Should BSA "own" the units? Should the current relationship with chartering organizations be re-examined?

[moosetracker 132]

SSScout - You confused me. First you say GSA is better, then BSA is Better, then GSA is better..

 

If your local GSA is doing well that is great! If the get a fantastic leader that will happen.. Just like an exceptional Leader in BSA may create a troop with 100 or more boys in attendance. With both poor adult leadership can take a healthy unit and turn it into a ghost town.

 

It may reflect on the specific BSA or GSA unit, what they can control after working within the confines of the National directives of how it needs to organize.. I don't think that reflects anything upon the way their National Head organization model.

 

Both have their plus's & minus's.. But, I think if the GSA groups come and go with the leader, and the girls in the group. (From what I understand, each unit stays with the same age level, so best they can hope for is until the girls age out).. I guess I would prefer the BSA model, which allows the Pack & Troop to cycle and countinue to live on for many generations..

 

For some reason, most crews I have witness seems to more mirror the GSA in that respect. They come and go with either the leader, or when the original members of the crew age out. Don't know what causes that in them..

[qwazse 4344]

I can only judge by the youth coming into my crew.

 

Most GS come in with strong organizational skills. Maybe that's because there is no CO to provide some things a lot of our boys take for granted. With their peers, they know how to generate fun. They are the ones who pack in speakers so we can have a dance party on the beach. Around the campfire, they are the ones singing until midnight!

 

Most non-GS (male or female) think way out of the box. They have big ideas, make friendship with strangers, and could care less about fitting in molds. Age differences don't phase them much. They are the ones who get the idea that growth means looking for the kid who's missing out, sitting at his shelter, and letting him make you a cup of tea.

 

Getting them to pick up a little of each other's gifts and talents is the fun part of advising a crew, and being part of a CO who has a similar mission helps a little, I think.

 

Obviously, by age 17, any scout or venturer who sticks with the program is cut from rare stock. Perhaps there is a national structure that would suit some of them, but a lot of them are looking for community, and it's the CO's responsibility to model that. In that context, churches, temples, and fire companies fit the bill because they are "called" to get into the nitty-gritty of life. I have no problem with a bunch of small BSA units in every religious or civic group in town.

 

So, in spite of the shortcomings of the CO model, it has a slew of perks that centralized national organizations are in no position to provide.

[fred8033 1593]

RememberSchiff wrote: "Give the units with an absentee COR the right to select another representative to attend and vote at district and council meetings. "

 

Great answer. When the local councils merged, the COs were given the vote. They had no clue. It was a laugh at the district round table with scouters rolling their eyes.

 

............

 

I like the current model of BSA providing the concepts, rules and materials for a program to be owned and run by the CO.

 

BUT changes are needed to address key weaknesses. I'm not sure what solution is, but the problems are recurrant and based on absentee or barely involved COs.

 

In my experience, the vast majority of COs are absentee or just barely involved. I really doubt many church elders or pastors regularly monitor, guide or correct their owned units.

 

Sooo....

 

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#1 Legal or practical ownership? It's a grey situation at best. Who's responsible? Who's liable? Is CO unit ownership just a BSA liability shield? If so, it seems like a weak one.

 

BSA has 99% of the contact by "owning" the camps, the training, and the program materials; and, registering the leaders. BSA (thru the councils and districts) runs all the activities (district derbies, university of scouting, council level youth training, etc.)

 

I bet most COs (pastors, church elders) wouldn't know the name or recognize the cubmaster or scoutmaster when he(she) walks in the door. Most COs just sign the charter every year. That's about it. ... AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT ... BUT ... the absentee CO is to approve the unit leader character and knowledge? And to monitor and "own" the unit? If BSA contracts with the CO and BSA knows the COs are usually not doing much on their side, it seems like BSA has a big liability.

 

The problem is that an absentee CO is the normal condition. IMHO (not a legal scholar) when it's accepted knowledge that the majority of COs are not that involved (i.e. not screening volunteers, training or monitoring quality), then it seems BSA doesn't have that strong legal coverage when problems happen.

 

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#2 Fixing problem units? With time, leaders change. Especially in Cub Scout packs. When units get off course, get poor leadership or no leadership, who fixes it? District execs can coach, but they have no power. COs are mostly absent and have no concept of what the problems are. The result is that to fix broken units, the units often need to first crash and burn. Or worse ... the units keep going as they are for years not delivering the scouting promise and damaging everyone's perception of what scouting is about.

 

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#3 Conflicting youth program concepts? ... Except LDS ... Scouting groups are often viewed as an "outside group" that the church is providing a service too by letting them use church space. It's common that "internal" church youth groups don't even get involved with their church's scouting unit. And vice versa. BUT ... the church youth groups are tightly coupled to the church (monitored, supported, overseen, fixed, guided, ...). The scouting unit is the "outside" group.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Hiya SaintCad,

 

Yep, not only is your troop expected to be "almost" a youth group for the CO, it is in actual fact a youth group of the CO. The BSA provides scouting materials to help the CO achieve its aims with youth. There are lots of churches that offer youth programming to those who aren't members, just because they believe that doing so is consistent with their religious calling. You are a volunteer for one of 'em, apparently. That's quite a responsibility, because they are ultimately on the hook for your actions and choices. You could cost 'em their church, but they take that risk because of their mission and their trust in you.

 

Yep, the liability insulation for the BSA is real. For unit activities, the BSA acts as insurer and program materials provider, but it is not the "superior" or supervisor of the unit. The BSA routinely is excluded from unit liability cases in pre-trial motions on that basis. It still acts as insurer, of course, but once the insurance limit is reached, the balance falls to the Chartered Organization. Now, the BSA holds well thought out tiered insurance coverage and is very committed to protecting its unit leaders and chartered partners, but yeh can certainly imagine cases like serial molestation where the BSA's insurance coverage would be exceeded.

 

Fixin' problem units? I forget what our ratio of DEs to units is, but certainly they have a hard time keepin' track, let alone supervising. I've worked with Chartered Orgs. on any number of unit rescues, and it generally works out well. Churches are often used to "tempests in teapots", eh? Now, I'll grant that the ones that do the best IMHO are the chartered organizations that run other youth programs as well, because they have that sort of background. The ones that are more problematic are the "Friends of" groups and such.

 

Conflicting concepts? I don't know. I think sometimes this sort of thing happens. Often it's lower-level folks who aren't gettin' the message, rather than the actual IH or COR. My feeling is that's the sort of thing a unit should try to fix by being a good citizen and reaching out to the other members of its sponsoring organization. And I'm not as worried about "absentee" COs. I view that in most cases as sound management. Pastors and IH's are busy people, and by and large they are "absentee" to most of their affiliated groups which are run by various church members or others. The point is to find and rely on good people who care about their ministry and trust 'em to keep things goin' until you're invited to the Eagle COH or Cub Scout B&G.

 

Yep, LDS runs a more integrated program, and a lot of the Catholic and many of the Methodist units are also more associated with their charter partners in various ways. And yeh know what? Nationally, those are the 3 most numerous.

 

Beavah

 

[CubsRgr8 10]

Should we try to move back towards encouraging (public) schools to be COs or would BSA have to make to(o) many concessions for that?

 

In a word - NO. School administrations are too scared of lawsuits to allow BSA units do what makes the BSA uniquely successful at attracting and retaining boys - provide an outdoor program designed just for them. Schools would require the rapid elimination of anything to do with guns, knives, arrows, tent camping, cooking (fire is dangerous!), etc. No, let's not go down the road of trying to make BSA fit in with the nanny mentality that runs so many of our public schools, regardless of whether or not BSA changes its rules about the three Gs. Don't want to deal with a religious CO? Then talk to your local Rotary or Lions club, or set up your own non-profit LLC.

 

[DigitalScout 75]

I am amazed how well the BSA system works. I can't think of an equivalent. There can be a Jewish CO, a Catholic CO, an LDS Co, a less-than-religious CO, etc. and everyone gets along great. Packs and troops can focus on camping, high adventure, community service or other emphasis. As a scout, you can pick and choose the pack or troop which your suits your interests. It's really an amazing system.

[howarthe 42]

No, I don't think BSA should own the units. I like the chartered organization system, but I have been disappointed in the absentee nature of the chartered organization. A representative did show up for our blue and gold banquet, but they don't involve themselves when we choose pack leaders. In the past I have volunteered in LDS packs, and they take a great deal of interest in choosing the pack leadership. My current pack is chartered but the local Kiwanis, but they don't even give us space for our meetings. I think they just fill in the line on our charter.

 

While i was surfing around the Internet I did find a pack once that was chartered by an organization with a name that suggests that their only purpose is to charter the pack. Something like Parents of Scouts in Smalltown, USA. I suspect they had to incorporate themselves as a non-profit. I don't know how difficult or expensive that would be, but if they could do that, I wonder if the parent-teacher organization could charter a unit. I don't think schools should.

[packsaddle 753]

That raises an interesting idea: units forming their own chartering entities. I suppose that the unit parents could form an LLC for that single purpose. What might be required is some legal preparation (a few $hundred around these parts) and then the appropriate tax accounting (a $few hundred more at least to get started). Been there, doing that for a different purpose.

 

But after that it can run fairly smoothly and if there was EVER a situation in which local option could apply, this is IT. The basic membership standards would be enforced by the unit itself with none of the CO religious baggage that it didn't want to have. And they could change such application of membership requirements essentially on a whim if they liked.

This would be an interesting test of the idea that BSA is mostly about the 'numbers' (membership and money) if the LLC basically took the DADT approach to all membership matters.

Interesting idea.