Eagle732

Headline, day two: "Killer Eagle Scout was a Prepper"

Story:.. he was learning wilderness survival skills so he would be prepared when the world ends"

"New York City - Empire State Building. Police shootout with gunman results in 9 bystanders injured - most shot by the police. If the police, trained to shoot, can end up shooting other people, what makes us think people who don't train on a regular basis will do any better? "

Well Calico if you're insinuating that NYPD are such poor shots that they shot 9 people I think you would be wrong. When we dig into the facts we find that two were killed, the shooter (by the police) and his targeted victim (by the perp). Nine bystanders received non-life threatening injuries by bullet FRAGMENTS caused by NYPD bullets striking solid objects.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/425937/shoot-out-two-die-in-empire-state-building-shooting/

Stuff happens when your in a shootout in a crowded urban setting. Of course in Utopia these things would never happen.

It's hard to have a discussion with someone when they are all over the place. Who's talking about Florida and Stand Your Ground? Do you even understand what that means or did you just see it on TV?

Facts vs Emotion

What happens when the next kid goes into a school and kills people then it turns out he learned how to shoot at Scout camp?

I can see the headlines now "Eagle Scout kills 18 students in school shooting was just awarded Rifle Shooting Merit Badge"

Beav, I support 2 year mandatory military service.

moose, NO, what I'm saying is people site the Columbine incident as proof that armed guards don't work. I say they do and in fact if you would read the timeline you would see that it in fact did. However typical PD SOPs (standard operating procedure) at that time was to wait until SWAT arrived, have them formulated a plan, and entered to neutralize the situation. Today the typical PD SOP is when two officers arrive they enter. No waiting, more dangerous for the cops but hey that's what they get paid for.

I know this because half of my family are cops, I'm the lone firefighter in the bunch.

"And having everyone walk around with a gun strapped to a hip holster, just means there will be more shootings during road rage, when parents get mad at their sons little league coaches, during arguments over favorite baseball or football teams at a bar also at a bar you can have that arguement over who goes home with the girl shootouts."

Do realize that your state of New Hampshire is a Right to Carry, Shall Issue CCW state? That means anyone without a criminal record can go into a police station, fill out some forms, have a background check and get a permit to carry a gun in most public places. According to you people in your state should be killing each other left and right! Do you realize that for 2011 New Hampshire had a murder rate of 1.3 per 100,000 and Maryland had a rate of 6.8! Of course don't let the facts get into the way of what makes you feel good.

Here in Maryland we do not have the right to CCW and I dare you to walk on any street at night in Baltimore. The only people carry concealed around here are the criminals. Remember our murder rate is 5 times what yours is and we can't defend ourselves!

According to you putting cops in schools is crazy, although I bet you agreed with it when Clinton introduced his COPS initiative that gave grants to local schools for police officers in 2000 after Columbine.

NRA: Cops in schools = BAD

Clinton: Cops in schools = GOOD

It's no wonder this country is going down hill fast.

The difference between you and me is I deal in facts and logic and you deal in emotions and feelings. Your way of thinking gets people killed.

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

"If yeh wouldn't do those things, and yeh support community laws which would restrict others from doin' things you would not do, then what's wrong with havin' that conversation?

There's nothing wrong with having a rational conversation as long as we're not denigrating each other (nutters, cowboys, etc) and we're using facts.

"Is there somethin' wrong within da firearms community from choosing not to sell to a woman talkin' about imminent economic collapse and lookin' stressed? Forget the law for a moment. What's da right thing to do?"

Pure speculation, you don't know if she looked stressed or even spoke to the gun shop owner about her beliefs. Apparently only her family knew of her beliefs.

"Is there somethin' wrong with notion that your firearms and ammunition should be secured at home if yeh have kids or not fully functional adults in da house?"

Nope, and I never said there was. My stuff is all locked in a 2,000 pound safe bolted to the floor. It is unlawful in this state to have unsecured weapons where someone under 16 can have access to them.

What's wrong with another person on da range sayin' "Linda, are you securin' those guns at home? You've been havin' trouble with that son of yours, and it's tough, I know. Yeh can store stuff over at my place if yeh need to."

I never said there would be anything wrong with someone talking with her.

Beav, did you even read my post? Apparently not or else you're purposely taking what I said out of context.

I never said any of the things you claim. I can't have a discussion with someone who is going to take what I say and twist it into whatever meets their needs.

Maybe not. I have some weapons here that have doubled in value since I purchased them. From a financial perspective firearms are one of the better investments. Only gold and silver, which has a highly inflated value in my opinion, has had a better record of return.

All weapons should be secured in a responsible fashion. We don't know yet if or how these weapons were secured. Certainly common sense would dictate that if a person is living in your household who is unstable then extra precautions should be taken. Unfortunately mom paid with her life for that mistake.

"And having everyone walk around with a gun strapped to a hip holster, just means there will be more shootings during road rage, when parents get mad at their sons little league coaches, during arguments over favorite baseball or football teams at a bar also at a bar you can have that arguement over who goes home with the girl shootouts."

Do you see a lot of this in New Hampshire?

As far as Columbine goes instead of reading biased articles from the the HuffnPuff Post why not read what really happened.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/NARRATIVE.Time.Line.htm

Deputy Garner was eating lunch in his patrol car outside of the school when the shooting started. When he arrived at the he engaged the shooters. He failed to stop them but his being on scene and engaging them did allow for some students to escape.

"Despite their injuries, Patti Nielson and Brian are able to flee into the school library while Harris and Klebold are distracted by the arrival of Deputy Gardner. Gardner has just pulled up in the lower south parking lot of the school with the lights on his patrol car flashing and the siren sounding"

The gunmen started shooting at 11:19. No armed security was in the building at the time. NO ARMED SECURITY WAS EVER IN THE BUILDING UNTIL 12:06 WHEN A SWAT TEAM ENTERED THE BUILDING! For 45 minutes the gunman had free reign in shooting and bombing the school.

Also this in reference to the wounding of a teacher: "A group of students, including two Eagle Scouts, Aaron Hancey and Kevin Starkey, gather around him, attending to his injuries and administering first aid."(This message has been edited by Eagle732)(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Well there will be dialog but it will be one sided.

"In the past all banks had an armed guard. I thought it was just my suburba that no longer has guards, but I heard not even big cities have them. Why? It didn't really do much to prevent the crime. It was just the target of who to take out first."

Hmmm, which teacher is carrying concealed? Is it the principle, the gym teacher, the librarian, or is is it the history teacher?

In the mean time the bank guard is standing at the door, in uniform, with a gun in plain view. I'm not seeing the comparison here.

Look up the word "concealed","To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered; hide"

I look forward to the time when each Council is made up of one or two mega districts with each having one or two mega troops administered by a paid, professional Scoutmaster.

In the mean time we sell off camps to pay the inflated salaries of the "professionals"

"If the laws had been kept in place after the assult weapon ban was enacted...he may have had a normal gun or a rifle."

False: The "assault weapons ban" law was enacted into CT law years ago. Many states including mine enacted the exact version of the federal law when the federal law expired. Since the gun used in the crime was purchased in CT then it fell under CT law. If you're interested in facts you can read it here:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-31st-editiion/States/atf-p-5300-5-connecticut-2010.pdf

If it's too much trouble to read the entire law it's 53-202

"Maybe not in so many words, but many are defending the speech given by the NRA spokesperson, who said that guns are not the problem except for the fact there are not enough gun packing citizens running around."

False: But the NRA did predict that would be the response from people like you. The NRA made several proposals after Obama welcomed everyone to come together to find a solution. Apparently you believe only people who think like you should have a say. ONE of the proposals was to put armed officers in every schools. We have Air Marshals why not School Marshals. My son's school has at least one on duty every day.

Read the NRA's statement before making uninformed comments. If you want to read what was actually said instead of what media wants you think was said you can find it here:

http://home.nra.org/pdf/Transcript_PDF.pdf

Moose I would think you would be an NRA supporter, they do a lot to register voters and fight voter suppression.

I agree, there's no need to fear law abiding citizens owning firearms!

We teach firearms use and safety in Scouting. Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloader MBs. We allow Venture Crews to shoot handguns. Our kids go to summer camp and the most popular place are the shooting ranges. Philmont has boys shooting high powered 30-06 caliber rifles, some would consider those "Sniper Rifles".

Should we remove all shooting from Scouting?

And that is why departments today carry rifles.

When my father-in-law was a cop back in the 60's he carried a revolver. I don't think any departments carry revolvers any more.

And in my state, and I believe in most states, it is unlawful to use body armor in commission of a crime. Also in the case you stated the perps illegally converted semi-automatic firearms into full auto.

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

Here we go!

http://washingtonexaminer.com/sen.-feinstein-suggests-national-buyback-of-guns/article/2516648#.UNcbgaVQkRU

How to become a felon with the stroke of a pen.

Unfortunately all my guns were lost in a tragic canoeing accident.

OK Beav I'll play hypothetical scenario with you.

"Will yeh also agree that perhaps someone like this woman who believed in imminent social collapse and was livin' with a mentally unstable son who she regularly left unattended for days shouldn't have been sold da arsenal that was used in this tragedy?"

In my opinion 4 or 6 guns doesn't make an arsenal. And how would a gun dealer know the mental capacity of her son? You already have to state on the federal paperwork (ATF form 4473) if you, the purchaser has ever been diagnosed with mental illness which disqualifies you. And as far as someones beliefs on the fiscal soundness of our country, I for one believe we are heading for a severe recession. Does that disqualify me from owning firearms?

"Would you, as a responsible firearm owner, have sold her that gear if yeh had known that?"

No, I wouldn't, if I had known what her son would do. My understanding is that all her firearms were purchased through a licensed gun shop. ATF is all over that shop for sure and they'll be out of business if they violated any rules.

"Would yeh have let her and her son carry on a scout trip?"

Of course not. Did anyone suggest that?

However as 20 year old Venture crew member he could have received instruction in the use of a handgun and if he had been a Scout we could be discussing how BSA trains killers since he first learned how to shoot at summer camp. Should we shut down all BSA camp rifle ranges? After all we're training youth how to shoot guns and guns are bad!

"Would we let the drunk drive as his "right", or take away his keys because right now he shouldn't be allowed to?"

If we wouldn't give a drunk more drinks and let him drive off, then maybe an establishment with a liquor license shouldn't either. At least, it's a conversation that is OK to have."

Drunk driving is a violation of the law in every state. There's also laws against serving people who are already intoxicated when you have reason to believe they will drive. No one here has argued for NOT HAVING ANY FIREARMS REGULATION. This is a false argument. You do not have the Constitutional Right to be drunk.

For those of you who really want the facts then maybe you could start here with CT law:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-31st-editiion/States/atf-p-5300-5-connecticut-2010.pdf

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

"The only person going down the slippery slope of "What if--" are those who don't want any restrictions on gun ownership at all."

It's hard to have an intelligent discussion when people make false statements. In the various threads here on this subject NOT ONE PERSON HAS SAID THERE SHOULD BE NO RESTRICTIONS ON FIREARMS!

People should be able to CCW where it's legal.

The G2SS sets the rules for Scouting, that should be followed too.

Just because someone believes that doesn't make them a "nutter", cop wanna be, a cowboy, paranoid, wanting to impress women, making a fashion statement, someone who wears a foil hat or any of the other derogatory things you have said.

She was conceded about the financial collapse of the country. No valid reason for that eh?

So what I'm getting from the last two post is we're too cheap and we're too stupid to take care of our kids. Got it!

It's not a good idea because the boogie man (NRA) proposed it. Of course others have before yesterday and some places actually are doing it but that doesn't matter.

Of course the NRA has the largest police training program in the country but hey why let the experts even take part in the discussion!

Beav,

I can't understand why you can't accept the fact that CCW is for personal protection and those choosing to do so are not trying to be a cop. One does not need to meet the standards of police or military training to defend ones self or family.

The right to self defense is not granted by the Second Amendment or the politicians. It is Natural or God given right.

And by the way I wouldn't hesitate for a second to perform an emergency cricothyrotomy.