sherminator505 10 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I have a few questions for the group. Feel free to tackle one or all. 1. When did we as an organization go from promoting a movement to advertising a product? How did this happen? 2. When did we as an organization go from discussing values as being essential to becoming a complete citizen to discussing values in a vacuum, with citizenship taking a back seat? How did this happen? 3. Why was it necessary to rebrand OA as "Scouting 's National Honor Society" when it doesn' t function as such and we seem to lack the will to make it so? 4. When we came out with the stickers that read "America is returning to the values that Scouting never left," what exactly did we mean? I am looking forward to honest, candid replies... Link to post Share on other sites
Papadaddy 121 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 1. 1910 Baden-Powell started a worldwide movement. Boyce, Seton and West turned it into a business. Miki, where are you?(This message has been edited by Papadaddy) Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 It was more Beard, and West that turned scouting into a business. Seton had major issues with West over the direction of the program, and left the movement....none the less, you'll never see a square knot for Seton as money talks Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 sorry Sherminator - I knew you made a statement about citizenship in the other thread, but didn't see it posed as a question.. #1) I don't know if I see it quite like Pappadaddy & le Voyager.. Oh, the fact that they have for a long time teetered on that edge of being more Business then non-profit has been there for a while.. Membership to the district execs is not so much about bringing kids into the program to provide great fun programs while teaching values & citizenship, as it is to pay for the product they sell, pay for the camps they sponsor, and numbers mean revenue also in getting donations from wealthy sponsors.. While the low end of the paid employees suffer with below minimum wage (camp-staff) to low wages (DE's & camp rangers etc) as you start going up in the food chain you can get yourself a nice cushy income... But they were only always teetering.. Uncle Sam has yet to catch them and label them a business.. The product thing if trying to keep from being sued for wrongful deaths, sex molestation crimes, and other bone-headed moves on the part of Scouters and CO's while conducting functions under the BSA flag.. But I doubt they bill themselves as that to their wealthy sponsership. #2) Right now the values of BSA are coming into conflict with being a citizen as the values for being a citizen change & BSA does not.. We cannot teach our youth to discriminate the very same people that it will be unlawful for our children to grow up and discriminate against while dealing with the world at large.. Our Values are in conflict with themselves we can't teach to work well with people within all diversities, and then also discriminate.. Their own members are seeing the hypocracy in that and starting to call them on it. But I guess I would see citizenship as being better taught then values. As stated units are not so good about picking Adult Leaders with values, especially if they are in need warm bodies to fill positions to keep the unit going.. We have heard accounts of drunks that come to units totally smashed, and it is still hard to get them kicked out.. Wife beaters, adulterer, Leaders who bully the whole unit into submission ..etc.. Also religion takes a backseat unless the unit only caters to youth in their own denomination.. Units mostly leave this up to the family.. We are better (or at least more comfortable) at teaching citizenship.. 3 citizenship merit badges, having a presence for 4th of July or Veterans day, allowing the boys to vote for their own leadership and performing service projects for our communities.. #3) and #4) I cant say.. Not involved in the OA and never seen the bumper sticker, but I would fear putting it on my car.. Dont mind I am proud of my Eagle Scout.. But would not want to tell the public I am proud of the values that BSA is currently promoting until they end discrimination.. Nor do I believe in the saying.. Maybe the sticker was put out shortly after 9/11 when everyone became more united in Citizenship as Citizenship is in itself a value.. But, that is just a guess, as to my mind that would be the only thing that would have made any sense.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker) Link to post Share on other sites
infoscouter 11 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Sometimes when we talk about citizenship as an aim, we get it mixed up with patriotism or even nationalism. Citizenship is taught everytime a Scout participates in a service project, or votes in a patrol leader election. Everytime a Venturer staffs a Cub Scout camp, or a Cub Scout picks up trash in the schoolyard, she or he is demonstrating citizenship. They are living the concept of improving their community, of being contributing citizens. Yes, the patriotic aspects - respect for the flag, knowledge of our government and its functions are part of it too. But being a good citizen imbues many aspects of what we do without an overt declaration. While Baden Powell started Scouting in Great Britain, and he started out forming citizens of the British Empire, we shortly became a world-wide movement, he saw the potential for forming citzens of the world. I don't think citizenship has taken a back seat at all. We practice it all the time - it just doesn't get labeled that way. Link to post Share on other sites
shortridge 184 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 4. They go at least as far back as 2002. See http://rapidcityjournal.com/article_5d518ac4-bd1b-5493-be10-aacb98250762.html What do they mean? Well, they strike me as a slogan you'd see at the tail end of a GOP presidential candidate's television ads - standard conservative political verbiage. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 1. When did we as an organization go from promoting a movement to advertising a product? How did this happen? Yah, with West. Been interestin', as the movement still continued among da volunteers for many decades, even as da corporate side increased with the membership growth. So long as we were in boom times there wasn't too much of a conflict, but after we peaked da corporate side became a bigger drag. 2. When did we as an organization go from discussing values as being essential to becoming a complete citizen to discussing values in a vacuum, with citizenship taking a back seat? How did this happen? Not sure. 1990s I think. Marketing of da "Timeless Values" thing was initially targeted at older high-net-worth donors, I reckon. Seems like that's da targeted appeal. Some folks liked it and rolled it out toward parents as well. 3. Why was it necessary to rebrand OA as "Scouting 's National Honor Society" when it doesn' t function as such and we seem to lack the will to make it so? For da same reason that when a subdivision paves over a meadow, they name it "Rolling Meadows". When da thing doesn't speak for itself, yeh try to develop a slogan that will appeal in a way that da actual product won't. 4. When we came out with the stickers that read "America is returning to the values that Scouting never left," what exactly did we mean? We did? Never seen that one. I reckon we were referring to Duty to God and Country, Helping Other People at All Times, being Trustworthy and Loyal and Helpful and all that... Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
BadenP 93 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Sherm It was when the corporate types took control which some believe go all the way back to the end of West's time. Definitely you can say by the early 70's when the great urban experiment failed, membership plummeted and the guys at National appealed to the big corporate money types to help bail the BSA out of the hole it dug for itself. Then came the glitzy corporate fund raisers with all their crass made in Japan crap, etc. The BSA stopped being an organization with a vision of helping youth become responsible citizens and adults and develop an appreciation for the outdoors, and instead the new vision at National became MONEY and MEMBERSHIP, as it still is today. What's next putting a McDonalds or KFC in Philmont, N. Tier or Seabase?? The new boyscout motto may soon become "Be Economically Astute!" Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Our former SE always ended his standard stump speech talking about the loss of donations due to BSA's values with the line, "Our values are not for sale." Of course they're not for sale. They've already been sold. You just have to understand the real currency. Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I don't have much respect for West who was more of a bean counter lawyer and glad hand, not the outdoor type. Seton, who had worked with Powell directly knew well Powell's vision, of which West didn't. Had Seton been able to advance that vision, scouting could of stayed true to that course. But,it is what it is... the bottom line is everything Link to post Share on other sites
Kahuna 172 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Although West certainly was responsible for making Scouting more business and less movement than in Britain, it was really Alden Barber & Co. who created the mess we have today. As has been mentioned, the 1970's mark a sharp line in the direction the BSA has taken. It has never been the same since and the men who run it today are those who started their professional careers under Barber. Link to post Share on other sites
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