New Troop

[bigbovine 10]

I have just been approached with starting a new Troop. It was disscussed a few years ago in a Pack Committee Meeting, but never went anywhere because nobody really had any Troop experience or wanted the responsibility (I was fresh into the Scouting scene, only been there maybe 2 weeks). Given what I have learned in the last few years, if had the knowledge I have now I would have volunteered to start a Troop. A few of those still in the Pack know that the Troop that my 3 boys are in now wants to appoint me as new SM (which the current SM would like to happen in the next month or two).

 

1: My boys have mixed Feelings.

a:They like the idea of being closer to home, being part of building a new Troop, and doing some things different(More boy lead).

b:They have made friends, are comfortable with what they know (not many people like change, for good or bad).

 

2: I have mixed Feelings

a:Being part of building a new program is exciting and challenging. I would like to see some things done differently on the adult side than what is currently done in the Troop (I realize that can be done if and when I become SM in the current Troop, I do not think there would be grief if I changed things up a little). It would be closer to home and more in our community (but only 10 minutes difference, no big deal). A big plus, I have a fourth joining Pack next year, and both Pack and Troop would be in same building on same night. This is a big deal with my wife, because current situation is looking at 3-4 nights a week between roundtable, Pack and Troop meetings, Pack and Troop Committee meetings, and possible OA if any of my boys are selected (whether or not I am involved in OA, we would still have to get them to and from). In the new situation, I am looking at 2 nights a week tops, and occasionally 3.

b:I have developed relationships with those in the Committe and the Troop that we are currently in. The SM has been there for over 10 years and wants a break, but will stay on as CC. I almost feel like I would be betraying him if I did this, yet I see this as the best move for my family. They have not actively recruited for the last 5 years, and when the SM saw how active I wanted to be, immediately saw me as replacement. I have resisted, but he recently said he was retiring and it was me or nothing. I would hate to see the current Troop fold, my boys even said the same, but they have active adult leadership in the committee and I think they would be able to see things through.

 

Am I wrong in my thinking? When does Family trump Loyalty to the Troop? I have so many questions on this that I am not sure where to start. There will be plenty of support in the new Troop and at least three groups that are willing to Charter.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

>

 

 

The current Scout leadership more or less made a decision to fold the troop when they abandoned a recruiting program. The responsibility lies with them.

 

 

What are the possibility of moving the existing troop to a new chartered partner, combining that with your pack's CO?

 

It's a huge effort to begin a new Troop. It's very likely worth the extra drive to the existing troop to maintain that resource and leadership base.

 

Having a quality Troop Committee Chair is a big advantage by itself.

 

I would suppose that the odds of both the new and old troop failing within a few years are fairly good.

 

I'd look very carefully at how you can keep the resources of the old troop available --- either by a moving the program or by staying with the existing troop.

 

But if you want to start a new troop, you are entitled to do so.

 

I took over a Cub Scout pack four years ago that was down to a single boy. I've put huge amounts of time into it and we have a quality program but it is still struggling.

 

 

[bigbovine 10]

As I mentioned previously, having both meeting in same place at same time is big bonus. I am going to run into a big problem on time constraints when my youngest joins the Pack. The main reason I have resisted becoming replacement SM at current troop, hoping someone else could be found. I have actually thought about and will mention to the current troop about keeping all the same but moving the meeting place to that of the Pack. The complacency of recruiting, I have taken care of myself. It isn't that they don't want it, they just don't do it.

I don't have a problem with the CO representation and the committee, my main issue is once again the time constraints.

Her is run down on time:

 

Current situation when youngest joins Pack,

Troop and Pack meet same night 10 minutes appart. I can get Den to meet on other nights, but that has messed up other Dens in the past when Pack meeting comes around. But given that is the only way to do it, here is what I am looking at

 

OA meetings 2 times month, Monday nights.

Den meetings 3 times month, not sure which night depending on what others can do.

Pack meetings 1 night a month on Tuesday night.

Troop meetings 4 nights a month.

Pack Committee meeting, 1 night a month.

Troop committee meeting 1 night a month.

That doesn't include Troop campouts and coordinating them around Pack outings.

 

2nd option:

OA 2 nights month

Roundtable 1 night a month

Pack, Den, Troop meetings 4 nights month same night same place.

Pack/Troop committee meeting 1 night month (possibly on same night place as Den/ Troop meetings)

12 nights to 7 or 8 nights depending on Committee meetings.

 

Does anybody see a problem with the new setup if that is the way I go. Once again, I haven't decided yet, just looking at it from all sides. I figured someone else seeing this from the outside would be able to shed some different light on the subject. I would hate to start something only to cause two failures. But keep in mind, I will be there for the next 10 to 12 years minimum.

 

[Basementdweller 608]

While loyalty is important...

 

Family first.....Let your son's tell you what they want. If they want to stay with the current troop then you have the answer.

 

 

I would not let anyone pressure me into anything.

 

Cross posted with you.....

 

Your looking for a case of burn out.....The thing about jobs, when you are doing more than one you do neither very well. Trust me....

(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[bigbovine 10]

Burn out is big concern. That is one reason why I think the new Troop might be a good idea if other plans cannot be worked out. If both are in same place I will not have to drive all over for meetings. I have already decided that roundtables will be set aside if I can find someone else to go. That is one night a month out of the way. OA nights are a problem. Right now the one who is going to be my ASM either way (He wont be SM) is willing to transport but he works on monday nights. Nobody else to really do that because the current Troop looks down on OA (It's a Cult to them, but they told me I could do what I wanted for OA as long as it doesn't involve them or get in way of their shooting team). As far as campouts and stuff, I love that, no concern on burnout there. Committee meetings are a must for me to attend, no skimp there either way.

I also see it as a positive for the Troop and Pack to meet at same place, gives the little ones something to look forward to. I also do not plan on being Den leader while SM, just want to be able to go to Pack meetings and such without having a problem. Plus as a Tiger I will have to be there anyway. Let me add, outside of Church meetings and occasional Respite (We do short term Foster for infant placements) I don't do much else, Scouts is ou main activity.

[kari_cardi 10]

I definitely see your point about reducing stress on your family by having everyone attend meetings in the same building on the same night. We have a similar situation with one in the pack, two in the troop, one in a crew (soon to be two) and my dh as SM and I can tell you that since he took the SM role he has had no time during troop meetings to do anything with the pack. He certainly could not be an adult partner with a Tiger. It is one of our regrets in having him assume the SM role, in that my Cub Scout isn't spending the time with his dad that his brothers had. OTOH, if we weren't all in the same building for den, pack and troop meetings, I don't think we could participate in scouting at the level that we do, which is a committment similar to your family.

 

As far as starting a new troop, I would assume that you have a good relationship with the pack that would share your CO and that this would be your primary recruiting source? Are there parents ready and willing to form a troop committee and be ASMs? If you have to do it all, I don't see an advantage of doing your own thing at this time. Maybe in the future. If you do have the volunteers and scouts to make an insta-troop, then maybe.

 

You have a lot to consider, best of luck as you make your choices.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Frankly, trying to analyze the schedules you post is not worth my time.

 

 

In general though, I'd change the night of a troop meeting and/or find others to attend various meetings.

 

You need to decide what you can reasonably do, and if that's not everything you'd like to do, tough.

 

 

You might notice that BSA lists a lengthy and extensive lists of responsibilities for pretty much every Scouting position. No one does them all. I look at such lists and decide on two or three or so that I'm either good at doing or that I would like to do. The rest don't get done or I find someone else to do them.

 

You might consider trying something like that.

[eolesen 10]

BB, me thinks you're heading for either a case of burnout, a divorce, or both...

 

Your loyalty should be to your family and boys. Period.

 

Pick one registered leadership position plus OA.

 

Enthusiasm is one thing, but life interrupts regardless of your best intentions, and having you wear multiple hats does a disservice to you, your boys, and the troop.

 

At best, you'll be losing out on your time with your sons. You essentially stop being a parent when you're trying to run everything.....

 

At worst, the unit is going to fold because you've let yourself become a single point of failure...(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

From what you're sayin', bigbovine, your principal reason for startin' a new troop is personal family stuff. To be closer to home, to co-locate with the pack.

 

Those reasons aren't good enough. There have to be real reasons in the local area that makes startin' a new troop there the best choice for all of the boys in the area, especially the current scouts. I'm not seein' that in what yeh post.

 

In order to be successful startin' a new troop, a whole mess of things have to be in place. Da core of a real troop committee. A couple of ASMs. Solid plans for initial gear / funding. A supportive CO. An experienced and talented person as SM, clear recruitment/feeder lines that don't cannibalize another troop.

 

From what you're describin', your preparation isn't good enough.

 

I know that's not what yeh perhaps want to hear, but from where I'm sittin' as a fellow who has been involved in startin' a bunch of troops and who has watched a bunch of troops struggle and fail, goin' with a new unit is about da worst choice available to yeh, and probably the worst choice for scouting in your area.

 

Go with the SM position, where there are resources and support in place. Build that troop up, do more with youth leadership, make it a strong program. At the point when that troop has too many kids, then think about whether it's time to split and create a second strong troop. By then, you'll have the experience as a SM to do that, and hopefully enough committee folks to make it work.

 

Now, givin' a young fellow like yourself advice from afar is a risky and probably foolish business, but take this as a kindness from a fellow who has been there.

 

Your wife firin' shots across the bow is somethin' that yeh take as seriously as the Coast Guard firin' a 50-caliber across your bow when you're in a 26 foot sloop. Yeh heave to, eh?

 

If yeh have at least 3 boys in da troop and are takin' on the SM job, it's time to give up all of your work with the pack. Cold turkey, no choice. Cub Scouting is now entirely in your past. Let your wife do the pack committee if yeh still have boys there. If not, part as friends.

 

You are not to be involved in OA. Be supportive of your boys, but give 'em some space. They are members of Scouting's Society of Honored Campers. They can arrange their own transportation or carpools without you holdin' their hand. Take that time when they are away to do somethin' special and wonderful with your wife. Marriage requires a lifetime of courtship.

 

For that reason, two nights per week is your limit. Bein' a good Scoutmaster, or a good dad, means quality, not necessarily quantity. Leave 'em room for friends and other adults to Associate with on nights that you have off, and you'll like the results a lot more in the long run.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Eagledad 2792]

>>Now, givin' a young fellow like yourself advice from afar is a risky and probably foolish business, but take this as a kindness from a fellow who has been there.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello Bovine,

 

 

So what kind of outdoor skills and experience do you have?

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I agree completely with Beavah and Eagledad, and that's not something I get to write very often!

[bigbovine 10]

Scouts 3 years, outdoor a lifetime in some areas, others not so much.

In scouting outdoor skills, probably 50/50.

Will have at least 2 ASM to join me. One says he is going to do the Troop no matter what, but will not be the SM.

Starting the new Troop is not my decision, it is happening with or without me. Whether I lend what knowledge and experience I have to the group is the question. If I do not take SM in this, they will probably try to find someone willing to volunteer for it. If I do not take SM I will stay where I am.

Either way, the old Troop is going to have to start getting active in recruit. When I came in, it was kind of automatic the others followed me. Like I said, I am only 3 years in and have more "Training" than everyone I am associated with in both groups together. Doesn't make me better, just more dangerous. Nobody seems to care for training in either group. However there are some new guys in the pack that have the same drive as myself, and I plan on tapping into that. That is one reason they followed me, they saw someone wanting to make a difference and do things the way it ought to be done. I am not perfect, but I do want the boys to get the most out of Scouting.

My wife and I are doing great. We understand our limits and refuse to let anything to get in the way of our marriage. We have not done things that the boys would have liked such as ball, and I love ball. We just decided we were not going to run all over creation to make that happen (Because of their ages so close, but yet just far enough apart). That is why I trust her when she says she thinks this other route would be best for our family. The reason we joined scouts originally, was because of the "convenience" of the whole ordeal. The last year we were on the edge of our limits that we had set. We made it work for a year to see what would happen. We could do it again, but only for a short timespan again. That is why I have givin serious thought to the move.

 

By the way, I will not take leadership in the pack, just meet with the committee for guidance. I want to be able to be there with my youngest as a parent not a Den Leader.

 

This sums it up

 

I am not taking my ball and running home, I am not dissappointed in the current Committee or SM, but looking at doing something I would have done 3 years ago if I had my current experience and knowledge. If the boys hadn't joined the current Troop and were just leaving WEBELOS, I would be all over this. The convenience of both groups meeting in same building is a really huge bonus.

 

 

[bigbovine 10]

To recap on Beavah, great stuff, but all has been considered. I asked for advice, good or bad. I wanted an outside view on something that I am struggling with at this moment, and it is a huge struggle.

 

CO is no problem, have 2 that are wanting this, and one that they haven't asked but know would take on the responsibility.

Equipment is not the problem.

 

The council has wanted this for years because of the size of the area and the central location. They feel they may retain more boys if they didn't have to drive to the next town for a Troop.

 

I understand my short comings of experience, but I am going to be a SM either way, so that one is not even part of the equation.

 

This pack is big in our area, averaging 35 to 45 kids a year. Most drop out after WEB and do not continue. The current Troop says they are supposed to have them as a feeder, but haven't recieved any boys from it in 10 years (Since the current SM boys moved up to be exact). At least not until my boys showed up.

 

The CM says he already has people willing to help on Committee. My only issue, which I plan on clearing up soon, is participation from the CO. If I am not happy with their response, then I told them I am definately out of the picture. I am not naive.

 

OA involvment will only be delivery, if needed. Cub involvement, Be at Pack meetings and such, no official position.

 

By the way, Thanks and keep coming at me. I need all angles considered, do not hold back.

 

 

(This message has been edited by bigbovine)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmmm...

 

So not bein' a long-timer, there's somethin' that yeh need to be aware of in terms of BSA council professionals.

 

While they are generally good and well-meaning folks, their position is an ill-defined and almost impossible one. In particular, they get evaluated based on stuff that they really don't have much control over - FOS contributions, numbers of kids, and numbers of units. For their own professional advancement, they also have to be mobile, movin' up in positions steadily, which typically means movin' to a new council.

 

Da result is that the best way for 'em to "play the game" is to start new units even when not everything is in place to make a new unit successful. It ups their "numbers" for the year, and often by the time da new unit fails (or cannibalizes a nearby unit), they have moved on. Da worst way to play the game, but one that is often chosen, is to play games to artificially inflate the numbers of kids or troops "on paper."

 

So I think yeh need to make your own evaluation in terms of the viability of two units in your area, and the viability of a start-up troop. One pack of 35 boys typically means a Webelos 2 den of 4-5 in a good year. Average for crossovers even when your recruitin' is solid is typically 60% or so, especially as some "distance" develops with da pack. With da usual first year retention issues, that makes for 2 boys per year. That's not enough. In most areas, there are 2-3 packs for every troop, and to build a healthy unit yeh need to be recruitin' from that many. Sad to say it, but readin' between the lines my guess would be that startin' a new troop will kill your current troop, and perhaps kill both. Yeh certainly haven't presented anything to suggest that your area can support both.

 

I also think yeh need to understand how much harder it is to be SM of a new troop vs. SM of a startup troop. Those are just very different jobs. Wracking my brain, I can't think of too many startup troops that have succeeded without the SM and a few others havin' experience in the roles previously. There's just a lot of stuff in place already in an existing troop, eh? A committee that has worked together, some years of history providin' norms and expectations, a former SM around to offer perspective or support. Startup troops are different. There's a lot less structure in place and a lot more "storming". Yeh need to expect some differences in vision, some degree of conflict, a lot more emotional energy on your part. About 3 times the work for the first year, and double the work for the next two.

 

Now I'm not meanin' to be too discouragin' here. Troops by and large live or die by leaders of the right sort, who enjoy the outdoors and enjoy kids and work well with other adults and are willin' to give a big chunk of their lives to other people's children. Yeh might be able to make a go of it, in the end. But yeh need to go into that with eyes wide open, and yeh need to be thoughtful about da impact on all the boys in both troops.

 

As for the other bit, all I can do is take yeh at your word, eh? But let the old furry fellah offer one slight additional caution. We guys aren't always the best at figurin' out what's goin' on in the heads of our partners from da Venus planet, eh? Can't tell yeh how many divorces I've seen where the guy says "I thought we were doin' great" and the woman says "I've felt neglected for years and he just doesn't get it." Take it from me, mate. When the wife is sayin' yeh need to be closer, what she's really sayin' is she needs more of you. Shortenin' a drive but doublin' your scoutin' commitment is probably not goin' to be the answer.

 

Beavah