get better results." Here is how I see it. Right now 60% of the Scouts have in their own way said that they are not keen on going on a hike. As of right now they don't seem to be concerned too much about passing requirement 1b. Now take a look at your options: 1/ Do nothing. Who knows maybe they will have a change of heart. 2/ Make a big fuss. Let them know that you are upset that they have not passed requirement 1b and how without passing requirement 1b they are never going to advance and will never make Eagle Scout. 3/Make a big fuss of the Scouts that did go. Award them the soon to be much sought after Award of the golden boot, or dig into Troop funds and present each of them with a compass. 4/Working through the PLC come up with an event that will either include a hike that meets requirement 1b or an event where a training hike is needed. 5/ Take a long hard look at requirement 1b and see what can be done to make it seem like more fun. Look at it as if you were their age. You are an Imaginear. Is there a way that they can get really wet, muddy, dirty, can it be done at night? Can it be a Hero Hike where they save the planet? Eamonn.

"The front end of the progression of BSA Training is skills-oriented. In the middle, the emphasis is on leadership. After that the focus is on advanced skills that require leadership." This is the big change from what we had to what we now have. The course is not in any way trying to teach advanced skills. It is a Leadership course. We can discuss what came first the chicken or the egg? Advanced skills or Leadership? But the advanced skills needed to be a District Chairman are so very different than those needed to be a Roundtable Commissioner, which are so very different than the skills needed to be a Den Leader. So it makes a lot of sense to have a course that deals with leadership skills which covers everyone. No one is saying and in fact a lot of times during the course it is stated that Wood Badge is not the end. If someone feels that there is an area that needs attention they can go find a course or talk to their Training Chair about presenting one. Most R/T Commissioners I know are only too happy to allow someone who is good at something pass on their great knowledge to others. Some summer camps are now offering skill training for adults who might need a hand or be a little rusty. One day when I get more time I'd like to work on becoming a LNT Master. Training and learning never ends. But if you don't know how to lead others? What good is it? Ea (While I think of it I don't think the BSA needs permission or really cares what happens in other countries. The BSA in many ways is unlike most other countries in the way it does things.)

Sea Scouters do have Sea Badge. As yet I have to take it, was going to this fall but life got in the way. Having not taken it, I can't say much about it. Other than the last few courses offered were on Land!! There has been an ongoing discussion about Sea Scouter Training in their forums. A lot of Sea Scouters tend to think that WB is not for them! Maybe because they are not supposed to wear beads. In many ways I wish that the 21st Century Course had not kept the Wood Badge name. I'd be happy if it wasn't about or didn't try to include the different sections. But I didn't have any say in the development of the course, other than the feedback I provided after I was CD. Near the start of the course NE-IV-153 I did take the time to explain to the participants: I went over the Scouting Leadership Training. Explaining that the quality of the Scouting experience for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts and Venturers depends on the quality of those leading the units and those working in Districts and Councils across the nation. The BSA offers a progression of training opportunities that can help give them the skills they need to provide leadership for Scouting and for America. We have: Orientation and Fast Start. This provides a non-structured introduction to the Scouting organization. New Leader Essentials. This training covers the nuts and bolts of specific positions in Scouting. Adult Leaders can learn how best to fulfill their particular leadership roles in Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, Varsity Scouting, Venturing or as District or Council Scouter's involved with multiple Scouting program areas. Appropriate Outdoor Skill Training. This provides opportunities targeted to enhance outdoor skills need by leaders in Scoutings various programs. Wood Badge. This is a six day immersion in the theory,practice and experience for leading others within Scouting and in many different environments beyond the BSA. Lifelong Learning. The BSA encourages leaders that in addition to the its progression of trainings that they take advantage of opportunities for continuous learning and supplemental trainings within the BSA -Roundtables,pow wows, COPE courses, Scouting publications, special courses tailored to program areas -and the great variety of possibilities beyond the BSA to increase skills. The front end of the progression of BSA Training is skills-oriented. In the middle, the emphasis is on leadership. After that the focus is on advanced skills that require leadership. Wood Badge by design is to be as valuable to leaders involved with Cub Scouting, Varsity Scouting and Venturing as it is to those primarily involved with the Boy Scout program. The Troop setting provides a good framework to practice the leadership skills introduced during the course. The course content and leadership principles are however applicable to Scouters working throughout the movement and provide a common foundation of leadership skills to be used in all program areas. (This is what I used as part of the Course Overview.) Eamonn

"Turns out only 40% of the boys who needed 1b attended that Campout. The boys that did attend had a lot of fun on that five mile hike and will advance to SC soon. The rest of them will have to wait to advance." Look at this from another perspective! Maybe just maybe 60% of the Scouts have no real interest in hiking and choose not to participate. Maybe the goal of Second class isn't something that they feel is important to them right now or that they have ownership of? A lot of what we do depends on "How we sell it" Selling a hike to pass 1b is one thing, selling a hike to prepare for Philmont (Or some other special event that they want to do) might get better results. I can't help thinking if I were a little Lad and Mr.SM gave me the choice of SC requirement 1b or getting ready to go to Philmont, I'd take Philmont!! Eamonn.

gwd-scouter, Wish I could say that the statement came from me! But I stole it from Denzel Washington, who said it came from his mother.. Eamonn.

I like the list that SemperParatus provided (Hi we miss you!!) ChrisC Welcome to the forum. Couple of things. It isn't just an Eagle Scout Project. It is an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. Leadership is a big part of it. We of course don't know each other. I have no idea what is and what isn't going to be a challenge to you? As you enter our small town we have a really nice sign welcoming people to town on one side and thanking them for visiting on the other. It's a great sign!! Made of granite, with the words cut or blasted in. It sure beats the old wooden sign we had that was falling over and had seen better days. It was the work of an Eagle Scout. I don't know who he is, what Troop he is from. In fact I don't know very much about the project -Other than it's a very nice sign. I do know that a pal of mine who owns a local company that provides headstones (Grave markers) donated the stone and did the cutting for the words. I don't know how the Scout came to ask him or how he asked him? Did he get his Mom to ask? Or did he make an appointment and see this pal of mine with a detailed design and plans of what he wanted? I know from reading the local paper that the local town council had to approve the sign. I have no idea how much work went into getting this approval or who went about getting it? The sign sits on a base, I think that there is some kind of a footer or foundation under this base. I don't know how deep the footer is? If there is anything there -Power lines, water lines. The sign is next to the railway line that runs through that part of town, I don't know if the railway owns the land and permission was needed to put the sign there or not? If permission was needed who got and what was involved? A Scouting pal of mine and I drove past the sign, he (My pal) said he thought it was a "Mickey Mouse Project!" All he seen was the sign with the donated stone. I wasn't so sure? It really is a nice sign. I like it a lot. Was it a challenge? Did the Scout show leadership? Challenges come in all shapes and sizes. Eamonn.

I now have to admit to being in a bit of a muddle !! I never really asked the groups I spoke with "Why? They thought working for Merit Badges and trying to move up in rank was just silly. Many said that they never really set or had any "Advancement Goals" and that advancement was something that they felt forced to do. My reason for asking and meeting with these youth was/is that the District I'm in seems to be in a real membership slump. I have talked with a good many leaders and adult volunteers. All I heard and got from them was the same old same old excuses. They want to place blame on video games, soccer, TV, homework, school work. Stuff I've heard a lot over the past 30 years. While I'm willing to agree that kids today do have a lot more choices than maybe I had when I was a Lad. I'll give them that maybe a lot (Not all.) Kids don't seem to have the commitment that it seemed kids of yesteryear had. I'm also willing to give them that the kids we serve are a lot busier than I know I was at their age. Still, doing nothing and just accepting that we have a problem and doing is not a solution. Having read what has been posted, I'd give my right arm (I'm left handed!!) to have some of you serve the Scouts in the District I'm in. We have about 20 Troops. The decline in Cub Scout membership is starting to show, as is the number of Packs that have folded. With no real recruitment going on. We have to look at retention as a way of not only surviving, but also providing a program that will hold the interests of the Scouts we have. The methods of Scouting (All of them!) If applied correctly? Can and do work. Sadly none of the 20 Troops are able to say that they are applying or using the Methods. When things "Were Good" Troops kinda knew that year after year a new batch of little Lads were going to cross over from the Pack and these little Lads would make up about 33% of the Troop membership, last years "crop" of little Lads would make up another 33%. This of course meant that about 66% of the Scouts in a Troop were under 13. The remaining group of over 13 year olds either were like OJ; who after the age of about 15 became a Troop Visitor, attending meetings only if he was free and had nothing else to do. Or when they reached about 15 they quit. While of course I don't know the reason why every kid quit. From what I can see it seems that Troops were and are focusing the program that is offered on the younger Scouts. No real effort has been taken to meet the needs of the older Scouts. Older Scouts were expected to work on Merit Badges and Eagle Scout rank, with little or no real effort to provide them with a program that was: Fun, Adventurous and of course the Scouts looked for the badges that were not really hard, so there was no real challenge. No Troop in the District offers or has in the past 20+ years offered the older Scouts a High Adventure opportunity. Just about every Troop attends the Council Summer Camp. They sign up for next year, same site, same week, same everything before they depart from this years summer camp. The Scouts have no say in where they will go, when they will go and the camp program hasn't really changed that much in the past 30 years since I was on staff. Year one is great fun for the little Lads. Going home having earned a few of the less difficult badges. Watching these little guys at Troop COH's beam as they receive the fruits of their labors is a real joy. Year two isn't that bad, they take on some of the more difficult badges!! Year three a lot of the badges seem a lot like school work and forth-year campers who are not attending as staff members are a rare find. As a Jamboree Scoutmaster, I have had to tell some parents to go and lie down!! These parents hear that there will be 200 Merit Badges available. Some have gone as far as to ask that I prepare a sheet of what badge their son will do when!! I of course inform them that this isn't going to happen!! I explain that from my point of view I'd sooner see the Scouts return home with the rockers that go around the Jambo patch, showing that they had participated in all the areas. I explain how this "Rocker" thing works to the Scouts, in fact I remind them through the daily PLC and the SPL makes announcements reminding them. Even though the Jamboree provides me with enough of these little patches for every Scout to receive a full set, I being a Green Meanie do check their books and only hand out the patches to the Scouts who have met the requirements. Sure near the end there is a mad rush to go and meet with the Chaplains. I have had one Scout who was happy to spend most of his time working on MB's that he could have done at home. That was his choice. Most of the other Scouts are really happy to just take off after breakfast and follow whatever plan they have made for the day. (Sometimes with some help from me.) Or just take off and participate in whatever activity they happen to stumble across. I enjoy hearing one group tell another group "Hey you gotta try the whatever, it's really cool!" The Scouts who attend all say that they have had a great time. They have fun, they tend to form their own little groups and travel from activity to activity in these groups, they get to try new things, see new things. They are almost completely self-scheduled. Hanging out at the camp site is a no-no!! Even the parents who visit see that their son is having a great time and so far not one parent has ever mentioned Merit Badges to me!! A lot of the activities offered at the Jamboree, especially in the Action Areas are not that difficult to put on and require very little in the way of investment. Councils could use the Jamboree as a model for summer camps. In place of moving Scouts from class to class. Badge work could still be available, but maybe only the badges that can only be earned Outdoors or utilizing the facilities that can only be found at camp. As for the "Mind Set?" Seems to me that at present we sell " Do the requirement, because it's the requirement" If we could move toward "Do what you have to do, so you can do what you want to do". Things would be a little better. By this I mean if a PLC decides that they want to do something? Say sailing. They need to learn the skills and safety requirements before they go out on the water and once out they can improve on these skills. A big complaint I have heard is that Scouts spent too much time learning things or perfecting skills that they never use. Troops who have Troop Meetings where the meeting is a Merit Badge class that the adults have decided to run with because they found a local expert, might sound great -To the adults. When OJ was about 12 the SM of the Troop he was in found a guy from the navy who was an expert on Nuclear Science (I think it was Nuclear Energy at that time?) He booked the guy for 4 Troop meetings!! I was District Commish at the time so I just happened to visit the Troop. This guy was doing his thing!! I had no idea what he was talking about it was way over my head!! OJ had less of an idea than I did!! Talking with the SM, he was so very proud that his boys were going to have a badge that most Scouts don't get. OJ said it was boring!! He never liked science and to spend four full Troop meetings? What a waste. Eamonn.

Yes I said do away with advancement!! Over the past few weeks I have been meeting with and talking to small groups of young people, mainly aged 14 and up. Some were Scouts who had quit, some were never in Scouting. I have also talked with kids who are in the program. My unofficial, unscientific, with an enormous margin of error poll had a goal of looking at what worked and what didn't work. What youth thought about Scouts, what they liked and disliked. As you might guess uniforms are not very popular. Many if not most of the Boys who had been in Scouts and had quit said that they really liked the activities (Camping was very popular) They enjoyed being in a group with kids their age, didn't like the "Little Kids"! Most said that they thought working for Merit Badges and trying to move up in rank was just silly. Many said that they never really set or had any "Advancement Goals" and that advancement was something that they felt forced to do! One 16 year old boy said that it was great when he was a Cub Scout to go to the front of the hall and receive something and how proud he felt that he was making his parents proud, which made him feel happy. He had crossed over into a Troop, his parents, Scoutmasters and the adults seemed to have set a goal for him to make Eagle Scout. At first he worked on the badges and the ranks. But he did so only to please others. When he decided that he wasn't interested in "Collecting stupid merit badges" (His words) It seemed that the pressure was turned up and the heat was on!! Of course being a teenager the more people got on him the more he was turned off!! Till he quit!! A lot of the kids I talked with said that they just didn't like all the fuss that was made about advancing. Seems to me that we have a lot of youth who are happy to participate in the activities that we can offer. They want to have fun, join in the adventure, but they see the challenges as being things that they participate in not as meeting requirements set by others. Of course I'm very much aware of the methods of Scouting and know that Advancement is there and has been there for a very long time. It can be said that a Lad can join and if he wants can decide not to get involved in the advancement program, but looking at most troops and many Council ran Summer Camps, this might be really hard. Our advancement programs do make it easy for people to set goals. The Advancement program does a lot to help adults with a framework for the activities and the program offered. (Imagine the problem some Council ran camps would have if the Merit Badge classes were not there to fill in the time?) But I think we could still meet the Aims of Scouting and fulfill the Vision and Mission if we were to move the empathise from Advancement to Participation. I'm in no way saying that what we have doesn't work or hasn't worked, but maybe it's time for a change of mindset? Eamonn

Kudu, Have to admit that # 3 brought back memories!! A very good pal of mine was a participant on a course, which I staffed. This "Scout Law Hike" was done before and leading up to the final ceremony. The ceremony itself was very simple, but it really did impact the people present. I looked at my pal, who is by no means a small fellow. He had tears rolling down his face. The final presentation of the new course is good (Very good) But not as good as that hike and closing. Ea.

I'm not sure!! We have what we have!! One might ask: What is a cookie supposed to be? Lots of different cookies, everyone has a favorite! But even when you get two people to agree on the same cookie, they might decide they like it the way they like it!! I have attended the English Course, the Cub Scouter course (Trainer) the old Boy Scout Course and the 21st Century Course. All were very different. However some things remained the same. Mainly: I had fun. I went with an open mind and learned a lot. I met some really great people. I enjoyed spending time doing what I enjoy. I don't see any training course as being the be all and end all of all training. It (Wood Badge) when all is said and done is a course!! Everyone who attends has their own agenda and some sort of expectation of what they hope to get out of the course. If they went expecting chocolate chip cookies and only got raisin oatmeal, they are not going to be happy. The course I took in England over 30 years ago (Ouch!!) was in some ways like Kudu has mentioned and maybe what GernBlansten might like. Maybe because I was so very young!! I got caught up in the activities and a lot of the true meaning was lost on me. The "Old" Boy Scout (BSA) course wasn't a bad course. I still use and go over the 11 Leadership Skills with the Scouts in the Ship. Sadly over the years the course had been abused so much by so many people, that at times it was hard to know what was the course and what was an add on -Even the add ons had been added too!! The new course is a good course. It isn't the old course and maybe a name change would have been a good idea? If someone goes with a closed mind thinking that they are not going to get anything from it! That's what they are going to get -Nothing!! Is there a need for more and maybe better practical training's? They are out there. Philmont offers a lot of really great training's. Sadly for many of us getting there is a chore. Hopefully Councils will see if there is a need and try to fix any problems that there might be. Sadly I kinda think filling practical courses might be a hard sell. Times have changed a lot since I first attended Wood Badge. I'm at the tail end of the Baby Boomers or maybe at the front end of The Joneses? People who attend the courses offered today were educated differently than I was, they expect all the high tech stuff that wasn't even dreamed of back then. Maybe we did have a Vision and a Mission, but just didn't know it? The Forming Storming Norming Performing model of group development was unheard of for many of us. Sadly at times the norm for group development was often intimidation and bullying. Wood Badge is supposed to offer people who attend tools that they can take back and use to make the job they do a little better and maybe a little easier? But at the end of the course it's their choice if they want to use the tools or not. Eamonn.

I kinda think the best part of all WB courses is the interaction between the Scouter's (Staff and participants) If we can put that to one side? What did you enjoy most from the course you were on ? (Particpant or staff) - Old course or new course. Boy Scout or Cub Scout, American or not!! Ea.

gwd-scouter, I attended and was a staff member for the Cub Scout Trainer WB. The course was offered as a 3 weekend course (As was some Boy Scout courses) I only participated only in the week long courses. Have to admit that looking back it really was a mismash!! We had all the WB "Frills"!! The Patrol critters -Even though we were treated like adult cub scouts. All the malarkey that used to go on at Gilwell Field (Which by the way never went on at the real Gilwell!!) We did sleep in tents, but being Cub Scouts we were not allowed to light fires -All meals were provided in the mess hall. There were a lot of camp fires (Pack campfires!!) In place of the feast which the old BSA Boy Scout course had, we had a blue and gold banquet. As it was a trainer WB, all the sessions were inside and had to do with training. As I posted on 11/20/2007. Why the course was held at Boy Scout camps? Seemed silly too me. If anything the sessions were a little to perfect -I worked on my two for over a year!! A few weeks later I went to present a training for our District. All the electrical outlets were two pin!! My TV/VCR combo was three pin!! The VCR ate my tape!! I was using OJ'S laptop and couldn't get it to read the disk!! It was a welcome back to reality shock after the course where everything was and went so well. I now carry two laptops and a spare bulb for my LCD projector!! Eamonn.

Hops, You young whippersnapper!! You can't speak English with an English accent!! Might I be so bold as to mention that you are the one speaking English with an American accent. Anyway!! Talking as an old codger!! Scouts and Scouting does have its high points and there are low points as well. We play this game in real time. Like most things we love, there are times when something or someone will cause you to cry. Be it because they are gone, because they have touched your heart or maybe because they have been harmed or hurt. I feel blessed that Scouting has given me so very much. So many good and true friends, so many Scouts who have shared their youth with me. I don't look back or dwell on the lows!! The joy and laughter far outweighs the lows. When I'm in "Preaching Mode" I remind the Scouts in the Ship that they will only ever get out of anything what they put in! Soon I'll be put out to pasture and will join the other old codgers who sit around talking about the good old days. I'm happy to go knowing that people like you and OJ will take my place. Keep the faith, look for opportunities to have fun, share the fun with others and tell everyone else to go pound salt!! Eamonn. (I'll see you in 2010!!)

One comment I hear a lot from the Scouts in the Ship is that we use the skills we work on. I'm not the best Skipper!! I kinda like to think I'm a fairly good "Dirt Scout" (Much as I hate using that term!!) The knots and rope work was nothing new. But I had to learn Navigation and that good stuff. Thankfully the Sea Scouter's who I have met have been a God send and give freely of their time and knowledge. We do have a couple of Sea Scouts who are just outstanding at Navigation and celestial Navigation, far better than I am. Not to blow my own trumpet, but over the past couple of years I have worked hard at learning new skills and improving old skills. Our COR is a fine fellow, a really nice guy. Sadly he was never a Scout, but became involved with Scouting ten years ago, during which time he served as a Cubmaster and then ASM. He has taken the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Outdoor Training, but still he is about as useful as pockets in your underwear when it comes to outdoor skills. He has taken the Troop to summer camp a few times, but is the sort who is happy to shoot the breeze with anyone, but never really get involved. The Scoutmaster of the Troop is in much the same boat, never a Scout, nice guy, but lacks the know how. At one time they did have as a Committee Member a very talented older Scouter, sadly he left the Troop when his Grandson quit Scouting. They both seem happy to hand their Scouts off to anyone who is willing to work with them. The goal is Eagle Scout Rank for all!! Troop meetings are based on Merit Badge classes, with experts brought in to teach the class. The outdoor program is mostly based on the District Camporees and activities. While maybe someone at sometime has come to a Troop meeting and gone over knots, I'll bet the Scouts in the Troop have never really had a need to use them. For the last Jamboree I was SM. All the Scouts were to be First Class Scouts, not one could tie a tautline hitch. They said they never use it!! I can't help but think that maybe they did learn it, but it really is a case of "Use it or lose it"! Ea.

Beavah, As an adult I agree with you whole heartedly. When we pass a Lad for something he can't do or hasn't learned we are short changing him and doing a great disservice. Venividi, On the surface the point you make seems to be a valid one. But many adults and some youth leaders are very good at hiding things that they can't do! "Don't worry about treading water, your going to be wearing a PFD!" Or "I've been in Scouting for twenty-five years and I've never used that whatever" Part of the reason why OJ left the first Troop he was in was due to the fact that he felt they were handing out MB's he hadn't earned. Summer Camp was a Merit Badge Frenzy, not only with the badges offered by the camp, but the leaders ran classes as well. He returned from camp with Coin Collecting .He was just starting to save the State Quarters and Family Life in a week!! At the time he was about 13. He didn't feel that he could stand up to the adults in the Troop so he left and went to another Troop. He has never been a shy kid and as a rule doesn't suffer in silence!! This was something he felt was beyond his control. Soon after this happened the District Chairman took on sorting out the Merit Badge list!! One adult in the Troop was listed as being the counselor for over 35 badges. The "Recommendation" was that no one sign up for any more than five!! A lot of the mistakes made on the way to First Class, can and will be become apparent if the Troop has a fairly active traditional Scouting program and skills can be learned along the way. This of course is not the way things should work!! But sometimes that's the way it is. To date no Boy Scout who has joined the Ship has the skills that you might expect from Scouts who have five or six years in the program, many are Life Scouts and are very bright intelligent Lads. Eamonn