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Other Patrol Positions

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Gee, Bob, I've been to two county fairs and a pig . . . okay, I won't finish that but I have been to Scoutmaster School, University of Scouting and more Roundtables than I can count and I've never heard of the idea that EVERYBODY NEEDS a position of responsibility. What do you do if a Scout doesn't WANT a position of responsibility? Force him to take one? What if a Scout isn't qualified to do anything except light himself on fire? Do you force him into a position?

 

 

 

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Who said "needs a position of responsibility"? Who said "force"? Who comes into a troop qualified?

 

I am glad you have attended training. I have no control over what was said or what you heard. I only know how the program works.

 

Bob White

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Well Bob, since you like to read into what others write, I'll say that you said they "need" a position because that is the sum of your statements.

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How to put this nicely, ....FOG, what you wrote was a conscious decision to abstain from the truth.

 

The scouting program is designed and intended to allow every scout to have a share of the leadership responsibility within the patrol or troop. Such responsibilities improves skills, develops teamwork, improves attendance, teaches citizenship, raises self-esteem, and is in keeping with the mission of scouting.

 

Why would you only allow some scouts those benefits and not all?

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Yet another example of how Bob White doesn't abide by the Scout Law. Maybe I'll fuss and whine and run to your special friend to complain that you've said mean things to me and aren't playing nice.

 

Please cite the document (page and paragraph with quote) that supports your position.

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I'll tell you what I told Ed, if you cannot ask nicely than you don't get an answer. I am not obligated to cooperate with anyone who lies about me and insults me. You should know what the manuals are, take some time out to learn the program. If self-study does not suit you consider attending some training.

 

By the way I'm not sure who you mean by my "special friend", but if you feel you have grounds to complain about my behaviour then take it to whomever you wish with this forum and plead your case. Just be sure to tell the truth when you do.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Bob,

Sharing in leadership & responsibility doesn't mean "have a position of responsibility". It means be an active member of a Patrol. I don't think there is anything in any BSA manual that states every Scout in a Troop should have a position of responsibility. Once again, this is your interpretation.

 

And I don't want to be spoon fed anything! You just seem to know the manuals inside & out so you should be able to cite chapter & verse without any trouble when asked. By not doing so only tells me it isn't in there.

 

Sorry please!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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I think Bob's right in spirit, if not strictly in letter. The Patrol Leader's Handbook includes an entire chapter on other leadership positions in the patrol. While it doesn't require a PL to appoint them, or require that every Scout in the patrol have a POR with a patch and advancement requirement credit, that's obviously what BSA's getting at, and the reasons why are obvious.

 

I disagree with CubsRgr8 that the appointed patrol positions have nothing to do with advancement. Granted, a POR is not required for the first three ranks, and except for PL, the patrol positions don't count toward advancement. But, I believe that if a Scout, however junior, shares in the leadership, decision-making, and operation of his patrol (and by extension, his troop) as a Grubmaster, patrol Scribe, etc., it lays a foundation of responsibility and familiarity with "how the Troop operates" that will serve him well when he is completing Star requirements.

 

So, there's no immediate, direct relationship between patrol positions and advancement, but that's no reason to not use them. After all, most of what's important about Scouting doesn't pay off immediately. We often don't know if this worked for a particular boy unless we can see him when he's 25. So why not use patrol positions, with the crossed-fingers expectation that a patrol Scribe today will make a better Troop Scribe tomorrow?

 

On another point, I wouldn't use appointed patrol positions for advancement credit under the "...leadership project assigned by your SM..." clause. To me (and I've been wrong before), that's an end run around BSA requirements. A Troop may have more than one Instructor, even more than one ASPL. I would appoint additional Instructors who specialize in certain areas of Scoutcraft before I'd count patrol positions that BSA didn't intend to count for advancement.

 

KS

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"By the way I'm not sure who you mean by my "special friend","

 

Ah, the Bob White selective memory. The last time that I refered to your special friend, you stomped off in a huff and swore to never return. We all saw how long that lasted.

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Well FOG it appears to be "put up or shut up' time. A search of the the last year of your posts using this sights search tool does not turn up any other use of the term "special friend" in any of your posts other than the last two days. Nor have I ever said I was leaving and never returning.

 

So where are these two posts you refer to?

 

The lies you spread need to stop, this is not an appropriate venue to display that type of character trait.

 

Bob White

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I think much of the initial mental resistance to the notion of all members of a troop having a position of responsibility is our mistaking the terms "responsibility" and "leadership." Now, this doesn't mean that every new scout should have a PoR, or that it is required or even always beneficial. It just means that there is nothing disordered or top-heavy about a hypthetical troop of 50 having fifty positions of responsibility. It would, of course, be rather odd if all 50 members were in positions of leadership. Again, I don't think this is a conscious process, but when we first hear "position of responsibility" our brains load the "position of leadership" schema, part of which is "small percentage of group." I realize that I'm probably talking out of the back side of my scout pants at this point, but maybe this is helpful..

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Put up or shut up?

 

Okay, http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=32869

 

It wasn't just me who thought you were going away forever, it was many others.

 

As for "special friends," I said that you had a "special relationship" so it follows that the other person would be your "special friend."

 

But you knew all of this already.

 

BTW, again you show that, to you, the Scout Law is nothing but words.

 

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So you did not say special friend before as you had stated, and I did not say I would be gone forever as you had stated. So you did lie about both. You have no right to judge anyone's fullfillment of the Oath or Law after lying about your identity, when you re-joined.

 

I did say that I would quit feeding you though and I have fallen back into that trap. So FOG, Yaworski, Zorn, whatever name you want to use this time I leave you to your angry world of a program you do not like, a handbook you do not like, in a uniform you do not like, working with parents you do not like. You offer your version of the program and I will post my understanding of it. The readers can decide for themselves what they feel is in keeping with the Scouting program.

 

Ed, don't even bother tossing in your two cents on this.

 

Bob White

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Okay now that my spleen is thorougky vented lets get back to talk about scouting. I have listed some of the advantages of every scout holding a specific responsibility within the troop or patrol. To recap, they include;improves skills, develops teamwork, improves attendance, teaches citizenship, raises self-esteem, and is in keeping with the mission of scouting.

 

Mark has presented a very effective way to administer this in a new scout patrol.

 

My questions are "what negatives are there to using this element of the patrol method in a troop of any size?" and "do you feel the negatives outweigh the advantages and how?"

 

Bob White

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Must stop self

Must stop

Cannot fight it anymore!

 

Because that is not the way I run MY Scout troop!

 

I have better thing to do than to teach a 11 year old boy leadership skills! They are too young!

 

I will give them a leadership position when I deem them good and ready, and not a minute before!

 

The old scouts book where better!

The uniform sucks!

BSA policy are horrid!

 

Because Bob White suggested it and I will never agree with him!

 

Sorry, I will go away now. :(

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