SM trying to change my son's personality

[goodkidsmom 10]

My son is very quiet and not interested in sports or physical activities. He's an honor student, audio-visual aide and stage crew manager at school, and does a lot of service / volunteer activities. He has held positions like Librarian or Scribe and taken them seriously, organizing books and files, creating activity and attendance charts on the computer, and so forth. He does not like to take part in active games like kickball, brawl-ball, etc.

 

The SM is quite different - a very gung-ho kidding-around type of man. He often tells my son that he has to participate more and be more assertive. That's ok as long as it's encouraging, but now the SM has refused to sign off on his SM Conference for Life rank because of it.

 

My son has been ready for this SM Conference and Board of Review for several months, but the SM and/or Committee Chair keep putting him off for various reasons - he has asked for these things to be scheduled over a half-dozen times, but either there's not time, or they've been busy and he hasn't interrupted, etc. (Remember, A Scout is Courteous? My son isn't the in-your-face type, and if the SM is busy talking to someone else he won't go up and say "hey, let's do my SM Conference".)

 

In fact he DID the SM conference a month or so ago with one of the ASMs, but the Committee Chair said he wouldn't accept it, it had to be re-done with the SM. So my son finally got it scheduled with the SM tonight, and the SM refused to sign off, saying my son needs to be more assertive.

 

I guess I have to add that my son is clinically depressed and on medication. As I see it, the SM is messing with my kid's head. He's trying to make him into something he's not, and in so doing may well be harming him psychologically. Beyond that, where do the Scout Oath or Law say "A Scout is Assertive"?

 

He also commented that "some of the other kids think" that my son always has to do everything with his Father. His father is very active in the troop as a committee member, goes to every meeting, goes to summer camp, goes on most activies and has led some. Since when is it a problem to have a father who is active in scouting, and what difference does it make what "the other kids think"?

 

My son did not stick up for himself during this meeting, and did not point out the very long list of volunteer and service activities or campouts and activities (he does all the volunteer / service activities, and goes on all historical hikes / trips as well as other hikes / trips, skipping the most physical things). He also has far more badges than anyone else in the troop except one boy who just got Eagle. He is never in trouble. Obviously he's active, helpful, courteous, etc.....but no, he is not assertive.

 

So, after all that, the questions - what do you think of all this? Does this sound right for a SM conference? Does the SM have the right to add a requirement, especially one that is trying to change a boy's personality? Do you see this as a problem, or is this standard stuff? Do the SM manuals - I assume such a thing exists - say that the SM is supposed to try to make kids be more assertive and other things that aren't listed in the boys' handbook?

 

Now I'm sure some of you are thinking "uh huh, this is Mom, of course Mom thinks her kid can do no wrong, obviously there are two sides to every story, etc". Despite that, I have really tried to be frank in my post, and I am not exaggerating my son's strengths nor distorting the problems with the SM.

 

I'd appreciate comments on this - thanks!

[FScouter 24]

A Scoutmaster conference is not a pass/fail discussion. The Scoutmaster is out of line if has refused to sign the book indicating the SM conference took place. I'd suggest the boy call the committee chair and request a date for the board of review. He should make it clear that the Scoutmaster conference took place. If the CC refuses to schedule a date, call your unit commissioner and ask for help. Explain that the boy has met all the requirements, yet the committee refuses to schedule the board of review. If you don't have a unit commissioner, talk to the district commissioner or district executive.

[goodkidsmom 10]

Thanks for the quick reply, FScouter. We will do what you suggest.

 

This SM does sometimes insist on his own interpretations of requirements, as opposed to accepting what is stated in the handbook. We have brought some - not all - of these up with the SM over the years, and I'm sure he doesn't like us being critical of his way of doing things.

 

Nobody can fault this SM on his enthusiasm - he really wants all the kids to participate and have fun - but not everyone has fun the same way. I didn't mention it in my l-o-n-g message above (sorry!), but in my response to the bully posts below I noted that the SM may to some extent be annoyed with my son (us?) for making waves about our local bully.

 

I don't want this to become an us-against-him thing, so hope it doesn't have to go to the unit or district. I also don't want to have him turn against my son, though at this point we're thinking of switching troops after he completes Life. (He won't be the first to switch because of some of the issues I've raised.)

 

OK, I've rambled on enough - thanks for listening!

 

[Mike F 10]

Mom,

This certainly sounds out of line. Trying to draw your son into the action in order to get him to expand his comfort zone is certainly laudable, but not a requirement. Since your son is undergoing treatment for depression, I would think he qualifies for some consideration as a special needs scout and the first step is for the SM to get some training/guidance on how to best help your son achieve his goals.

 

Have you or dad tried to talk to SM without son around? I think he owes you an explanation of why he's holding son back. This will also give you an opportunity to help him better understand your son's condition.

 

If this doesn't help, FScouter's recommendation is right on target. Before going around SM to CC and District, I'd give him a heads up that you're not satisfied with his approach and you plan to elevate. That way he won't be surprised when he gets the next phone call. Do your best to handle with respect and courtesy -- these kinds of things can really blow up, but you have to do what you have to do, so stand firm.

 

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes.

 

-mike

[goodkidsmom 10]

Thanks, Mike F. I don't think his depression to the point to be a special need - but certainly some empathy would be appropriate. I've talked to and emailed SM quite a few times re the depression etc. He seems supportive, but then continues to push for the assertiveness so he's clearly missing the point that trying to make the kid into something he's not is backfiring.

 

Example: My son was planning to go on a weekend campout last winter but on the way broke down crying and was such a wreck he couldn't go - we told SM at the time that he was ill. Later SM commented that the boy didn't fulfill his responsibility that weekend because he was "supposedly" ill, so I told him the truth about why he couldn't go. Then tonight at the SM Conference the SM actually told my son that he had been irresponsible about that campout! The guy is lacking in tact, to say the least.

 

A few weeks ago I talked to SM and CC about the several attempts to schedule the SM Conf and B of Rev, and noted that the boy kept getting put off (later, no time, can't do...) and that each attempt to schedule it was becoming increasingly difficult b/c of the rejection. It didn't do much good....I guess having Mom interfere was another example of the boy not being assertive. Then tonight after the SM Conf my husband talked to SM about the depression, the abundance of service, preference for non-physical activities - SM stuck to his guns about waiting till he sees "a change" and more assertiveness before he'll sign off.

 

My husband will talk to the CC soon, and yes, I'll keep you posted. You guys (?) are great!

Thanks,

Mom

 

 

[scoutmom 10]

The thought I had on this one is to see if you can have your son's physician or mental health professional (who ever is responsible for treating the depression) speak with the SM. Perhaps some insight from a professional regarding how best to understand and work with a child with your son's condition might be helpful. A little education never hurt anyone, and who knows how many other kids might benefit from your SM learning some new methods of handling boys with a variety of needs.

[goodkidsmom 10]

thanks for the suggestion. It's a good one, especially in terms of opening SM's eyes to a variety of kids. SM does need to realize that every boy has different interests and strengths - shouldn't that be obvious? I don't think I'll do it, though, b/c I don't want to harp on the depression aspect - regardless of the depression, the problem here is that SM is playing by his own rules, and that's what my husband and I are going to work on.

Thanks!

[Hunt 11]

It's very difficult to read between the lines on something like this, but I do have a few questions for you. When you say that your son doesn't like to do "physical" things, does that mean that he refuses to join in sports or games with the other Scouts? Does it mean that he doesn't go on campouts that involve physical activity like hiking or swimming? Is he shepherded through all his advancements and merit badges by his dad? Try to imagine how his activity in the troop looks to the other boys (forget the SM for the moment). Would they think that he is "pulling his weight?" Or would they think that he is clinging to his father and not participating with the scouts? As parents, it can be hard for us to see beyond our own child's needs to the needs and expectations of the group--is that part of the problem here? While your son may not like physical activities that much, he is part of a program that has a lot of physical activities--unless he can't do them, maybe he should be challenged to push himself more. All that being said, I agree that it's important to talk to the SM when your son isn't around to make sure you really understand his concerns.

[EagleInKY 14]

It's always difficult to give a recommendation based upon these postings. If everything you said is as you described, I cannot condone the actions of the SM. However - and please don't take offense - I encourage you to consider Hunt's advice. There are often two sides to every story. The SM may be doing what he feels is in the best interest of the boy. We often find ourselves as amateur child psychologists, without any real training except that learned by the seat of our pants. We make decisions based upon what we observe and the feedback we get from the leaders of the troop. Sometimes we make good ones, sometimes not.

 

I've had a particularly challenging young man that I've written about here before. While meeting with his mom & dad, they told me he had "anger manageement issues", and was seeing a counselor. They told me that he doesn't take direction from peers, and essentially asked us to not have a boy-run program. I'm sorry, but that's one of the basic tenets of scouting. Not every unit is boy-run to the same degree, and not every boy can lead to the same degree, but we are all to be boy-run.

 

I give that as an example of a good-hearted parent that was looking out for the best interest of her son. However, the best thing for her son is for him to learn to deal with his issues and participate in the program as it was laid out nearly a century ago. Thankfully, the boy is coming around, and mom & dad are starting to understand.

 

Talk to your SM. Find out why he's doing what he's doing. Provide the expert "testamony" if need be. In the end, come up with a plan that you can mutually agree upon to best develop and nurture your son - within the program of Scouting.

[Bob White 20]

Has the Scoutmaster shared with you or your son where the "assertiveness" requirement is in the handbook? If your report is accurate then the SM has added to the requirements for advancement, something he has no authority to do.

 

His refusal to hold the SM conference is grounds for an appeal, and while it would be unfortunate to risk further damaging your relationship with the SM, he needs to understand that unless he can show a specific requirement from the handbook that has not been met he will either need to schedule the Board of review or expect the appeal process to be undertaken.

 

I would ask for a meeting on neutral territory and other than a regular scout night to discuss the situation.

 

Sorry this is happening to your son.

Good Luck

BW

[scoutingagain 20]

Goodkidsmom,

 

I'm sure your son is a good kid. I would probably like him and have a couple of scouts that might be a lot like him. They are very eager to earn merit badges, attend all the meetings, quickly sign up for merit badge universities, attend parades etc. They are advancing relatively quickly. They excel at the more academic merit badges have earned quite a few. They have achieved the rank of Star and are working their way towards Life. One wanted a SM review and BOR for Life, and I had to remind him that there was a time requirement for participation between the Star and Life Ranks and he would have to wait until the fall.

 

They don't sign up for campouts, unless they are basic car camping and then most of the time when their dads can attend. They don't hike, canoe or sign up for any of the more rigorous physical activities. To be frank, I like these kids. They are courtious, kind, and obedient. For their own sake I would like to see them be more active. One is fairly overwieght and even his dad says, gets little or no physical activity. The other, while not overwieght, is... well not very athletic to say the least. Both scouts will likely earn Life next year.

 

But unless they become more physically active I'm not sure they'll get to Eagle. Neither has started to work on Personal Fitness MB, both have a long way to go to get to the required number of nights for Camping MB and frankly right now, I'm not sure either could do the Bicycling, Hiking or Swimming MBs, not to mention having the assertiveness needed to lead an Eagle project.

 

I am the advancement chair and not their scoutmaster, but would like to see both scouts be more well rounded in their approach to life, for their own sake. Our SM would not do what your SM has done though. If the boys have met the requirements they have earned the ranks. I think the advice provided by Mike F and FScouter are right on the mark for now.

 

However, a scout also promises to "keep myself physically strong..." It sounds to me that while lacking tact, the SM is trying to get your son to challenge himself in other ways. This is no different than a SM trying to encourage a very physically active scout that has trouble with having the discipline to work through some of the more academic aspects of scouting. It sounds to me like the SM is trying to help. Given some information from your Doctor or other professional, maybe he can do a better job. I think if you approach him in the right way, he can help your son develop other aspects of his life.

 

If your son has aspirations towards Eagle, he will need not only strong academic performance, but physical skills, and assertivness to be able to develop, lead and carryout his Eagle project and some of the more physically demanding MBs.

 

I sincerely wish you and your son the best of luck.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

I am sure that if your son decides to attain the Eagle rank he will find within himself the characteristics and strengths need to reach his goal.

 

But millions of fine young men have benefited and grown through scouting without choosing to earn all the ranks. I hope you will continue to support your sons strengths and celebrate whichever positive paths they lead him on. He does not have to fit anyones mold other than the one he creates for himself by doing his best to live by the Oath and Law.

 

[goodkidsmom 10]

Wow, what well thought out replies!

 

I'll try to address them all here:

 

Hunt - in the last year he has gone on NINE weekend or overnight campouts in addition to week-long summer camp. He opted out of ice camping and a Klondike, but the ones he went on included skiing, a historical trail, a mini-camporee, and 2 OA ordeal weekends (one for his ordeal, one as Elongamat). He takes Karate classes and is great at self-defense and helping the younger kids' classes, but the instructors would like him to hit harder..... Two weeks ago we did a short Appalachian Trail hike as a family outing and he had a ball climbing rocks, and last weekend he and Dad went with a Scout group on a 14 mile AT hike with fully loaded backpacks, in preparation for a trip later this summer to Kandersteg International Scout Camp in Switzerland. He has completed the Camping MB and also Snow Sports; I think the rest are the more academic ones. He'll do Swimming at camp this summer.

 

What he does not like and does not participate in unless he has to is when the troop plays "Brawl Ball" or other aggressive sports involving pushing and shoving and kicking balls at each other.

 

Re being with Dad "too much", Dad is usually in committee meetings or with the other adults, he definitely does not cling to Dad, and went on about half of the above without Dad.

 

Eagle in KY - I have no doubt (ok, little doubt) that SM is trying to act in his best interests. My son is definitely Eagle material; unless this kind of *&*& turns him off, he will definitely complete Eagle. I'm pretty sure that SM is trying to help develop his leadership by requiring him to be more assertive. In and of itself, that's fine, but refusing to advance him in rank is not the way to do it. As Bob White pointed out, SM has in fact added a requirement that is not in the BSA list of requirements.

 

Bob White - I'm with you 100%. SM DID hold the SM conference, but has refused to sign off on it. Hence my son DID "participate in a Scoutmaster conference" therefore completed the requirement. SM says that he's going to keep an eye on the boy and when he sees more assertiveness then he'll sign off. i.e., he is adding a requirement for rank advancement.

 

We want to avoid making a big stink by involving others (which is why I'm seeking advice here). At this point it looks like my husband is going to have a talk with SM about reconsidering, pointing out that assertiveness is not a requirement and that the boy did participate in the conference.

 

And, finally, Bob White - also good points to keep in mind! Scouting has been great for both my husband and son, and I hope it will continue to be a positive experience no matter how far they go.

 

Mom

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain 20]

Goodkidsmom,

 

Glad to hear your son is as active as he is. I guess I was projecting the image of the two scouts I've described onto your son based on your intial post. My appologies.

 

I'm curious about what the SM would consider as "more assertiveness" ? Not that I believe it's a requirement. As far as I'm concerned it sounds like your son has met the requirements to advance, except the BOR that he has tried to schedule.

 

Good luck.

 

SA

[acco40 95]

SM conference is not pass/fail. "Demonstrate scout spirit ..." and "Serve actively ..." requirements are pass/fail or maybe did or did not do.

 

Similar to a BOR, I would ask the SM for specifics.

"Be more assertive" is NOT a very good suggestion. What if your son turned around and told the SM to go jump in a lake ( )! That would show assertiveness in spades but not really fit the bill. Many of the higher rank requirements are judgement calls and SMs do interpret them differently (just peruse this forum!).

 

I'd ask your son what he would like to do. How you or your husband want to handle the matter should be a don't care. In fact, I would ask your son how HE would like to handle it. Not how he would like YOU or your husband to handle it. Use that approach and he would be fulfilling the SMs wish!

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)