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  • Webelos & Canoeing

    I pretty much know the answer already here, but wanted to see if others saw the confusion as well. It clearly states in multiple locations on the scouting.org site, as well as the Safety Afloat training course, that any activities involving Webelos and Canoeing must only be at District or Council run events. However, within the Aquanaut badge section of the handbook, one of the optional requirements is "6. With an adult on board, show that you know how to handle a rowboat" and also further on pages 98-100 there is a section on "Aquanauts Are Safe Boaters" and talks about what a scout should know while on a vessel. There are absolutely no references to the BSA rules for Safety Afloat or District/Council events.

    There may be Webelos dens out there planning activities like canoeing, under the assumption that it is OK for the sole purpose of completing the Aquanaut Badge.

    I think the handbook needs to be amended and clarified. Who's attention should this be brought to?

    ENV

  • #2
    A Row boat is different from a canoe. Row boats are less tippy. The aquanaut badge specifically says to use a rowboat for the achievement. I don't know how that could be interpreted as "canoe".

    Comment


    • King Ding Dong
      King Ding Dong commented
      Editing a comment
      Clearly the next GTSS must contain a new section detailing the specs for a rowboat and a canoe. Length, width, length to width ratio and so forth. Illustrations included. The boats used in Crew or whatever its called are more like a canoe than a typical pond rowboat.

      While they are amending the Webelos Handbook they can add a 21st Activity Badge called "GTSS Law" and make it required for AOL. Once Webelos understand how concerned the adults are for their safety all the crossover problems will be solved.

    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      You forgot the companion books

      BSA Dummies guide to Safe scouting
      BSA Dummies guide to common sense
      BSA Dummies guide to GTA

  • #3
    The wording says "And do three of these:" The rowboat is an option, so I suspect it's skipped a lot. If a pool at a swim center has a rescue boat or a boat that they use for this type of activity, then I would suspect under supervision of a trained lifeguard, it could be used.

    If you want to have this amended email program.content @scouting.org. The Cubscout Books and Program are being updated for 2014-2015 due to Task Force 411.

    Comment


    • #4
      Originally posted by christineka View Post
      The aquanaut badge specifically says to use a rowboat for the achievement.
      Herein lies the true problem, not that there is misinterpretation with "canoe". Where is a Webelos scout supposed to use a rowboat, if not with a District/Council run event? This is what is not clear in the handbook.

      @Hueymungus Thanks, I will write to that e-mail address. I suspect it is skipped a lot too.

      ENV

      Comment


      • qwazse
        qwazse commented
        Editing a comment
        Well, when I was a Webelos, there was the Sportsman's club pond near our den leader's house, although most of the time our dads would drop us off to fish, after which we'd go to our DL's house and practice shooting his 38 special.

    • #5
      Yeah, we sorta ignored that whole no-canoeing guideline thing when my son was a cub... Remember that the "G" in G2SS stands for Guide...

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        Not sure about your council...

        But every unit that schedules a float trip is required to file a tour plan or permit. They are required to have a unit leader who has completed Safety afloat and Safe swim defense. I doubt that the pack leadership has the required training and I doubt that your council would have issued a tour plan for the float trip for a Cub Pack.

        So you gotta ask, are the rumors true if things go bad, am I or the Pack leadership liable...

        Of course you could do the old family outing and it isn't really a pack event thing. But then that enters the entire when is it a pack event and when isnt it???

      • Brewmeister
        Brewmeister commented
        Editing a comment
        It was a den outing that we just ran off the grid. The same way we took the Webelos to play lazer tag, and the same way we take our troop to play paintball. I'm sure that will make many heads explode here.

      • dedkad
        dedkad commented
        Editing a comment
        Brew, I wanted to start a whole thread on the subject of who follows the rules 24-7 and who sometimes crosses their fingers and takes their chances, but I figured somebody would really get their knickers in a twist about that.

    • #6
      Thanks all. Alongside safe scouting, I just want to be sure we're always covered under that huge multi-million $ BSA insurance policy. Have heard some horror stories about not following "the Guidelines" when incidents happen. Don't want anyone to lose their house over a canoe!

      ENV

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        We have all heard stories, Do you have any first hand or directly know of a unit or leader that violated teh G2SS and got hung out to dry by council or national.

      • qwazse
        qwazse commented
        Editing a comment
        Have you ever wondered why none of those "horror stories" of denied claims came with a name, unit #, or council?

        Personally I have seen the coverage in action, and details about G2SS were never brought into question. Having the requisite paperwork in place did speed processing of claims, but lacking would not have impeded them. The 1st concern was to make sure our people were taken care of and if possible, made whole.

    • #7
      http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...S/gss02.aspx#i is the current version of safety afloat which covers this situation as well as other aquatics activities. Please note that finishing this during a council / district run event on flat not flowing water is the way to do this as an offiical scouting activity. There are not den or unit aquatics in cub scouts. I'd like to point out to those on the list that are taking a less than conservative approach to this that the thought of loosing a house is notthing to the thought of loosing a kid or participant. Please contact your councils aquatics committee for local guideance and assistance in having this young man achieve the Aquanaut.

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        So brew your spinning tails then......So did ya put paintball and lazer tag on the troop calendar?????? and canoeing on the packs????

        Or was it just a bunch of Friends getting together outside of scouting??????





        Oh my guys still paintball and lazer tag....We even go and shoot other rounds than 22.......

        My sons friends are his patrol mates.....So we go and do things out of scouting as well as in.

      • Brewmeister
        Brewmeister commented
        Editing a comment
        We've done different things on different outings.

        You know, base, sometimes I wonder if you're even actually in scouting or just like to hang out here to create arguments and insult people. I mean, on one hand you literally called KDD a "candy a**," direct quote, which is hardly scoutlike. And now you're getting all over my a** for not being one.

        I just get this vision of a "basementdweller" who is in his basement in his jammies furiously typing on his computer on multiple forums, because you sure seem to have ample time to spend online versus being out in the woods (or the 'hood).

      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        Smart phones are a wonderful thing.

        Most locations have pretty decent coverage.

    • #8
      Thanks Richard. Hence why I originally posted the question in the first place - to be sure there was clarity in the Webelos Handbook in case there are leaders out there "only" following the handbook and not knowing the broader rules around safe scouting.

      ENV

      Comment


      • #9
        I was advised to have the boys do aquanaut with their families on their own time, so as not have to deal with the cub scout safety precautions. My son didn't do the boat part because we just went to the local indoor swimming pool.

        Comment


        • #10
          With an adult on board, show that you know how to handle a rowboat. Hey BD, Notice is doesn't say anything about the rowboat actually being on water. Have a nice weekend.

          Comment


          • Brewmeister
            Brewmeister commented
            Editing a comment
            Nice, basementdweller, real nice... Not only no sense of humor but no scoutlike demeanor either. I feel sorry for the boys in your troop, if you actually do have one.

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Why pity them, they are having a fine time in scouting.

            They are the band of brothers, a true patrol who hang out together inside and outside of scouting.....

            Ya must have missed old KDD's mincing words about auspice and how many boys does it take to have a patrol outing in posts earlier this summer....... That is sort of where his exactly as written comment comes from...... and the basis for mine.

            His troop didn't go canoeing because they were worried about beer drinking college kids on the river. Excuses there are a million of them.

          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Brew, I think we can now add gullibility to his list of attributes.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullibility

        • #11
          A number of years back when I was a Webelos II leader, I took my boys on a canoe trip out to an island where they primitive camped for the weekend. They dug their own latrines, cooked on open fires and had a blast. So how does that violate G2SS? Each canoe had one boy and their father in it. Everyone had life jackets and everything went well until the thunderstorm hit in the night and basically flattened everyone's tent, soaking everything down to the skin.

          To this day, those boys, as adults, still say it was the best outing they were ever on.

          Sometimes adventures really are adventures.

          Stosh

          Comment


          • Brewmeister
            Brewmeister commented
            Editing a comment
            Danger, Will Robinson! Violator! Violator!

            On one hand we have people in these forums complaining that scouting sucks and everything is to prissy. On the other hand everybody is afraid to leave the school gymnasium because the G2SS doesn't say they can. I prefer your approach. Just do what the boys want to do and keep everything above board with the parents.

            We did den camping all the time when my son was a Cub, starting at the (GASP!) Wolf level. That's not following the guidelines either....

          • dcsimmons
            dcsimmons commented
            Editing a comment
            See, you Mr. Brew are a rabble rouser and trouble maker of the first degree. Always with your common sense and have fun ideas. Well, it's all fun and games until somebody gets an eye put out! When we want to go race go-carts or play laser tag we do it with the church youth group.....

        • #12
          I live in an area of Phoenix that gets flood irrigation to water my pasture for the horse. when I take my allotment of water, I get about 6-8 inches of water. Plenty to float the flat bottomed john boat with a couple of webelos in it. actually it will float my canoe in some areas as well.

          yes, here in the desert, my sons got to learn to paddle a boat in the backyard.....

          Comment


          • #13
            I am still interested in hearing from Richardb and the repercussions of not following BSA rules.

            Comment


            • #14
              Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
              I am still interested in hearing from Richardb and the repercussions of not following BSA rules.
              Cub Scouts Assaulted on Canoe Trip; BSA Denies Coverage

              A recent canoe trip has left several young boys injured and the Boy Scouts of America denying any liability for the incident.

              According to Cub Scout Den Leader John Smith, his group of 9-year old boys were on a short canoe outing on Big Lake, accompanied by their parents.

              "Suddenly this guy comes up to us, calling himself Kudu, ranting and raving about the scout charter," said Mr. Smith. "I heard him say, 'You young hoodlums should be back with your den mothers making macaroni art, not out on the water where only red-blooded young men belong! I'll box you about the ears with paddles made in the fashion of those manufactured in 1916!' And he just started wailing on everybody with his paddle."

              But the young boy's nightmare trip had just begun. "Then another guy paddles up, apparently going by the name 'basementdweller.' Starts calling me a candy… well, he starts calling us a bunch of very non-scout-like names. Says he's going to 'turn us in to national for not following the rules,' whatever that means. Says we're not even supposed to be on the water. Starts tipping the boys out of the boats, saying he's the only one who knows the right way to canoe," Smith said.

              Unfortunately for these young, innocent boys, their nightmare trip wasn't over. Upon notifying the local scout office of the incident and injuries, Smith was shocked to learn that national BSA was going to disavow itself of any insurance coverage for the incident.

              "I got a call from some guy named 'Richard' who said that cub scouts aren't allowed to go in canoes. I never heard of such a thing," Smith said. "Apparently it's in something called the 'Gee Too Essess,' which I never got a copy of. Nobody else I know ever heard of it either. It's just heartbreaking."

              On contacting the BSA's national offices in Texas, a spokesperson refused to comment on the incident and instead referred the Journal to a recent press release on the organization's commitment to youth protection.


              Comment


              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Blake I have never been under the illusion that my boys and I are anything more than tick marks on someones ledger....

                So the Ivory tower losing sleep at night over what the mice are doing......Naw.

              • dedkad
                dedkad commented
                Editing a comment
                Thanks for the chuckle, Brew!

              • Brewmeister
                Brewmeister commented
                Editing a comment
                I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

            • #15
              Originally posted by christineka View Post
              A Row boat is different from a canoe. Row boats are less tippy. The aquanaut badge specifically says to use a rowboat for the achievement. I don't know how that could be interpreted as "canoe".
              Ever been in a rowing shell?

              Comment


              • jblake47
                jblake47 commented
                Editing a comment
                Hmmm a flat back canoe with a motor on it? Does that qualify for motor-boating? And where does kayaking fit into all this? If the kayak paddle breaks is it now a canoe? These are some tough questions that maybe some of our legal eagles out there can address.....

                And by the way, I have two freighter canoes that can't be used for the canoeing merit badge because the boys have great difficulty tipping them over. Instead of the v-hull of the conventional canoe, they have wide flat bottoms and after 15+ years of whitewater canoeing, I have never accidentally rolled one in the rapids. I did once in an emergency situation, and as an adult even I had difficulty getting it rolled.

                Stosh
                Last edited by jblake47; 09-17-2013, 08:01 AM.
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