Patrol Mix

[jeff-o 10]

I read another post about sizes of patrols, but I can't find it now. Let me explain our troop's background before I ask the question:

 

We have a new troop, almost a year old. As the SM, I do have a long-term view, hoping to expand, learning as we go, and not really get everything fully working for a number of years. At the start, we had just 5 scouts who came over from Cubs together. Since that time, we've added 4 more scouts. 1 is a year or two older than the rest, the others are all new. End result, we have about 9 scouts, almost all the same age. We have no older scouts.

 

Right now, we have four that regularly go on camp outs. The others show up on occasion, but not regularly, for different reasons, usually schedule conflicts. Right now, they are all in one patrol and they have elected the older scout for their patrol leader. They haven't come together as a patrol, however. For example, they've been working on their patrol flag for 8 months and just can't seem to finish it.

 

I read in another thread, that with a group this size, we should consider making two patrols and have a SPL. My first response is that I should ask the scouts. But again, they're brand-new, so they don't have any idea, and most of the times I ask them, they ask me how things are usually done. But my next concern is that if we split them into two patrols then on camp outs we will end up with two patrols of two more often than not. The counter-argument is that the peer pressure might get more of them to show up more often.

 

We don't have access to any sort of troop guide. In fact, right now we're struggling with just two adult leaders. We're trying hard to recruit more adult leaders, but that's not going places with the current group. For the most part, we let the scouts determine the direction of the troop, but they have zero for older youth examples, so we try and set the example as the adults -- but that only works so much.

 

So what say you, members of this forum? Should we stay with the extra-large patrol for now, knowing that we're only getting 4-5 on a camp out (with an estimated 1-2 incoming in February from the Cubs; but 7-8 the next year); or should we go ahead and split into two patrols, not knowing exactly what we'd be getting into on campouts? Or perhaps something else? And does anyone really think we would need a 13-year old SPL if we do split? Thanks for your opinions!

[Twocubdad 665]

I would definitely stick with the one patrol. With only four regular guys, why would you split?

 

The traditional number for a patrol is 8, the thinking being that seven is the right number of a Patrol Leader to manage. But as you have learned, with attendance issues, you rarely have that many on a campout. I think more current thinking is to bump patrol membership to 10. Even when everyone shows up, that's not an unmanagable number. If a patrol consistently has 6 or 8 guys camping, things just go better -- more fun, more hands to help with the chores.

 

We're in the process of reorganizing our patrols after about two and a half years with the current alignment. With 40 boys, the PLC made the call to go with four, 10-man patrols basically for these reasons. The Scouts correctly understand the math and figure slightly larger patrols are going to make sure they are more likely to have critical mass on campouts.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, jeff-o, you're thinkin' right about this. Buildin' a new troop is a long-term project. It's got ups and downs. Yeh just keep on keepin' on through the downs, and the ups will come.

 

I think yeh always get adult leaders in the same proportion to boys, eh? Yeh always have barely enough. So as yeh grow, you'll find others to join on the adult side... always just barely enough!

 

Twocubdad is right. You are a one-patrol troop right now, and that's just fine. Once yeh get a few more active boys, yeh can begin to think about splittin' into two, but only when you're sure that both patrols will remain viable on all campouts. And I wouldn't go with an SPL at that point. How hard is it for two PLs to coordinate with each other? Save da SPL role until yeh get to at least 3 patrols, maybe 4.

 

Beavah

[WAKWIB 107]

Jeff-O mentions some discouragement about a patrol-spirit issues ie. the 8 month process for the flag. Those types of things will pick up when the time comes to branch out into two or more patrols. Then a sense of competition should drive those types of things to move faster.

The troop I serve was in your shoes when I first joined, but the Cub Pack eventually came through and we went from essentially from one patrol to four in about 2 years.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

We are an old troop but our dynamic is not too far from yours. We currently have 2 patrols of 5 active each. This, to me is the minimum for a patrol. Until you have enough active to divide the one patrol into 2 groups of 5 regularly active members, I would not seek out 2 patrols.

 

When you do reach that, I might consider not having an SPL, mainly because of the inexperience of the scouts. Having 2 patrols is hardly having one scout step away from patrols to manage 2 PLs. Our dynamic is different with a couple of 14/15 year olds, but if I were in your boat, I would probably keep the 2 young patrols with out an SPL until there is additional growth.

 

My 2.

 

[Eagledad 2780]

 

Well it sounds like you are doing pretty well to me. What I like to advice on groups such as yours is try to develop the program now that you see in five years. Its not going to be the same, but you want to change a little as possible as the group gains experience and numbers.

 

So Im thinking you keep everyone in one group because nine scouts isnt really that big of a patrol. However, I would have a SPL so that you can work through him and he can work with the patrol leader. In reality its not going to make much difference, but it is how you want your program to work five years from now when you have 50 scouts.

 

It is also important to remember that boys 13 and under dont really enjoy leadership that much. So, make sure you give them enough responsibility that they grow from the experience, but not so much that they dont look forward to coming to the meetings and activities. Its really hard at the age, but the important thing here is Step back more and more as the scouts gain more and more experience. Many (most) adults develop habits in they way the work with scouts and dont change even though the boys are growing and changing. But if you keep stepping back with age of scouts as they gain experience, I promise that by the age 13, they will be more independent than most boy run troops, and they wont feel as burned out.

 

You have to really watch and judge they attitude, but try to push the boys a little farther than they think they can go so they work in that learning zone, but not so far as to not want to come back. I like to say that your program should so that boys think as they are going home I like myself when Im in the troop. Its important to remember to strive so that everything is fun, but what brings boys back when the program gets boring is the satisfaction of feeling good about their accomplishments. Scouts get that by achieving goals.

 

I think the questions you are asking are very important and we all have asked them, but remember to try and keep everything in the context of your big goal. That is a personal thing for you, but my big picture goal when I was Scoutmaster was developing character based from the decisions the made in their activities. Sounds simple, but I had to practice a lot to answer my questions in that perspective. Will the scouts have as much fun in two smaller patrols and more opportunities to practice leadership and living the scout law? Or will they have more fun and grow better in the one big group? That is really something you have to figure out because you have your own style. That doesnt mean a little wisdom from those of us who have been there and done that isnt worth its weight. We have a lot of experience and learned a lot form how we did it wrong and how we did it right (mine was more wrong than right). I'm just suggesting how to think of these things in terms of your big picture.

 

Like I said before, I think your doing OK so far. If the scouts are getting a little bored, go out and do something fun, You didnt hear it from me, but take them out for a few games of Lazer Tag or something. And if there is some part of the meeting or activities they arent enjoying, change that too. I look forward to reading your post of how your troop grows. Im away from it now, so its always a pleasure for to watch good scoutmasters in action.

 

I love this scoutmaster stuff.

 

Barry

 

[jeff-o 10]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

 

As a note, the scouts are not at all bored. In fact, the one thing I love hearing, and I hear it nearly every week, is, "What? Its time to go already? But we just got started!"

 

Of course, I will be the first to admit, the troop meetings are being planned by me. Its not so much that the scouts can't do it, they don't know what to do because they've never seen it before. I'm working on slowly moving towards them running a lot more. For example, the PL now has the troop meeting openings and is responsible for that every meeting. The game is determined by different scouts, based on volunteers, and I throw in a new game every so often, just so they get more ideas. This year the scouts wanted to go on a climbing outing, so one scout volunteered to set that up. Yeah, at 11? Well, its his job and if it doesn't get done, we'll do something else that weekend (and yes, I'm assisting him, but I'm not DOING it for him, he volunteered!).

 

Recently, we've started having the patrol meeting section be for camp out planning and advancement. Sure, they need lots of help and guidance with that, but we let them try and sort it out themselves, at least to start. Most are not afraid to try something, anything, and are absolutely not afraid to fail. The camp out with hamburgers on the menu with no frying pan or spatula will attest to that!

 

I do appreciate the comments on when to split into patrols. My current plan, of course subject to change, especially if scouts want to change it:

 

Keep this one patrol until next fall (2010). We only anticipate 1-2 more scouts coming in February from the Cub Pack. That will make the official troop roster up to 10 or 11. Troop meetings will have likely that 10-11, but I don't see a big increase in camp out attendance. I think if we start seeing 8+ regulars on the camp outs, I might suggest a split at that point.

 

For summer camp, we'll just stick together as the one patrol. I think we'll get no more than 8 to that. Then in the fall, hopefully we'll get a couple more from round-ups, and then have 12 or 13. We have elections scheduled for that time, and then I can see a split. After that, in February 2011, there is an entire group of Cubs that are lined up to join us. If at least 5 of them make it, at that point we might have enough for three patrols, and at that point the most senior scouts will be about twelve and a half and I think up to Star Rank (wow, at 12? yes, at least 3 of them are near first class right now), and THEN I would expect to add a SPL. At that point, the one older scout will be 14 or 15, but I'm not sure he will be the highest ranking at that point...we'll see!

 

Again, thanks for the ideas and comments, its good to hear from others and how things work in this great world of scouting.

[Eagledad 2780]

Yes, you are doing fine.

 

I would like to say that after a scout masters scout skills (first class), rank should not be a measurement of leadership qualifications. Maturity and experience are a lot better measurements of leaders and I have had some very good leaders who were not motivated by rank. You want to develop a program of multiple opportunities, so stear away from opportunity blocks. Also you will find that 14 and 15 year old men look at leadership a lot differently than 12 and 13 years olds. The changes of body chemistry dramatically dictate the motivation toward dreams and goals.

 

Barry

[Mafaking 10]

 

Sounds like a realy nice troop.

 

I concur on the one patrol. However you should eat seperetly with the other adults. Seperate meal plan and all.

 

You are doing all the things a large troop would do, outings, summer camp leadership.

[walk in the woods 888]

Yeah, been there and still doing it. Small troops are great fun. I agree with everybody, 1 patrol is fine. I'd skip the SPL and go with PL, APL, QM. If you've got somebody interested in other spots (scribe, historian, webmaster, etc.) that's fine too, just make sure they have work to do.

 

Secondarily, get your committee organized, even if you have to train them too. I suppose it's a double-edged sword sometimes but having that help is worthwhile.

[jeff-o 10]

Thanks for the additional comments. Yes, we need our committee more trained. Right now we have one person plus a couple other half of a persons -- not much of a committee yet.

 

As for the food, indeed, the adults are eating completely separately. We bring our own food and utensils, and so far that area has been one where the scouts have learned the most. We eat different things all the time to show them examples of what can be done, and we show them how we ensure that we're not missing things when we get to the camp site. They don't quite get it, but they're getting closer!

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

Purely for the entertainment value of the gang.

 

We have laid the groundwork to divide into 3 very small patrols in prep for Webelos crossover and committed new scouts, which will more than double each patrol.

 

Our upcoming backpack trip is divided by age (skill level), not patrol, so we have an unusual ad hoc mix. But the new groups have met and are discussing patrol names, and are choosing yells at the same time. Some of what I overheard are the Geckos (yell: "Fifteen minutes can save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance") and the Sharks (yell: "I am a nice shark. Not a mindless eating machine. If I want to change this image, I must first change myself. Fish are friends. Not food."). There was a lot of support for the Killer Whales, but they couldn't come up with a good yell. They have not settled yet, and have until our next PLC to do so. After this campout, they'll have another week. I can't wait to hear what they come up with....

[GKlose 24]

I love those patrol yells!

 

I knew that some of our patrols would resist actually choosing names (indecision, stonewalling, whatever -- it doesn't really matter). I was just messing with them, and I told a couple of patrol leaders that they had two weeks to choose a patrol meeting, and if they didn't, they would be known as the My Little Pony patrol and the Hello Kitty patrol. :-)

 

The Hello Kitty patrol decided that Platycats would be a good patrol name, and the My Little Pony patrol hasn't come up with a real name yet. In fact, we haven't really seen the PL in awhile.

 

(reality note: I'm not really going to choose a name for them! But it does irk me that the system has non-functioning patrols such that even the simplest step, like choosing a patrol name, can't get done.)

 

Guy