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Trail Life confused over who they are?????

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  • #31
    After reading the TLUSA forums it is a conservative Christian scouting program open to everyone (wink, wink) but will only be charted through conservative Christian churches (those that still ban gay ministers and members). TLUSA leaders must believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity and be pure (permitted to have sex only if they are married and only with their biological-correct spouse of the opposite sex). They are essentially the boy version of American Heritage Girls and have even partnered up with AHG.

    Comment


    • #32
      What is the "wink, wink" for? There's nothing nefarious or sneaky about who they are and what they want to do.

      Leaders have to be Christian. They define what they mean by Christian. If non-Christian kids want to go along they're welcome but told they will be part of a Christian youth group. How is any of this different from my local Catholic church's youth basketball team?

      If that's not your cup of tea then "move on" and don't be a hater about it.

      Comment


      • #33
        For all the talk of BSA units being Chartered, owned and operated by the church they meet at, It sure gets a big reaction when someone proposes to build a scouting group that is actually an integrated part of the church they meet at.

        Comment


        • Huzzar
          Huzzar commented
          Editing a comment
          The left wing haters are gonna hate, TonyH. Simple as that.

      • #34
        Yeah DigitalScout (wink, wink)

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        • #35
          I just wanted to point out their hypocrisy of trying to come off like "everyone is welcome" because they aren't. It's a farce. The entire top-down leadership is white, evangelical/conservative Christian males. The purpose of their formation was so they can be with their own kind and I'm pretty sure that means no Jews, African-Americans, or immigrants. Here are some photos of their convention. It doesn't look like an "everyone is welcome" type of group. http://snapwidget.com/tags/?id=trail...a#.UjnadWTXg-h

          I'd have more respect for them if they just said that "Christian boys and their families are welcome to join." How hard is that?

          I sincerely hope they succeed as they seem like a well-intentioned group for conservative, evangelical Christians in the BSA to flock to.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Um, those pics show at least one non-white guy. Maybe the only one, who knows. Conservative, evangelical Christians do come in many colors. Not a fan and certainly many are racists, but not all, and I have not heard any of the typical code words yet. I also have to admit non-whites are severely under represented in the Cub and BS programs from what I have seen.

            Time will tell, the Tea Party couldn't hide their true colors for long and this group won't either if that is on their agenda.

            How one can expect to build good citizens by only associating with those of the same religion in this country is the major flaw as I see it. This is a problem within many BSA units as well.
            Last edited by King Ding Dong; 09-18-2013, 02:09 PM.

          • DigitalScout
            DigitalScout commented
            Editing a comment
            You're right! And he looks extremely glad to meet Mike Huckabee.

            I stand corrected - TLUSA is a model of diversity (wink, wink).

          • DigitalScout
            DigitalScout commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't mean to imply the TLUSA is some white supremacist group or anything like that. But they are creating a monochromatic environment which often breeds contempt for outsiders.

        • #36
          I find it humorous that the folks that were pushing the conservatives out of the organization and now spending their time wringing their hands about the membership requirements of their new organization. You won folks! Congrats! Now, what are you doing for the new BSA? You all are like 60s radicals who spent their time fighting "the man" only to find out that they have become "the man" and don't know what to do anymore. Time to lead folks. Build a new beautiful diverse BSA and draw folks and money back into the fold. That's the promise, right?

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            DC, I still don't understand how the local option was forcing an opinion on morality on another group ? The proposed policy would have left the churches to do exactly what they were doing.

          • click23
            click23 commented
            Editing a comment
            dcsimmons, I really doubt any youth protection policies will change. If you take a look at the Learning for Life YPT, where there are no membership standards, it is the same as Venturing except that some of the terminology has changed. And if you have one boy that you say cannot shower or tent with other boys, that could be considered discrimination and no one wants that label.

          • dcsimmons
            dcsimmons commented
            Editing a comment
            KDD, for many folks it is guilt by association. We all belong to the BSA and therefore, by definition, either support or silently tolerate the policies thereof. For many folks that simply not a tenable situation. And the choice of revolution like Moose suggests simply isn't worth the effort. When put into a position to choose between their values and a volunteer organization, the decision to leave is simple. During the debate we were often told about liberal families who refused to put their kids in scouting because of the old policy. There were some on this board who threatened to take their kids out of scouting if the vote went the other way. Same coin, opposite side.

        • #37
          I find this humorous: on the Trail LIfe forum a Mormon asked that the Statement of Faith be modified because Mormons don't believe in the Trinity nor the divinity of Jesus. He was told in no uncertain terms "no", that he was welcome to participate but he couldn't be leader. It appears the sword of exclusion cuts both ways. Actually, I find it ironic, not humorous.

          Comment


          • Huzzar
            Huzzar commented
            Editing a comment
            What is worse, explicitly defining what you mean by the term "Christian" or using a wishy washy requirement that you believe in a Supreme Being then making it so weak that the only people that don't make the cut are atheists but not Buddhists?

            FYI, Mormons have been considered a non-Christian cult by many non-Mormons for most of their existence. Read this article about how the LDS decided that black people were cursed with dark skin and then were not cursed anymore and you'll get an idea of why other denominations have problems with their theology.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/op...on-church.html

        • #38
          I find it humourous that the silhouette on the patch looks like Iron Mike in front of Bldg 4 at Ft. Benning.

          Comment


        • #39
          It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes it is a pity that happens. Unfortunately one need only look at the most vocal evangelical Christians to see why that happens. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist Missionary over a whole county of churches in Arkansas and I spent many summers down there with those folks. Nice people but racist with a capital R.

          • WAKWIB
            WAKWIB commented
            Editing a comment
            I would definitely buy part of your argument if this was 50 years ago. Now it's just an easy excuse to paint with a broad-brush.

          • qwazse
            qwazse commented
            Editing a comment
            Unfortunately, I have experiences similar to KDD's that are much more recent.

        • #40
          Huzzar, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that the name of your local Catholic youth basketball team is probably either something like St. Mary's (for example) Basketball Team or the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) Basketball Team, or something else that tells the world, World, we're a Catholic-sponsored basketball team. Which doesn't mean there might not be a Jewish kid or Hindu kid on the team, but if the parents of the Jewish kid want to know why there is a game scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or no game scheduled on Easter, the answer is, look at the name of the team. The local Jewish synagogue may also have a basketball team, maybe its called the Beth Israel youth basketball team, and the parents of the one Catholic kid on the team shouldn't be surprised that maybe there is a game on Easter, and none on Rosh Hashanah. And so on and so forth.

          Trail Life can name itself what it wants (within the bounds of intellectual property law, which doesn't appear to be a problem), but it is also legitimate to point out that nothing in the group's name suggests that adults need to sign on to a Trinitarian Christian statement of faith in order to be leaders. It also is legitimate to point out that the "open to all youth" is slightly disingenuous when the leaders have to conform to certain religious principles -- but hey, if they are a little disingenuous, maybe a little tricky or clever in their wording, well, they have a good role model (heh heh) in the current leadership of the BSA. In some ways they are being MORE honest than the BSA. As I have said a number of times over the years, while the BSA claims to be "absolutely nonsectarian", the fact is that the religions (or parts of religions) that have as part of their religious principles that gay people should NOT be excluded, are treated like "second-class" religions. (Examples would be Reform Judaism, United Church of Christ, many Episcopalian churches, some Methodist, some Presbyterian, etc.) The BSA will take your money, enroll you and your children as members, but when it comes to your unit's freedom to make decisions about who should be a leader, the BSA dictates that you obey the values-system of some OTHER religion, which on that issue are contrary to the beliefs of your own religion. This isn't advertised anywhere, it's just pointed out by troublemakers like me. (And yes, I continue to be a BSA leader, because I think the good still far outweighs the bad, and things will change someday.) And then some religions are really treated more like "third-class" religions, for example Wicca and UUA (at least in the past, not sure about currently.) At least Trail Life is a little more up front about it.

          So, nobody's perfect. I wish Trail Life success within the sphere of what they are trying to be, and I hope the BSA will someday soon fully live up to the ideals that it represents. (And if that isn't clear enough for everybody, I think that means rescinding the ban on openly gay leaders.)

          One thing I do have to say, in agreement with Eagledad and some others who have posted today -- there is NO evidence that Trail Life intends to discriminate on the basis of race. Let's not make those kinds of accusations based on a few photos of who was able to attend a particular event. If they do struggle to remain "demographically representative", well again, they do have a "role model" in the BSA.
          Last edited by NJCubScouter; 09-18-2013, 04:40 PM.

          Comment


          • Huzzar
            Huzzar commented
            Editing a comment
            This is verbatim from the flyer they've produced to hand out to prospective members and parents. Show me where they are being disingenuous. How could you not figure out they're a Christian youth group?

            All boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. However, all adult leaders must sign a Christian statement of faith. All program elements are taught from a Christian worldview, with God’s truth woven into the very fabric of the program.

        • #41
          Nobody said that Trail Life is a racist group. They seem like a live-and-let live organization and want to do their own thing which is all well and good. I was merely pointing out that they have set up a qualification system to guarantee a very homogeneous group. An outsider may not feel very welcome. And I think that is the intention.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Tribal Life USA

          • Huzzar
            Huzzar commented
            Editing a comment
            You didn't say but you imply it. (wink, wink)

        • #42
          It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

          I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

          On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

          With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

          Stosh

          Comment


          • DigitalScout
            DigitalScout commented
            Editing a comment
            Fighting racism is everyone's moral responsibility. Maybe you don't want to get involved or feel it's not your fight. But your silence is what racists count on to flourish. Racism is everyone's problem. If you don't speak up against it, then your silence condones it.

          • Merlyn_LeRoy
            Merlyn_LeRoy commented
            Editing a comment
            You need to consider race when it's a motive to a crime, or you're simply ignoring the motive for the crime.

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            race isn't an issue till it is.

            Ever receive significantly poorer service than the folks your dining with???

            Or

            How about no food before the people with you got their checks?????

            or

            The Profiling stop by LEO

        • #43
          To an extent I agree with you jblake.. But, I think with BSA, it was that the group formed, then over the years the people in the group grew apart in beliefs on which path to take, so the division occured. Kindof a wake up call to Liberal when in the 1990's the conservatives created rules the liberals did not care for and started kicking people who were once welcomed out of BSA.. Then for 10 years we have been fighting with each other.. Got louder over the years as more people took on the liberal point of view and conservatives started to loose the battle.. Same battle is being waged in Churches now.. When the Conservatives have the upper hand, the Liberals just continue to fight for change.. When the liberals win the battle, the conservatives pick up their marbles and leave to create their newly formed Conservative church.. I don't see this changing..

          It might take another 50 to 100 years, but this new TL organization (if it survives that long) will also start having members grow and have changing attitudes and will want those reflected in TL program, and thus the battle in TL will start up. It is the cycle of life and a long living organization takes on a life of it's own, it either evolves with time or becomes extinct.

          Comment


          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue just as it has since day one.... That what was surprising with the Founding Father's documents. Freedom for all is a concept that simply cannot be accepted by the us/them people. Letting people live in a way they wish basically usurps their power base, something they cannot tolerate.

            Stosh

        • #44
          Moose, A lot of folks call that standing on principle. Stay and fight for yours, that is your right. But do not deny folks who disagree the right to follow theirs. Regardless, the debate is over and nobody here has answered my question. Why do any of us care about what TLUSA is doing? They made their decision and left, which is what they said they would do. Why are scouters in the BSA taking pot shots at them and their organization?

          Comment


          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            Because all of a sudden there's a cause to point out that there are the real people over here and the not real people over there.

            Some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining about something.

            If these people want to do something else, what business is it of mine? None whatsoever!

            MYOB used to mean something in a free society. It only goes to show how much freedom we've lost over the past 200+ years.

            Stosh

          • DigitalScout
            DigitalScout commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't think anyone really cares what the TLUSA does; it's probably just fascination and something to debate for fun.

            Stosh - the liberties of one person often infringes on the liberties of another and that's where the conflict arises. I think people should be free to smoke. But I don't want to breathe their cancer-causing exhaust because that infringes on my rights. So who's liberty prevails?

            Conservatives talk big about freedom and liberty but they are right there getting into other peoples' business when two gay people want to marry or when someone needs marijuana for medical treatment or when a terminally ill person wants a dignified exit from this life or a woman wants to terminal a pregnancy.

        • #45
          There have been some comments in this thread on the idea that the YP guidelines may be modified as a result of the change being made to the youth membership policy. It appears that the guidelines will not be modified. There is a document on the BSA web site (dated August 2013) that contains guidance for units on implementing the policy change. (I am not sure what the BSA has done to make sure people are aware of this information, other than putting it on their own web site. I have not seen any discussion of it in this forum.) I tried to cut and paste parts of this document but it is formatted in a way that makes that very difficult - for me, at least. Maybe someone else can figure it out.

          Suffice it to say that this document contains some statements that are going to be viewed differently by different people in this forum. On the "tenting" issue, for example, it basically says that the local units can figure out the tenting arrangements for themselves, which is what I have been saying for years. The whole theme of the document is that very little will change. There is a question in the "FAQ" about to do if a Scout tells you he is attracted to persons of his own gender, and I am pleased to see that the answer makes fairly clear that such a statement does NOT amount to "flaunting" of a Scout's orientation. In other words, a Scout can be openly gay as long as all that's involved is talking. That is my interpretation, anyway.

          A discussion of this document probably should be in its own thread, but here is the document: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...tation_FAQ.pdf

          Comment


          • Huzzar
            Huzzar commented
            Editing a comment
            There are some "training" slides there too but basically National has pushed it back to the Units.
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