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Bob White

Measuring "active in your troop or patrol" requirement

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"Would you pass a scout on a S.M. conference if he had lied to you about why he couldn't go on an outing?"

 

Of course I would! Why? Because meeting the requirement for the Scoutmasters Conference does include whether or not a scout tells the truth. That character trait would only affect the Scout Spirit requirement. For the Scoutmaster's conference the scout and I need to have a conversation to learn more about him, to set future goals, evaluate his contribution to the Patrol and Troop, and evaluate the patrol and troops performance.

 

But the Scout Spirit requires that he live according to the oath and law . So no, I would not approve his Scout Spirit requirement at that time. (Unless he was advancing to Tenderfoot, which has no scout spirit requirement.)

 

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Bob,

Whoa cowboy! If a Scout lies to his SM about why he couldn't go on an outing you would pass him on his SM Conference! What happened to living by the Scout Oath & Law? I'm not playing devils advocate here. I really must question why you would do this. Lying is not being trustworthy and not being trustworthy is not living by the Scout Law. I am appalled at your answer!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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I'm sorry to hear you're not playing on this one Ed.

"Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life" is a different requirement from "Participate in a Scoutmaster conference". You cannot refuse to sign one because he failed to satisfy the other.

 

Not being trustworthy has nothing to do with meeting with the scoutmaster. But it has everything to do with scout spirit.

 

You wouldn't refuse to sign his swimming requirement if he couldn't tie a clove hitch would you?

You need to look at each requirement individually.

 

It is an important difference that every scoutmaster needs to know.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Bob,

Nope. You can't compare a swimming requirement to honesty. I expect my Scouts to be honest. In fact, I have sent Scouts home from camping trips for lying to me.

 

If I wouldn't sign the Scout's Spirit, why on earth whoul I ever consider holding a SM conference until I was satisfied this Scout had mended his ways & was now living by the Oath & Law. Everything in Scouting is not as literal as you want to make it, Bob.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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Please answer honestly Ed,

 

If you discovered that a scout had lied to you, would sit down with him to let him know you know he lied? would you ask him why? Would you talk with him about how that behavior could damage his life. Would you ask him what it means to be trustworthy? Would you ask him if he felt his behavior reflected a trustworthy character? Would you ask him what kind of behavior you and others will be able to expect from him. would you try to get him back onto the scouting trail? Would you explain that you could not in good conscience approve his scout spirit until he regains your trust through his behavior for the next several weeks and then work with him to determine a time period.

 

If you do this with this scout then you have just held a SM conference, and you have the same obligation to sign the scoutmaster conference on his advancement as he has to act in a trustworthy manner.

 

So Ed would you do this with the scout?

 

Bob White

 

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Bob, you missed the point of my admittedly silly hypothetical. The Scout had "improved" from having been arrested to only two detentions at school. I can't believe you really believe not having been arrested lately is measurable evidence of having lived by the Scout Oath and Law.

 

But let's forget the hypotheticals. My point is this: if it is appropriate to judge a Scout's attendance relative to his other activities and his self-defined goals, why isn't it appropriate to judge Scout spirit and leadership by the same criteria?

 

A few weeks ago in another thread regarding young Eagles, the conversation was hot and heavy that 12 & 13 year olds don't have the maturity and leadership skills to meet the standards of an Eagle Scout (I'm heavily paraphrasing the thread). Specifically, someone said they would have difficulty signing off on the Personal Finance budgeting requirements for a 12-year-old who only had a few dollars allowance coming in and out.

 

My point then was that we should judge a boy on his own merits, not some abstract standard which is not in the requirements. Certainly a 12-year-old doesn't have the leadership, maturity, or emotional faculties of a 17-year-old. But like "active in your troop or patrol," living in Scout Oath and Promise and serving your troop are requirements which are relative to the Scout's ability.

 

(By the way Bob, I'm trying to agree with you.)

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Bob,

Yes I would let the Scout know he lied to me. Read my last post. Will I ask why? Yes. Do I care why he lied? No. Would I ask him all the other question you listed? Maybe.

 

There are two steadfast rules in my Troop.

 

No profanity. No lying. Simple.

 

The adults in my Troop don't and won't tolerate a Scout or other adult that lies. And until that Scout can prove he has mended his ways, he will not advance. And the adult will be kept on a very short leash.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

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Twocubdad,

I don't think you read my post.

I said that his behavior showed he was not ready to be approved on his scout spirit.

 

I do have to disagree with a gross generalization you made.

"Certainly a 12-year-old doesn't have the leadership, maturity, or emotional faculties of a 17-year-old."

 

Which 12-year old? Which 17-year old? This is precisely why we have the Scoutmaster conference. A good Boy Scout leader evalutes each scout on their individual abilities and characteristics not simply by their age.

 

Bob White

 

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ED!

I didn't say sign off on his scout spirit. But if you have a Scoutmaster conference with him have the character to sign the book saying you had it. Would it do any harm to show more integrity than the scout did? Aren't you supposed to be the role-model?

 

If you did a SM conference why wouldn't you sign it? The SM conference is not something you pass or fail. You either have done one or you haven't.

 

 

 

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Bob,

I always do the SM conference's after all the other ranks requirements are complete & before the BOR. I know there is no order for the rank requirements except the BOR is last. That is just the way I have chosen to do it. Since Scout Spirit is prior to that and since there is no way I am signing that if a Scout lied to me then there is no way this Scout is having a SM conference. Follow?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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A casual observation if I may, you guys are beginning to sound like the boys SM conference is more like a meeting with his Rabbi, Priest, or Minister.

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Fotoscout

More like a mentor or career coach. Because that is really our role as scout leaders. Actually a lot of what makes a good someone a good priest, minister or rabbi,is also what makes for a good scoutmaster.

We are all expected to be good sheperds to our flock.

We have each have a specific list of values we are trying to instill in others.

We all have a belief in duty to God.

We believe that people can change for the better

We forgive those who are contrite.

We all work out of good books.

We have 60 to 90 minutes a week to share the message.

We all have summer camps.

We feel personal growth comes from personal conversations with the leader.

We all have committees to deal with.

And like clergy there are a few who joined for the wrong reasons and stay for the wrong reasons.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Twocub,

 

It was me who made the statement about Personal Management MB. I hope I was clear then and that you just misunderstood, but if it was poor composition that created a misunderstanding, let me try again.

 

As a MB Counselor, I would not begin to work on that MB with a boy who did not have some significant source of income, as I believe the intent of the lesson the BSA intends a Scout to get from the requirement is not met by a Scout budgeting $2.00 per week. I would not begin to work on the badge with a Scout if he intended to plan a budget with such a small amount. Or, I would only start with him if he understood in advance that I would not sign that requirement under those circumstances. As an advancement chair though, were a boy come to me looking to do this MB with me, and I said I would not do it, after I explained why, I would (and have) offered him a list of other MB Counselors he could contact. No one in our Troop has ever done that, and the only boy outside the Troop that did was within a month of his 18th BD, which didn't allow him time to complete the requirement properly anyway.

 

And just as a footnote, I have had one 13 year old complete this MB with me. He caddied an entire summer and most of the fall. At the beginning of the process, I asked him what he intended to do with his money. He couldn't wait to buy candy and video games. By planning his income and expenditures, and setting up goals and a pay yourself first program, he has prvided himself with a solid finacial foundation (both intellectually and $$$$). I am POSITIVE that what he reconginzes as a tremendous value to him by doing this MB would not be so easy for him to see if he was trying to budget $2.00 / week.

 

Ed,

 

You run things in your Troop much as we do in ours. Our SM always provides an oppurtunity for a SM Conference after all of the "hard" requirements are finished. I don't think anyone has ever told our Scouts it has to be like this, but the order they are in the book makes it easy for a Scout to assume it, and we do nothing to discourage it.

 

But the danger that exists in doing things in this order is what I think you are talking about here. It would be very easy, I think, to be a SM and believe that because the conference is happening at the end of the advancement process, that the SM is a gatekeeper, protecting from the possiblity of sending a non-deserving Scout in front of a BOR. And for this reason, SM's often seem to want to retest, and pass / fail boys at the conference. This is not how it is designed to work, I don't think. Only the tester of an individual requirement, and the BOR, can pass or fail a boy. If it is the SM that is testing for a requirement, then he has the authority to pass or fail. But once at a SM conference, that right no longer exists, if all of the other requirements are signed off.

 

Here's a question. What if the SPL or a ASM signed off Scout Spirit? What would you do at the SM conference? And specifically, what would you do if, during the SM conference, the boy lied to you about why he wasn't at an event?

 

I'm afraid my tone suggests that I am being sarcastic, but I'm not. If I were a SM, I'd really have a tough time with that. My understanding is that once passed, the Scout has sucessfully complete that requirement, so as a SM, I couldn't take it away. I also understand that if the conference happens, it is not pass / fail, it is done or not done. I would really struggle with this one. Luckily, I'm a lowly Advancement Chair, so I don't have to ever be in that situation. But what would you do?

 

I suspect that this thread could live on for quite a while longer.

 

Mark

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Mark,

Good question. I haven't given my SPL or ASPL the OK to sign off requirements. But say I did & I found out at the SM conference the Scout lied about about why he wasn't at event. I would stop the conference, talk to the SPL or ASPL to see if they knew the Scout lied before they signed off. If they did or didn't is of no matter to the Scout who lied. (It will matter to the SPL or ASPL who signed.) I would then tell the Scout this requirement was signed under false pretenses and explain to him how lying is not living with the Scout Oath & Law. I would also tell him he will not advance beyond his current rank until the adult leadership & the SPL & ASPL feel he has "mended" his ways.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4"10

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This brings another question to mind..does your troop allow your scouts to signoff requirements for other scouts in their book? In mine as longas your 1st Class and above you can sign off other scouts books

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