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  • Leader Knots? (Changes to policy)

    I'm sure this subjec has been brought up somewhere in the Uniform Section...but I'm just curious.

    How does everyone feel about the changes to the Leader Award Knots which came out a few months back?

    I've already started to see some issues getting previously awarded knots at the scout office...and I personally don't want to wear a "knot" which I wasn't awarded. Also, there are serious changes to the requirements from the old to the new knots. (i.e. Time requirements almost doubled....)

  • #2
    If a knot is retired and replaced with another knot, i.e. Silver Fawn recipients can wear the Silver Beaver regalia, , since they were officially replaced and consolidated, I would not have any qualms.

    For example. I got the TC DL knot. I would have no problem wearing a CSDL knot with the TC device, if they ever create one.


    • #3
      I have several issues. Example: I have arleady earned my Scout Leader Training Award for the troop. I am currently Pack Trainer. Once I have my 2 years in do I put the Cub Pin on that know along with the Boy Scout Pin? Or just the Cub Pin. In the military, you usuallly do not add a device unless you have received the same award more than once.

      I bought the Pack Trainer knots when I heard the system was changing. Later I found out you had to be finished by the endof 2012. I will have my time up in May 2014. Is it wrong to substitute the older knot?

      My other issue is the changes in the den leader award program. Do you add a pin for the Tiger year, another for Wolf/Bear, and another for Webelos?


      • #4
        You are correct that devices are suppose to be worn on the knot, even if not earned multiple times. Unlike the military, one knot may cover multiple awards, i.e. the youth religious knot covers multiple awards in multiple programs, and the Training Award you have covered not only Boy Scouts, but also Sea Scouts, Exploring prior to1998. and Venturing. Same with the Key. So a device on the knot tells a person in what program and/or what actual award was earned.

        In my case I am suppose to wear on my religious knot a CS, BS, and Sea Scout devices, on my Trainging Award a BS device, and on my Key a district committee device.

        To be honest I don't wear the devices on my knots since I left Supply and needed to wear them to show correct uniforming ( yes I was a full blown Uniform Policeman ). They fall off easily in normal wear unless using an eraser as a backing, are litterally a pain in the chest at times, and, in reference to my Sea Scout device, is considered a restricted item by national and has to be special ordered by the council or take a 60 minute drive to a Scout Shop.

        Now my Training Award medal has the device on it. Don't have the Key medal yet. But eventually when I get it, I'll put a device on it.

        Hope it helps.


        • #5
          I'm sad I never earned the tiger knot. It was black and orange, and I just missed my chance. I'll beat myself up over that for a long time, I think. But I'm looking forward to earning my first den leader knot. I don't really care that the den leader knots are all the same now. I wish they didn't emphasize the differences between tigers, cubs and Webelos.


          • #6
            You could buy one before they go out of stock, and then later on (once time allows) volunteer to lead a Tiger Den, earn the Den Leader Award, and then wear the old Tiger Knot.


            • mozartbrau
              mozartbrau commented
              Editing a comment
              Not sure that's legal in the BSA's eyes.

          • #7
            Thanks for everyone's thoughts. My biggest issue...and perhaps it's just my issue to work the apparent belief by National that the Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting programs are the same, and there-fore deserve the same recognition. I have always maintained...a Tiger den-Leader has a very different job than a WEBELOS or even a Boy Scout leader...which is why I have always maintained they deserve different recognition.

            In the military, if a person earns one award, it is for a certain level of effort. You don't award a different person the same award for a different level of effort. (i.e person A doesn't get a Commendation Medal for what person B gets an Achievement Medal least in theory)!

            So, I totally disagree with this whole system change....a Tiger Den Leader deserves to be recognized for their efforts, and have that recognition stand out from the recognitoin of a Boy Scout Leader or other Den Leader. So what if a leader starts to collect 10 different shows a level of involvement which others should want to emulate! Instead, we're now telling our leaders one is equal to the another.. which we would never do with one of the Scouts!


            • #8
              Not to thread jack, but since I am only an assistant den leader and assistant cubmaster it doesnt look like I'll be earning any knots. I did however earn my AOL as a scout back in the day. Do i need to jump through hoops with council to be awarded this knot or can I just purchase it and throw it on the uniform? Not really sure how the whole adult award program works.


              • #9
                Not sure I'd use the phrase "only an assistant den leader and assistant cubmaster" - They're both important jobs!

                The award for either role is the Scout Leader's Training Award. If you've been in the role for a couple of years now, you might be retroactively eligible for the Cub Scouter Award.


                • #10
                  BTW - for your other question about the AOL. You should just be able to purchase it. I've never needed any paperwork for it.


                  • #11
                    ^^^ Thanks for the answer.

                    And yes I understand what you mean and I am trying to "Do My Best". The hardest part of the whole scout program for me right now is being the assistant. I'm not used to not being able to take full charge of something. This is more of a problem in my Den where I feel it is lacking some structure. I keep trying to really get the kids involved while the leadership is more like just do enough to get by. This is killing me inside. But the new Cubmaster and I really seem to see eye to eye. I think we will make a nice 1-2 punch.

                    Thanks again and sorry for the thread jack!



                    • #12
                      I just purchased 2 AoL knots today. I didn't need any paperwork.

                      FYI: I contacted the district from my youth, and they don't have copies of my Cub Scout records. (and I'm not that old) My District theory is "A Scout is Honest." And to be honest...not that many people wear the AoL knot.


                      • #13
                        Also: If anyone can get 2 of the WEBELOS Den Leader Award Knots (Yellow on yellow on yellow) I would love to be able to award them to my WEBELOS Den Leaders.

                        We did the paperwork in time, but they scout shop here in DE didn't order any replacements back in the fall, and now they can't get them. My Den Leaders could wear the 'new' knot, but I (and they) would rather wear the other knots. Can folks poll their Scout Shops and if anyone can get 2 or even 4... please get back with me.



                        • #14
                          Hi Joe,

                          That was me for the first year. I was there to help, but never was more than extra pair of hands. Over time, the CM found something that he didn't have the cycles for and gave me responsibility for it. It grew to be a pretty major focus for the pack. Now, as CM myself, I would love for an ACM to come to me looking to own something.

                          Since you're friendly with the CM, my suggestion - grab a friendly beverage and spend some time brainstorming on what your role could be.


                          • #15
                            Question. What if I would like to earn one of these Leaders knots, but my pack is not actively participating in the square knot program? Should I encourage that the pack start participating in the program? I feel as though many of the leaders may find this laughable.


                            • Brewmeister
                              Brewmeister commented
                              Editing a comment
                              The knots are all about training, unit performance, and participation at the district level in roundtables and scouting universities to stay trained and informed. If your leaders find those activities "laughable" you have a bigger problem. Go ahead and pass out the forms.

                            • Krampus
                              Krampus commented
                              Editing a comment
                              My District will help process the paperwork for Cub Leader knots. They are usually pretty good but if you want to walk the paperwork around to get it done faster you can do that too. Our Scout Shop usually did not require the paperwork for the Den Leader knots but did for CM knot. Now with the new knots I cannot say. The shop *is* pretty insistant on the District processing the Boy Scout knots.

                              Brewmeister has it right...if they find it laughable they are silly. Leaders who take the knot requirements seriously are trying to develop a quality program.

                              Of course, I *do* find in funny when you see someone with more than 5 or 6 knots. If they are for something achieved (training, exellence in leadership or program) then I get it. If they are for donating money something like that I find those odd. Would rather have the knots be achievement based rather than participation or donating money.