Boy run BORs?

[Fat Old Guy 11]

I read about this in Sturgeon's thread on Eagles and it is an intriguing idea. I'd guess that the Scouts would be much less likely than a parent to let someone slide because "they tried hard" or "they need to feel good about themselves."

 

 

[hops_scout 9]

I dont like the idea for one reason... some people just hate others and will do whatever they can to make that person mad and to make them feel good. I do, though, like the idea of boys being involved in BORs.

[Sturgen 10]

hops_scout i would suggest you read the post but i will summerize for you how that is resolved, the SM, ASM, and/or JASM remind the boys that we dont vote on the person, we vote on thier dedication to scouting, ability to lead and confidence in their skills, if the vote is obviously biased after the first vote you remind them again and hold a second vote, then stick with their second choice, the only time i have seen favortism make a significant change in a vote it was in the scouts favor, and although i was disapointed in the boys, i have a feeling that wouldnt be as big of an issue to you, and since the boys dont see who voted for who there is a relative elimination of peer preasure, if you would like more details feel free to ask anytime

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"some people just hate others and will do whatever they can to make that person mad and to make them feel good."

 

The way that a BOR is run, at least in my part of the world, is the Board discusses the the Scout with him out of the room, with everyone stating their reasons why or why not. If a hateful person was on the board, that would be apparent right away when he says, "I don't think that he really did his knots" when everyone else knows that he did. Peer pressure would then apply when everyone else said, "You ijit, you were there when he did his knots."

 

 

[Bob White 20]

We used to teach that you put butter on burns, that you put tourniquets on arterial bleeding, that you used artificial respiration on drowning victims and that you had scouts do Board of Reviews on other Scouts. USED TO. The BSA learned that none of these practices were effective and in fact in most cases did more harm than good.

 

The BSA has policies that we are required to follow that cover uniforming, safety, advancement and membership. these are not recommendatins, thaey are national polices that individuals and units have no right or authority to alter. A Scout is Trustworthy and Obedient. A scout leader should at least be able to display as much integrity as we expect from the scouts.

 

To have scouts do BORs does not serve the pupose of the Board or serve the needs of scouts or scouting. It is an old method that has been dropped for nearly 20 years and to do it now is a violation of BSA policies. Every scout and parent who is required to submit to one of these boards has a right to know that.

 

There is no justification for not following the BSA polices and regulations.

 

Bob White

[hops_scout 9]

'"some people just hate others and will do whatever they can to make that person mad and to make them feel good."

 

The way that a BOR is run, at least in my part of the world, is the Board discusses the the Scout with him out of the room, with everyone stating their reasons why or why not. If a hateful person was on the board, that would be apparent right away when he says, "I don't think that he really did his knots" when everyone else knows that he did.'

 

 

 

I know they discuss the Scout with him out of the room.... that's how it's done here too.

My problem though is that some people would vote against the Scout if it was only done by boys.

 

EXAMPLE-- We had 9 boys eligible for OA election this year. 8 got voted for by the troop. The other one, who is Eagle now, has always been picked on by most people. And especially at Boy Scouts. I would have to say that out of the 9 eligible, only 4 were, in my opinion, should have been voted for. He was one of them.

 

The rest of them are the laziest people in the troop, but b/c it's all based on popularity for them, they all got in, and he didnt.

[Sturgen 10]

why discuss the scout when hes out of the room? then they get little if any feed back on how hes doing, how do you expect him to improve? In 20 boy lead boards of review i have never seen one turn cruel, or have any sort of hate or dislike become apparent, and believe me, there are a few boys in there that at times have come close to blows, mostly brothers

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Sturgen asked, "why discuss the scout when hes out of the room?"

 

For the same reason that a jury's deliberations take place outside of the courtroom.

 

We talk. We discuss. We say, "We need to talk to the SM . . ." Much is discussed that the Scout and often no one other than the board needs to be privy to. After a decision is reached, the Scout is brought back in and given a summary. "You didn't pass because you said that you didn't actually have to do any cooking. You need to re-do requirement X and come back."

 

You've now seen one the of biggest problems that happens when Bob White gets involved. He is a zealot who worships the word from Texas. Right now he rants against the idea of Scouts on a BOR. However, if National handed down a change that said Scouts should do BORs, he'd back that idea 100%. He'd never say, "Boy that was a stupid change but we gotta live with it."

 

Discussion isn't in BW's vocablulary. "What if . . ." and "why don't we . . " are unacceptable unless he is trying to prove his point. You see, ideas different than BSA's official policies are only supposed to come from specially annointed Scouters who have been admitted to the inner circle. Regular unit Scouters and, heaven forbid, Scouts have no place daring to have ideas and, if they dare to have ideas of their own, they shouldn't dare to utter them or discuss them with others.

 

Bob White rambled, "First aid, blah, blah, butter, blah, blah. . . "

 

You really love that first aid thing don't you. What's this, the third or fourth time that you've trotted that out. That seems to be the only example that you can trot out but the funny thing is that I've gone back 50 years in BSA handbooks and I can't find a reference to butter on burns or a reference to tournequets that is significantly different from what is taught today.

(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[Bob White 20]

Sturgen,

In scouting we teach citizenship. Part of being a good citizen is obeying the laws and rules of a society. In the scouting society we have rules that you as a leader are required to follow. If you disagree with them, work to change them from within the organization.

 

As you point out the program does make changes from time to time. But to simply ignore the rules, and do what you want because you want to do them, is a horrible example to set as a leader and as a citizen.

 

What rules do expect your scouts to follow, all of them, or just the ones they agree with?

 

Bob White

[Sturgen 10]

if following blindly makes you a citizen then we would be speaking with a british accent and boiling sheep guts for food.

i am working to change them from inside, but im not going to apply lip to cheek to get to a regional or national position to do so, i work hard to provide the best program for the boys

heres a bit on one of my battles i won, that you would support, my troop as a youth never went to resident camp, hadnt for 20 or so years and never attended any council events including roundtables, since i joined and began being a "poor citizen" as you define it we have attended res camp 5 times and have been the entirety of one roundtable to teach the district the values of a true boy lead troop

as you define a citizen bob, im glad to be an outlaw, for you and you alone i shall design the rebel flag of scouting and formaly begin my charge on texas, lets see by bsa policy i can only be armed with .22's, 12 gauges, and .50 cals with 25 grains of powder, well that cuts down my arms a bit but i guess i will have to do then you have the 2DLS stuff egad its going to be complicated

[evmori 11]

"In the scouting society we have rules that you as a leader are required to follow."

 

I thought you didn't have to follow to be a leader?

 

Ed Mori

A blessed Christmas to all!

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt 11]

Sheesh. Can I suggest that if this thread continues, it should focus on WHY boy-run BORs are or are not a good idea? To me, they are clearly a bad idea--the boys don't have the maturity to judge each other fairly. They are much more likely to support those who are popular. The "outcast" scout will never get his advancement, no matter how hard he works, under such a regime. Boys can be cruel, and setting them up in judgement over each other creates an opportunity for cruelty to come out.

All that being said, the boys probably do have useful knowledge and insights about their peers that the adults on the BOR should know. If the lines of communication in the troop are effective, they will know it.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"the boys don't have the maturity to judge each other fairly"

 

What's being judged at a BOR? I'd view it more of an exercise like grading each other's papers. Did the Scout complete the requirements?

[Hunt 11]

Sturgen's description makes it sound more like a Maoist self-criticism session. It's not a conference with a few boy leaders to make sure the boy is ready for his real BOR--it's an inquisition in front of all the boys with rank higher than Scout. And if they're just determining if the requirements have been met, why do they need to vote? Sturgen essentially admits that they use judgements on Scout Spirit to hold back advancements--this is not something boys should be voting on, in my opinion.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" Sturgen essentially admits that they use judgements on Scout Spirit to hold back advancements--this is not something boys should be voting on, in my opinion. "

 

Don't know about that. A few years ago, one of our ASPLs was caught egging a house, an ASM's house to make things even more interesting. The SPL wanted to kick him out of his position which would have kept him from making Life and prohibit him from going on any special trips until summer camp. However, the cool heads of the adults intervened and said that it would be unfair to make his behavior outside of Scouting have a negative impact on his advancement. Go figure.