Eagle007

I think the scout should work at his own pace and not be pushed into something that he has made in his mind not to do. This is a voluntary program and if he wants to advance for advancement sake then he knows what is required. Allow the scout to have fun and enjoy himself. Maybe he will eventually learn to like water.

I don't think BSA needs to be bending the rules or having alternatives everytime we see someone with a "phobia" of something. If that were the case, the requirements would be meaningless, in my opinion.

If anyone wants to spend the money, I know of a pediatrician in my area that hands out ADD/ADHD scripts like they were M&Ms. All one needs to say is one of any of the "magical phrases" such as "the teacher said he blurted out an answer without raising his hand" or "he won't stop acting like an all American little". He would also give out the needed excuse for this scout if the right phrase was said by the parents. If you think I'm lying then I have hundreds of medical and pharmacy receipts from the ex (for which I pay half) to prove it. Sad thing is if the boy needed the meds, I wouldn't have any problem with it. But he doesn't.

Adults hands down

If the kid is that hydrophobic does he take a shower or does he just alcohol wipes? I've seen kids that didn't want to get into the pool or lake but not to the point that they would need to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Now to lighten the mood a little, I had a mental picture of a kid looking like Pigpen on Charlie Brown.

Welcome, siny.

I am conflicted on the subject of fundraisers. I understand without them some scouting families would be hard pressed to be able to afford the different activities requiring fees. At the same time I don't like the idea of turning our scouts (my son in particular) into little salesmen.

I have a problem with being accosted, if you will, by different organizations (girl scouts selling cookies as an example) outside of every Walmart, Target or other grocery/discount store when I go to do the shopping. I have nothing against the girl scouts.

I have a problem with being accosted by co-workers selling this and that for little Johnnie's organization or little Sally's school fund raiser. And when I politely tell them that I wouldn't care to buy anything from their angels, they take it as a personal slap in the face.

I apologize in advance and don't mean to come across as being unsympathetic to these causes but c'mon man. It seems like I get hit up and nickeled and dimed to death from everyone for every cause. Is it not enough for me to support my own kids efforts which stretches me pretty thin as it is?

I would personally like to thank everyone for their insight on these subjects and professionally thank my colleagues for adding to my continuing education.

[ I said as a nationally registered EMT I can't (one person's prescribed medication to help another). I also said more later.

Now for the "more later". I can't do this based on my scope of practice. That opens up a whole new can of worms. I didn't say I won't based on an emergency. I will do everything in my power to keep this scout from dying. Truly emergent circumstances dictate exigent decisions. If I knew that the other scout's epipen will treat the anaphylaxis and will cause no harm to the scout in need then you had better believe with all your heart that I will be using the auto-injector. I will also be getting that scout to the nearest medical facility, ASAP.

I will always do what is in the best interest of another person and be ready to defend my actions in court. ]

A few things to think on with explanations:

1)My scope of practice gives the 4 Rs for assisting with certain medication, epipens being on of them, Right dose (difference between adult and children dosages), Right route(ingestion, inhalation or injection), Right medication (prescribed to the patient for the illness and not expired and not cloudy), Right patient (prescribed to the patient who you are assisting in administering said meds).

2)If you take the other scout's pen will that place him in jeopardy if he gets stung? In most cases people carry 2 epipens with them. Some carry back ups for the back up's back up.

3)I said if I knew that using someone else's epipen would help... Evidently and to my demise in my last posting I deleted a part that should have been in there for clarification. "I would have been in contact with medical control, or in layman's terms, the nearest emergency room physician for orders since using someone else's epipen would go outside my scope of practice. I know that's going to bring up the question "what if no one in your party has cell phone service?"

4)If you take the other scout's pen and the boy in anaphylaxis dies because he was allergic to epinepherine, "you" are the one who will be responsible for his death because you were not authorized to give the scout this prescription medication. Forget about the money changing hands because of the civil lawsuit. Think about the next several years to life that you could be spending in prison for manslaughter. Reference #7 below for more information.

5)I carry benadryl in capsules and chewable if needed. I'm unaware of anyone in our troop who uses epipens.

6)The fact still remains that you would certainly do what is best for those in your care. Textbook answers are one thing. Reality is something different. Ethics and morals come into play also. Each one of use has to make hard personal decisions. And right or wrong, we are the one that will have to live with the outcomes and consequences of each of those decisions. It's easy for us to play armchair quarterback in these forums but in the real world we may face a whole different set of variables that we never even thought of. Do your best based on your level of training and press onward.

7)Epinephrine does have side effects. Here is a reference: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/epinephrine-side-effects.html(This message has been edited by Eagle007)

SR540Beaver, if it was made very clear, up front and witnessed or in writing to the scout and his parents that if he failed to meet the height/weigh requirements then I don't see where they have a leg to stand on in a lawsuit.(This message has been edited by Eagle007)

Beavah, I said as a nationally registered EMT I can't (one person's prescribed medication to help another). I also said more later.

Now for the "more later". I can't do this based on my scope of practice. That opens up a whole new can of worms. I didn't say I won't based on an emergency. I will do everything in my power to keep this scout from dying. Truly emergent circumstances dictate exigent decisions. If I knew that the other scout's epipen will treat the anaphylaxis and will cause no harm to the scout in need then you had better believe with all your heart that I will be using the auto-injector. I will also be getting that scout to the nearest medical facility, ASAP.

I will always do what is in the best interest of another person and be ready to defend my actions in court.

Common sense would tell me that if we were abiding by the rules and regulations of national and it was just my tired, old fat behind that was dragging and there were no signs or symptoms of any heat related illnesses with precautions taking place then I would allow things to proceed as planned. I monitor the progress and the changes to the environmental conditions and act accordingly.

Moosetracker, if it's a health and safety issue then I call their parent, explain the situation and have them to come get the scout. Until the scout is retrieved, they are taken care of by sitting them in the shade and given plenty of fluids. I would also call later in the day/week to check on the scout.

Could it be that the District Commish also called his bluffs or was just tired of stepping in what he was smelling?

Brent, as a nationally registered EMT, I can't.

More later.(This message has been edited by Eagle007)

Vol brings up another great point with why it is so important for the scouters to know about a scouts medical history - allergies or anaphalaxis.

I would definitely want my son's scouters to know if he were allergic to bee stings, for example. I'd also want them to know that my son carries epi pens and what they are/will be carried in on outings in the event he gets stung and needs help retrieving them as well as in the assistance of administering said epinepherine.

Welcome Florida. So when you are having the cup of coffee with this person who is spouting "the rules" to you and you are asking for them to provide said rule in written form, what do they say? Do they know that you are calling their bluff and just want to continue in ignorance or are they just that argumentative? I would say that borders on harassment or just plain stupidity? What position does this person hold within BSA?

Welcome, Norman, to the virtual roundtable. Have a seat and enjoy the coffee and campfire.

I'll ask this again for emphasis and make it personalized to your local unit. If you allow any of these people that are over the limits on national's chart to attend an event or outing and something happens to them, regardless of whether it was due to being overweight or another underlying issue, will you and/or your troop be covered by the umbrella of the BSA insurance? Remember, you allowed people who were outside the regulations set forth by national to attend an event or outing so they didn't have national's blessing. And I'm hoping that this would be the primary insurance because I can't think of any scouters in my troop that have a separate personal liability umbrella policy.

As far as CPR goes, I only teach AHA Healthcare Provider. The way the course is set up, a 5th grader could easily learn how to perform CPR on the adult, child and infant; use an AED and perform the Heimlich manuever.

Hind sight 20/20 reminds me of the 7 Ps - Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. May or may not be applicable in this situation but it made me think of it nonetheless.

Moose, would I take out the scale and ask him to hop on? Yes ma'am, I would in a heartbeat, just prior to the event or trip. I would be polite and explain that anyone refusing to weigh in or exceeding the limits wouldn't be able to attend until the requirements are met.

Guess what? That would unfortunately include me because I exceed the weight requirements for my height. So beginning tomorrow I will be at the gym working on MY spare tire.

Brent is right. Weight isn't the only thing that would keep someone from attending.

J-Stroke, to answer your last question, if I were on the jury and were going strictly by what BSA national published in the height/weight requirements, I would have to find for the plaintiff.

Since I do have a son by an ex-wife who is in scouts and I lost him due to your scenario, I'm really unsure what I'd do. If it were my son in that role, I'm finding it hard to believe (unless proven otherwise) that just 15 extra pounds of ground round in and of itself would cause him to collapse without underlying issues that you weren't made aware of.

Unless specified as DUI Other, I associate DUI with alcoholic beverages simply because I have charged people with both and in my state there is a clear definition between the two. But I guess that's where I get in trouble believing that people may know the difference.

The situation should be considered on its merits. If, as Calico said, the case was one like driving after leaving a doctor's or dentist's office then I may look at this a little differently. Or if the lad had been driving while taking pain meds for kidney stone then I may feel the same way.

We are human in making mistakes. But we are also human in placing degrees on those mistakes made by others and the degree to which they are punished.

Because we don't know and will probably never know if there was some underlying medical issue besides being overweight in the Florida Everglades death related case, how many of us will put ourselves in the line of fire and abide by the height and weight chart set forth by national for scouts and scouters alike? How many of us will be strickly by the book on this?

How many of us will look the scout, parents and scouter in the face and say, "Little Johnnie/Mrs. Doe/ASM Doe let me measure your height and stand on this scale so I can weigh you. Well, because you don't meet the height/weight requirements as set forth by BSA National, you can't go with us to this event or outing." Or, "You can't go because your doctor said you were overwieght according to the chart. I'm sorry, but if I allow you to go and something were to happen to you I could be sued."

Will you be the one to cave in to the groaning and weeping from Little Johnnie and his parents? I wonder after the previously mentioned lawsuit how deep of pockets national will have?

It makes one think.

I think EMT training would be great if some of our scouters wanted to take it and get nationally registered. I hate to throw water on the fire but is is going to happen? No.

Why?

1)The course fee starts at $500 in my area.

2)The course is 110 hours long = two nights/week at four hours/night @ 13.75 weeks, in addition to 12 hours of ER clinical and 5 documented emergency runs in an ambulance.

3)the independent study time involved

4)the national registry test

5)the cost to be nationally registered

6)the cost and time of keeping up with 48 hours of continuing education, healthcare CPR/AED re-cert, a 24 hour refresher course and national registry fees every two years