Board of Review Problem

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Think what you want, Bob "What? Me Live By the Scout Law?" White.

[Bob White 20]

If you choose to leave the solution to the PLC be sure to first share the national advancement policies and procedures that govern advancement with them. it would be counter-productive to have them decide on a solution that then had to be refused for being outside the policies of the BSA.

 

Bob White

[evmori 11]

I agree that BOR's are not for retesting but what do you do in the following situation.

 

Sammy 2nd Class is participating in his BOR. One of the board members asks Sammy "Who taught you your knots for this rank?" Sammy answers "No one." You look in his handbook & notice there are initials beside the requirement indicating it is completed. Besides investigating who signed off on a requirement that shouldn't have been, whoudln't it be proper to ask Sammy to tie the required knots?

 

Ed Mori

[Bob White 20]

"Sammy 2nd Class is participating in his BOR. One of the board members asks Sammy "Who taught you your knots for this rank?" Sammy answers "No one."

 

Ed, did it occur to anyone on the Board that Sammy taught himself the knots through studying the illustrations in the handbook and practicing them?

 

You state in your first sentence that you know that the BOR is not the place to retest. Then in that last sentence you ask if the Board could retest in certain circumstances. I think you know the answer Ed, you said it yourself in your opening sentence.

 

The BOR can ask HOW Sammy was tested. He can say he used the knots to erect a a _______(fill in the blank) at camp. The senior patrol leader saw it and asked who built it. The patrol Leader pointed to Sammy who said that "yes, I did it after breakfast. The SPL had Sammy get his handbook and he signed off on the requirement.

 

THe Board says "great" and moves on to the next question. They absolutely cannot ask Sammy to tie the knots he used for them to see.

 

Bob White

[Eamonn 61]

Maybe I was a bit testy on Friday.

If I came off sounding rude. Please accept my apologies.

I know that Bob White will tell me that we no longer use the term "Save Haven".

Still I like it a lot and will continue to use it.

Scouting is and should be a save haven.

A place where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit.

Maybe we can start here in these forums?

Everyone who has posted is in agreement that "Re-testing" at the BOR is not a good idea.

There is at times a need to make sure that the Scout does know the skill that someone has passed him on.

We really do not a scout tying a Granny knot in place of a bowline.

This is where program comes in.

At the base of the rappelling tower or better still the troop meeting before everyone practices tying a bowline, if Timmy can't tie the knot his Patrol Leader goes over it with him.

The Patrol Leader knows how to tie the knot because he practiced it at the PLC, with the SPL and the Scoutmaster.

At the BOR,the Scoutmaster asks "How are you coming along with your knot tying?

Timmy informs him that he used to have a problem with the bowline, but thats now history."

I think if we adults were very honest and thought back to some of the skills that we "Passed" as young Scouts and no longer use. We would have a hard time.

What we need to do is create an environment, where the program leads to advancement.

Not where Advancement is the program.

Where and when the program is balanced and active there will never be a need for "Retesting". Not at the BOR or any other place.

Eamonn

[Eamonn 61]

Maybe I was a bit testy on Friday.

If I came off sounding rude. Please accept my apologies.

I know that Bob White will tell me that we no longer use the term "Save Haven".

Still I like it a lot and will continue to use it.

Scouting is and should be a save haven.

A place where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit.

Maybe we can start here in these forums?

Everyone who has posted is in agreement that "Re-testing" at the BOR is not a good idea.

There is at times a need to make sure that the Scout does know the skill that someone has passed him on.

We really do not a scout tying a Granny knot in place of a bowline.

This is where program comes in.

At the base of the rappelling tower or better still the troop meeting before everyone practices tying a bowline, if Timmy can't tie the knot his Patrol Leader goes over it with him.

The Patrol Leader knows how to tie the knot because he practiced it at the PLC, with the SPL and the Scoutmaster.

At the BOR,the Scoutmaster asks "How are you coming along with your knot tying?

Timmy informs him that he used to have a problem with the bowline, but thats now history."

I think if we adults were very honest and thought back to some of the skills that we "Passed" as young Scouts and no longer use. We would have a hard time.

What we need to do is create an environment, where the program leads to advancement.

Not where Advancement is the program.

Where and when the program is balanced and active there will never be a need for "Retesting". Not at the BOR or any other place.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"At the BOR,the Scoutmaster asks "How are you coming along with your knot tying? "

 

Danger, Will Robinson! Procedural Violation!

 

The Scoutmaster shouldn't be at the BOR.

 

By the way Bob White, since you're so good at being pedantic, I'll do the same. A BOR can re-test, however, a BOR may not restest.

 

[Bob White 20]

Actually Eamonn even though we cannot promise a sfe haven according to BSA lawyers, I agree it is a good goal for all units to have in mind. If A unit takes testing seriously then retesting would not be needed. Again we come back to the responsibility of the Scoutmaster to train junior leaders, and the responsibility of Charter organizations to select and recruit responsible adult leaders.

 

In response tp FOG. No, a Board of review may not and, cannot, retest scouts. They can however make sure that the requirement was accomplished in a manner according to the Scout Handbook. Please take time to familiarize yourself with the advancement policies in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.

 

Bob White

[evmori 11]

And after that the board asks Sammy "How did you learn your knots?" and Sammy answers "I never did."

Since the board may not retest does this give them the option to have Sammy show them he can tie his required knots for rank? And since the requirement was already signed off do we have to accept it was signed off when we know it wasn't completed?

 

I know the problem stems from the person who signed off on the requirement.

 

Ed Mori

[Bob White 20]

Actually the problem extend to the SM who is responsibl;e for training and evaluating the scout who passed him incorrectly.

 

The board is welcome to ask how the scout learned but they are charged with checking to see it was earned correctly not so much how it was learned.

 

If it was not earned according to the handbook the board can reycle the scout to pass it according to the requirements.

 

They CANNOT retest at the borad. The rules are specific if you read the manual.

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Ah, Bob "English is not my native language" White misses the point.

 

A BOR can do whatever they wish to do. They can ask the Scout to play the fiddle while they do Irish step dancing. They can play craps with the Scout. They can even make the Scout sit in a comfy chair.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

What scouting resource do you have to support that opinion FOG?

 

By the way FOG you mistype from time to time too.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NeilLup 13]

To continue evmori's thought:

 

BOR: "Where do you learn your knots?"

 

Sammy "I never did."

 

BOR: "Gee, knots are a requirement. Who passed you on knots?"

 

Sammy: "I'm not sure."

 

BOR: "Let's take a look at your book. I see that your Patrol Leader signed that. Do you remember where he signed that?"

 

Sammy: "No, I don't remember."

 

BOR: "Well since that is a requirement, would you mind if we talk with your Patrol Leader about when and how you passed it. Maybe you would like to practice up and review knots with your patrol leader. Let's look at the other requirements. Are there any other requirements where you are uncomfortable."

 

 

etc.etc.etc.

 

I'm not so naive to think that this is easy. But it IS possible for the BOR to monitor and guide the advancement process without retesting. The SCOUT HIMSELF can always defer advancement. The trick is to get the Scout (and his parents) to agree with deferral.

[sst3rd 129]

I thought it's been so simple over the years. As the SM, I know who are the qualified youth and adult leaders who can sign off requirements. When I review the Scout's book during the Scoutmaster's Conference and before the Board of Review, I can catch any problems at that point and advise corrective actions.

Questions like "Who taught you your knots for this rank?" are interesting conversation starters, but not BOR questions. The requirements are signed off. Move on from there. You people are getting a bit tedious.

 

sst3rd

[Bob White 20]

sst3rd If you check the responsibilities of the BOR you will see that along with discussing the scouts growth and the scouts evaluation of the troop program, the board is responsible for checking to see if the scout performed the requirements in the book.

 

I agree that it should not be an issue in a properly lead unit. But that is what the BOR is checking. To see if the advancement is being properly administrated. As members of the committee the Board has a responsibility to see that the program is being followed and delivered.

 

bob White